Cleveland homicides up in 2011

[ellisonz]

Published: Saturday, December 31, 2011, 9:07 PM Updated: Sunday, January 01, 2012, 9:08 AM
By Pat Galbincea, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A hot summer of shootings led to an increase in homicide cases in Cleveland in 2011.

The city had seen 88 slayings within its borders as of Thursday, the latest day figures were available from the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's office. The total was up from 77 in the city in 2010. But still a far cry from totals in years past.

Cleveland had 122 homicides in 2009. Killings in the city stayed in the triple digits during the 1970s and '80s and the first half of the '90s. The numbers reached beyond 300 in some years in the '70s.

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Ninety-three percent of the homicides in the city in 2011 involved guns, and 80 percent of the homicides in Cuyahoga County involved firearms.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/cleveland_homicides_up_in_2011.html

Cleveland is partnering with the ATF, trying to quell youth violence, and held a small buy back program. Do you think there should be more buy back programs?

[ManiacJoe]

1. Gun buy backs can serve a useful purpose.

However, their usefulness is never what the desires of the organizers are. Criminals do not turn in their guns.

What are your expectations from gun buy backs?

[ellisonz]

3. I'm not sure about the desires of the organizers.

Reduce the supply of improperly stored firearms...by coaxing people who don't really want/use their gun to get rid of them so they aren't stolen, used in a snap violent decision.

Chipping away. What you need to ask yourself is how since studies show many crimes are committed with illegally obtained firearms they get them in the first place?

Happy New Year.

[DonP]

4. Unintended consequences of "buy backs"

The rules at "Buy Backs" are "no questions asked". As a result, it provides an easy venue to dispose of guns used in serious crimes that otherwise might be traced.

They are very popular, here in Chicago, as places to dump murder weapons since there is no chance they will ever be traced and walk away with a $100 gift card on top of covering your ass legally.

In general, "buy backs" are more well intentioned stupidity.

[ellisonz]

6. That's one gun that won't be used again...

Is $100 worth another murder potentially? One thing is sure, if a criminal obtains an illegal gun, it will probably be used in the commission of a crime. Obviously, it should be stated that many big city mayors, like myself are opposed to the current gun control regime that floods the streets with arms, many of which make their way to the black market. Also, I'd think that if you committed a murder you would probably want to get rid of the weapon in a way rather than handing it over to the city. I mean, you get rid of that gun ASAP...doesn't seem to me like you'd want to hang on to it until there's a buyback program.

http://mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/members/members.shtml

Chicago Gun Buy-Back Program Nets 6,705 Weapons
Jul 27, 2007

A record number of gun owners turned in their guns to city officials, for a $100 incentive. Reportedly 6,705 weapons were turned in for the "no questions asked" program to get guns off the streets of Chicago.

Officials of the City of Chicago have been attempting to get guns off the streets of Chicago by offering a $100 pre-paid gift card for each weapon that is turned in.

People who turned in weapons were asked no questions as they surrendered their weapons. Mayor Richard Daley said there would be no questions asked of the people who dropped of dangerous weapons.

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Families who have lost loved ones to gun violence appealed to Chicago residents to turn in guns. Families who lost a family members due to gun violence got the message out to the public. Families effectively made emotional pleas to the public, as they spoke of their tragic losses due to gun violence.

http://voices.yahoo.com/chicago-gun-buy-back-program-nets-6705-weapons-458159.html

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

12. Cleveland...

...has 81 police officers which were laid-off during the first half of last year. Perhaps this has a role.

As of 2003 the department had 38 officers per 10,000 residents. Approximately 44% of officers in Cleveland work responding to calls. While Cleveland's number of officers is higher by population ratio, but the number responding to calls is well below the national average. Combine this with a budgetary layoff and this is not a surprise.

[DonP]

13. What percentage of the 6,705 guns were already used in capital crimes?

None? Doubt it. Most? Doubt that too. Some? Probably.

Have Mama or Grandmama turn it in for a $100 card and the whole crime just disappears. That's a comfort to a victim's family - if only they knew the murder gun was off the street. (That's assuming of course, that some of the guns aren't resold for profit as some cities have done with turn-ins and confiscated guns.)

Having personally seen one turn in 6 or 7 years ago and seen several other TV close ups of the Chicago buy back "guns", many were rusted blobs that were never going to be used again for much beyond driving tent pegs. Others were pellet guns and of course, some shotguns and .22s and of course, there's always the same photogenic 1st generation Colt SAA that the chief holds up as an "example" of the guns they are clearing off the street.

Funny how each Chicago gun buy back, 3 or 4 years in a row, brings out another well maintained 1st generation nickel plated Colt. Almost like a cop pulls it out of the bottom dresser drawer for the cameras, isn't it?

But the Chicago police have such a record for honesty and fair treatment, they'd never pull a PR stunt like that. From the city that invented "Free Speech Zones" at the Democrat Convention? Nah.

But the question I'm asking you and the other "if it saves only one life it's worth it" types is, how many crimes are you willing to cover up with the no questions asked no ballistic testing etc. policy to get some guns off the street? There's nothing stopping any citizen from turning in their gun any time to the local police station ... except the issue of ballistic checking. Since so many people agree with getting all those guns off the street, why do they only seem to come forward when a bribe is offerred?

Do you really think gang members are turning in their working guns for a $100 Wal-Mart card when they are already paying $300 and up a day to rent a 9mm or a 40 from their neighborhood dealer when they need it?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. The brighter lights amongst them will soak the guns in bleach for a week...

...thus ensuring no ballistic test will work.

[ManiacJoe]

18. How does bleach affect the ballistic tests?

[X_Digger]

20. Ruuuuuuust :)

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. Bleach (sodium hypochlorite) is an strong oxidizer, and attacks metals.

Near-instant corrosion. I've used it to absolutely, positively destroy hard drive platters.

A gun would be a blob of rust after a week soaking in it- hell, three days would probably do it.

[DissedByBush]

23. You'd think a drill press would be faster

Slap on a reamer and the rifling will disappear in under a minute.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. It would, but the bleach will also do for the serial number.

[gejohnston]

19. the biggest problem is they get the wrong guns

That said, if I happen to come across anything made by Clerke, I'll be the first in line. There is a second problem in cities like Kansas City. If some church on the MO side is having a "buy back" and someone from the Kansas side turns one in, the church and the "seller" could be violating the Gun Control Act 1968.

Something like this would be more useful:
http://www.firearmscanada.com/firearms_removal_service.html

If Daley was such a great progressive, why did he privatize the parking meters? If my information is correct, he sold them for a lump sum. The coins you put in, all goes to some one percenter's pocket.

[krispos42]

11. Well, I would assume that if they found one used in a murder...

...they would investigate as well as possible. If they found the fingerprints of the seller on the gun, for example, I do imagine the police would pay a visit. "We didn't ask, but we figured it out", you see.


Or I imagine they have a couple of high-res cameras there that take 2 or 3 shots per second of the transactions. Since a gun-buying program isn't likely to be a fast-action event, they can trade frames-per-second to megapixels.

Probably hidden, of course, as fits the post-9/11 surveillance state that give Republicans hard-ons.

So if the gun comes back to a murder, they just look through the surveillance photos, find the person handing over the gun in question, and backtrack.

If they can't pull fingerprints, or if the fingerprints don't come back to anybody, there's always the DMV database of pictures.

And of course, they can access other public-area surveillance camera systems to trace that person's journey to the gun buy-back, now that they have a picture of their clothing and face. Subway cameras, bus cameras, ATM cameras, etc. They know exactly where that person was in space and time, so they can then work either forwards or backwards to find out where they were going or where they came from.

And if that person stops to buy something with plastic or withdraw cash, then they have a name, address, and account number.

[DonP]

15. Sadly, none of the above

It would make sense, even if they didn't try to connect it to who turned it in, but there is no checking or tracking at all.

It's one of the conditions that characters like Father "Flaky" Pfleger and Jesse Jackson (Sr.) put on assisting in getting cooperation in the community for a buy back program. It's truly a "hand me the gun here's your card" situation. They don't even record the name of who gets the card, that's part of the deal, at least in Chicago.

About 7 years ago the Illinois State Rifle Association (I'm a member) heard about a Chicago Buy Back and we gathered up about 14 or 15 (IIRC) old single shot shotguns, some rusty .22 revolvers and .22 rifles from members. True, unsafe to fire junk. We turned in all 15 at several of the five collection centers and received 13 $100 gift cards (2 were so rusty they said they didn't even qualify as recognizable guns anymore) We used the $1,300, courtesy of Mayor Daley, to buys some new Ruger 10/22s for our Junior shooting program. Thanks Richie!

They changed the rules after that for Chicago and Cook County Residents only. The cops aren't worrying about the guy with 2 or 3 9mm semi autos in a Dominick's grocery bag, but that guy with a sticker on his car from Will County can't be trusted.

FWIW, there are no Republicans in Chicago for the last 20 years. The spy cameras and listening stations all over the city, were another Daley brainstorm. He hated the 1st and 5th amendments almost as much as he did the 2nd I think.

The guns are thrown into piles at collection stations at churches and community centers after being laid out for media photo ops, no record, written or video is made at the collection centers of who turned in what. They don't even run the serial numbers for stolen weapons of what they collect. There are "stories" of cops at some collections centers stopping at McD's on the way dowtown with the collection and selectively picking over what's there for their possible use (e.g. dresser drawer).

Ultimately, what's left are dumped into a truck and thrown into the #4 blast furnace at the old Inland Steel Plant in Indiana (now Arcelor Mittal Steel).

What's funny ironic, if not funny ha ha too, is that Arcelor sells specialty Advanced high strengh and Ultra high strength steels to gun manufacturers. Guess where the metal from many of those "buy back" guns winds up?

Ah, but it makes the gun control people's hearts feel all warm and fuzzy and if we can make just one control freak feel good it's worth letting crime guns and criminals slip through our fingers, right? <sarcasm>

[krispos42]

22. Interesting.

Thanks for the info.

[Hoyt]

26. Yet, you are probably against micro-stamping and other attempts to aid law-enforcement.

[oneshooter]

27. Do you believe that microstamping works as advertised? n/t

[Hoyt]

30. I believe it might help in some cases. I know some pro-gunners are afraid they might leave casings

at a crime scene, or some guy they sold guns to in a back alley uses one in a big massacre, or something else happens where somebody has to do some splaining. What really cracks me up are those who think some criminal is going to go out to the range and fill a bag full of spent, microstamped casings and frame them.

Seems an insignificant cost to me and hardly an intrusion on the "gun culture." I bet you guys would really squeal about registration.

[S_B_Jackson]

31. Microstamping has some serious technical weaknesses....

Professor George Krivosta wrote a thorough examination of Microstamping technology in a paper written in a forensic science professional journal:
The Association of Firearm and Toolmark Examiners Journal--Volume 38 Number 1--Winter 2006

You might find it worthwhile read. In his paper he concludes (bolding for emphasis is mine):

The common layman seems to believe that two bullets fired from the same weapon are identical, down to the very last striation placed on them by the weapon. The trained firearms examiner knows how far that is from reality. The layman might also take as gospel that if you could find a way to place a number onto the tip of a firing pin, then you could certainly read it in the impression. Not until this research was performed and many test fires examined from a firing pin that had a known recognizable pattern, did it become apparent how much change could take place, and why matching firing pin impressions can be so challenging. Observing a firing pin mark with four to five overlapping impacts as the result of a single firing was certainly unexpected. After inserting the pin into a number of different firearms and have, in this researcher’s opinion, the best made weapon deliver the lowest percentage of readable impressions was also very unexpected. At the same time, the weapon producing the highest percentage of readable impressions was incapable of firing three shots in a row. Certainly this research has shown that implementing this technology will be much more complicated than burning a serial number on a few parts and dropping them into firearms being manufactured.

www.nssf.org/share/legal/docs/AFTEVol38No1KrivostaNanoTag.pdf

[DonP]

29. It doesn't matter because none of the "Buy Back" guns are traced anyway

Comprehension issues again I see.

Most, or all of the guns under discussion, have their original serial number perefectly visible. The agreement the police make is; no questions asked. None of the guns are traced. You know, just like your buddy Holder's Fast & Furious policy?

It wouldn't matter if they hid a secret decoder ring in every gun. The police don't keep track of who turned in which guns, they don't record the serial numbers and make no attempt at tracing them. Microstamping, if it actually existed, would make no difference.

But it doesn't exist in the real world and very likely never will. Too easy to defeat, too expensive and ultimately nobody but the politically connected company that make the equipment really wants the idea implemented.

And besides, most of us who actually buy and shoot guns think it's stupid and will pressure Congress to stay way the fuck away from it. You know, like we do with all the other stupid ideas for easing more expense and government control into the issue. Not gonna happen.

[krispos42]

32. Are you for or against National Security Letters? n/t

[oneshooter]

2. How can the city buy back something they never owned in the first place? n/t

[ileus]

5. I was told to go back to my hotel

While down at the dock close to the R&R HOF back in February.

[S_B_Jackson]

7. Of course there should be more gun buy-back programs...

just as those who might be interested in aquiring firearms for their collections should attend those same buy-backs and offer better money for quality firearms - I'd love to acquire a Colt Python, a Sig P210, a WWII vintage 1911, a WWII or Korea-war era M1 Garand, etc.

Person to person sale, can be done right in front of AFT agents, Cuyahoga Sherrifs Dept, Cleveland PD - all perfectly legal. The seller gets a better selling price, the purchaser a good quality firearm at a great value. Win-win.

[rl6214]

8. Buy backs are a waste of time

The only firearms sold are obsolete.

[S_B_Jackson]

9. Possibly, but so is getting dragged around the mall by one's spouse to shop for

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2012, 08:56 PM - Edit history (1)

post-Christmas "bargains". All you have to lose is your time....

[Simo 1939_1940]

14. This is what I've heard.

People sell family heirlooms, junk guns etc.

[rrneck]

10. No. nt

[DissedByBush]

16. I don't know a thing about Cleveland's gun laws

But I'm guessing they're one of those "strict gun laws" cities.

Searching...

Yep, I'm right!

And, no, gun buy back programs don't work. At best they're a feel-good and a waste of money and resources.

[SteveW]

25. ...And Austin murder rates are down in 2011...

You said:

"Cleveland is partnering with the ATF, trying to quell youth violence, and held a small buy back program. Do you think there should be more buy back programs?"

The short answer is No because it is a waste of taxpayer money. If some private entity wants to run a program without taxpayer support, let 'em. Some folks can benefit from extra food when they turn in their junkers. (One recent "buy-back" in Austin, Texas, distributed food coupons worth up to $100 for each gun; I have a junker for who ever holds another of these security sitcoms, and a busted revolver will net me $100 in food.)

Incidentally, "buy back" implies that the government owned any guns turned in in the first place. They didn't and don't.

[burf]

28. Minneapolis gunshot injuries down too.

Whatsamatta with the Cleveland?

[S_B_Jackson]

33. Meanwhile murders in Houston, Tx fell yet again to a 50 year low....

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Houston-murders-lowest-since-1965-2435247.php

[bb]Houston homicides take a sharp tumble
2011 tally is likely a 50-year record low

By ANITA HASSAN, HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Updated 11:54 p.m., Sunday, January 1, 2012

Houston will likely finish 2011 with the lowest murder count the city has seen in nearly 50 years, preliminary Houston Police Department figures show.

HPD recorded 195 murders for the year as of Friday, a 27.5 percent decrease from the previous year's total of 269. (continued at link)