It really is no surprise

[MichaelHarris]

that the gunman who shot and killed a park ranger and mother of two with an assault rifle. How many was it this year killed and maimed with the AK variant? How many will show up in this thread and consider an AK copy to be "low power"? Search this forum, it's been claimed over and over here. Wonder if this ranger thought it was "low power"? "A gunman shot dead a park ranger in the American state of Washington before disappearing into the Mount Rainier national park armed with an assault rifle. " http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/02/manhunt-us-park-ranger-shooting?newsfeed=true There is a chance he killed others before the park shooting.

Many of you claimed the IHOP shooter used a semi auto version, I showed you you were wrong. You should really look at the numbers of crimes committed with these weapons, you should really check the body count for 2011. You would be very surprised. It goes up every year, more and more shootings have been done with AK clones every year. Come defend it, I know you will. People are dying but your toy is safe.

[LAGC]

1. And what percentage of mass-shootings are carried out with rifles again?

And would have the "Assault Weapon" Ban prevented any of them?

[aikoaiko]

2. Would it be less of a tragedy if it were a different weapon?

Seriously, do you think bad guys won't use other firearms in their quest to evade police?

[rrneck]

3. What's your point? nt

[gejohnston]

4. Many of you claimed the IHOP shooter used a semi auto version, I showed you you were wrong.

You just said he used a full auto version.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. The MAK-90 used by the Ihop Shooter was allegedly

illegally altered to fire full-auto.

[krispos42]

5. Thirty years ago, nobody was murdered with Glock pistols

Now, thousands are a year. Looks like it's time to ban them, right?





Thirty years ago, nobody was being killed by the .40 S&W rounds. Now, hundreds or thousands are a year. Looks like it's time to ban them, right?






You can whine and complain all you want about the rise and fall in popularity of different types of firearms among the general public. It doesn't change the fact that the trend for the total homicide rate is "slightly downward" and has been for the past 10 years.

[ellisonz]

6. R.I.P. Margaret Anderson

"The Thin Green Line"

[Straw Man]

7. High/Low?

[div class = excerpt]How many will show up in this thread and consider an AK copy to be "low power"? Search this forum, it's been claimed over and over here. Wonder if this ranger thought it was "low power"?
An AK is an intermediate-power rifle. This has nothing to do with any kind of euphemism or subjective characterization: it is simply the technical classification. The impetus for the development of assault rifles was the need for an automatic weapon that was more controllable in automatic fire than those using a high-powered battle-rifle cartridge like .30-06 (Browning Automatic Rifle) but was also more powerful than submachine guns using pistol-caliber cartridges like .45 ACP (Thompson) or 9mm (STEN or MP-40). The power of the cartridge was an integral factor in the design concept: weaker than battle rifle, more powerful than submachine gun.

In a semi-auto variant, the raison d'etre for the weaker cartridge -- controllability in full-auto fire -- is gone. What you are left with is a semi-auto rifle firing a cartridge that is weaker than that of many commercial semi-auto hunting and target rifles, like the Remington 742 and the Springfield M1A1. Those are truly "high-powered" rifles; the AK and AR "assault weapons" are not. What does remain from the original AK and AR design concept, however, is the ammunition capacity: standard magazines for these rifles hold 30 rounds, except in the states that restrict them.

In target shooting, anything that is not "smallbore" (.22 or .17 rimfire) is referred to as "high-power," including the relatively weak .223 (5.56mm) of the AR. This may be the source of some confusion, since in a military context .223 isn't considered "high-power." The AK's 7.62x39mm cartridge is more powerful than the AR's .223, but they are both classed as intermediate cartridges.

That said, many people have been killed with smallbore firearms, due in part to the sheer number of these guns in circulation. The gist is that caliber is a red herring in the discussion of gun crime.

[div class = excerpt]You should really look at the numbers of crimes committed with these weapons, you should really check the body count for 2011. You would be very surprised. It goes up every year, more and more shootings have been done with AK clones every year.
It's your claim, so why don't you provide us with the stats? Are you claiming that these crimes would not have been possible with another weapon? Otherwise, why the focus on the AK? It's not the only rifle capable of killing a human being.

[div class = excerpt]Come defend it, I know you will.
Defend what? The AK? Against what? What's your point? Are you calling for another ban? Make a proposal: then we'll have something to talk about.

[div class = excerpt]People are dying but your toy is safe.
And now we get to the heart of it: the moral posturing and guilt-mongering. You own firearms, do you not? Tell me what you have, and I'll find someone who has been killed with one. Then it will be your turn to "defend it."

[Remmah2]

31. foot-pounds; energy

Does anyone comprehend engineering and science?

[GreenStormCloud]

8. She was shot with a shotgun, not a rifle.

Not that it matters to you.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017143010_ranger02m.html?syndication=rss

"She was shot when the driver apparently stepped out of the vehicle with a shotgun and opened fire."

[PavePusher]

11. Idiotic police speculation is idiotic.

"Pierce County sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said they know the suspect is carrying an assault rifle because shell casings were found at the scene, but no assault rifle was found in the car."

I hope they do better than that before anything actually goes to court.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

14. "...do better..."

Do you mean like open google.com and look up those words before they use them?

[PavePusher]

18. Or just walk into a local gun shop and look around.... n/t

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. You went and ruined some perfectly good moral posturing with facts.

Good work!

[Straw Man]

19. In the picture that is now circulating...

...he is holding a Saiga AK-pattern shotgun.

[LAGC]

22. Those things are bad-ass!

Semi-auto mag-fed shotguns can pump out some serious lead.

Perfect for home defense.

[burf]

23. Those are the one ATF tried to ban last year.

The effort failed.

Saiga 12’s, Benelli M4’s and virtually any other tactical/military shotgun can no longer be banned from import by the ATF.

A little noticed provision tucked into a large appropriations bill obviously flew under the radar of the “Brady Bunch” and the “Illegal Mayors.”

The new law effectively kills ATF’s plan to stop tactical/military shotgun imports by way of abusing the “sporting purpose” requirement and their agency rulemaking powers.

The “Fiscal Year 2012 Agriculture, Commerce/Justice/Science (CJS) and Transportation/Housing/Urban Development (THUD) Appropriations bills”, also known as the “Mini-Bus”, was passed by Congress, and signed into law by President Obama on November 18, 2011.

http://www.ammoland.com/2011/11/19/little-noticed-provision-kills-atf-shotgun-ban-plans/

[hack89]

9. A traditional deer rifle has more than two times the stopping power than an AK-47

you need to learn something about rifles.

[PavePusher]

10. There is a specific definition for "assault rifle"...

and they have been heavily regulated since the 1930's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

Please provide proof that this was an "assault rifle" other than the ignorant claims of lazy "reporters" (photos would suffice), or retract your claim and the lies you based on it.

[Pacafishmate]

12. How many will show up to DU and continue to make posts based on emotion and not logic?

The attributes of the weapon are completely irrelevant because banning something just because someone MAY use it unlawfully is completely moronic. This is like taking away the driving privileges of the entire country because some people got caught for DUI. In before guns can only be used to kill and other irrelevancies/fallacies employed by those who support gun control.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. The AK-47

A true AK-47 is an assault rifle in that it is select fire. It can operate in semi-auto or full-auto modes.

From a ballistic standpoint: The true AK-47 accepts 7.62x39 ammo. A typical hunting rifle uses .30-06 ammo. Projectiles for the AK round max out at 150 gr while the hunting rounds can be loaded up to 220 gr. The capacity of each round to hold propellant is 2.31 cu cm for the AK and 4.42 cu cm for the hunting rifle. Typical loads of .30-06 ammo yield projectiles with approximately 40% more energy than the AK.

The only real advantage to hunters and soldiers, who both typically do a lot of walking, is that they can carry more 7.62x39 than .30-06 as it is smaller and lighter. Both are deadly; the .30-06 has greater range and stopping power.

Select fire weapons require special licenses and tax stamps. Semi-auto variants are sold commercially in the US.

The guns_in_parks_page gives some highlights.


What, exactly, do you favor in the way of new or different laws?

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. Congratulations Michael. You've finally topped your "man with an AK-47 in Moscow, Idaho" story!

Reportage such as yours has made gun control the success it is today...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. +1 ;) n/t

[SteveW]

17. It's no surprise that you "Sugarmann-coat" false information...

You said:

"that the gunman who shot and killed a park ranger and mother of two with an assault rifle. How many was it this year killed and maimed with the AK variant?"

Well, is it an "assault rifle," or an "AK variant?" The former is a FULL-AUTO rifle fit for modern military service; the latter is a knock-off of the full-auto AK-47, usually semi-auto. There is no indication from your remarks, or the story, of which. Further, the data for "how many" is out there, and has been posted for years. But instead of doing the research, you merely try to score points with some of that ol' time Sugarmann religion:

"Assault weapons—just like armor-piercing bullets, machine guns, and plastic firearms—are a new topic. The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons."

FYI, less than 3% of all homicides by firearms are committed with ANY rifle; the AK "variants," AR 15s, SKS, etc. being merely one category within "rifles."

I've never read "low power" used to describe a standard AK-47. I and many others have used the term "medium power" to describe the rounds the rifle uses, being as it were between pistol power and older more powerful rifle rounds. You can "search this forum" to find examples, something you should do before posting.

Again, YOU NEED TO LOOK UP the "numbers of crimes committed with these weapons..." Don't be lazy and unethical in your arguments, preferring to muddy the waters -- just like Sugarmann -- by your repeated assertions of "these weapons" (full auto?) and "AK clones" (semi auto?) within the same sentence.

Do your homework and quit the shell-game.

[SteveW]

21. Wouldn't be using echo-spam, would you?...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11725373

[ileus]

24. Sounds like I need to acquire an clone for my collection before it's too late.

I've wanted wan Ak type since I bought my first SKS in 91. 7.62 was cheap then....

[Atypical Liberal]

25. Twice as many people are killed by hands and feet every year than all rifles combined.

The simple fact is the FBI UCR data continues to show that only about 300 people are killed every year by all rifles combined, let alone assault rifles. This is about half as many as are killed by hands and feet every year.

I agree it is silly to argue over how powerful a firearm is - all firearms are powerful enough to kill things.

But the whole "assault rifle" scare tactic is a huge waste of time. Very few people are killed with rifles every year. The simple fact is they are hard to conceal and thus not very useful for most criminals looking to use a firearm during the commission of a crime.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. It is low power.

We also, don't know what the Mt. Rainier shooter used.

The Mak-90 used in the Ihop shooting was illegally altered to fire full-auto. Not an easy task, but also impossible to prevent, given the weapon can be turned out from scrap steel and railroad ties with rudimentary hand tools.

AK Clones are a small percentage of the already tiny percentage of murders committed with long guns, period. Your meaningless emotional pleas do not change that fact.

[Remmah2]

27. The Guardian has an unhealthy obsession with US gun crime.

They have a whole sub-directory devoted to the subject. Talk about political motivation. This should keep some people busy for awhile. Very unbalanced in their reporting methodology. I'm sure the English population just sucks this stuff up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gun-crime

[Euromutt]

33. It's the only thing they have left to feel superior about

It is my considered belief that even the most left-wing of Britons is jingoistic enough to not quite get over the fact that the United States displaced the United Kingdom as "top nation," and their collective ego is salved by knowing that there's less gun crime in Britain than there is in the U.S.

Even if that's just about the only thing Britain has going for it by comparison.

[Atypical Liberal]

29. Park ranger was shot with a shotgun.

Also, it turns out that the park ranger was shot with a shotgun.

http://www.examiner.com/national-parks-in-national/suspect-ranger-killing-found-dead-mount-rainier-national-park

"Before she could leave her car, the driver leapt from his car and opened fire with a shotgun."

Now, from the pictures of the gunman circulating, it appears that he has one of the Saiga AK-based shotguns. It is functionally and cosmetically similar to an AK-47 but fires shotgun rounds instead of rifle projectiles.

But it is not an assault rifle.

And shotguns account for fewer deaths than rifles do every year.

[Remmah2]

30. Even lower power than the mythical AK. nt

nt

[AtheistCrusader]

32. It really is no surprise how wrong you were, again.

[AzWorker]

34. "AK variant"....

hehe

indeed we have taught you something, rest assured you have much more education ahead of you.....

8^)