Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumHigh Cost of Willfully Misinterpreting the 2nd Amendment
On June 28, 2008, that view --- that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected to service in a state militia --- became the law of the land, courtesy of the U.S. Supreme Court's hard right quintet's decision in District of Columbia v. Heller ("Heller" --- a 5-4 decision that ignored precedent, history and basic rules of constitutional interpretation.
Heller not only elevated the profits of the domestic small arms industry above the ability of government to protect our safety, our general welfare, our domestic tranquility and our very lives, but provided a disturbing new context to the eerily prescient 1991 warning provided by Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) when he likened the confirmation of Clarence Thomas as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court to a game of "Russian Roulette"...
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9424
Clames
(2,038 posts)Sad that the Brady Campaign states they understand it's an individual right on one website and post the complete opposite on another. Hypocrites? I think so.
msongs
(67,405 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)community guns, so the gang owns it, but not individual members.
Callisto32
(2,997 posts)Yeah, it's weird like that.
Clames
(2,038 posts)Care to try again?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)just like I don't take talk radio and cable chat shows that seriously.
especially then the cite equally biased sources or just parrot conventional wisdom.
One, Heller did not overturn any precedent. If so, please show the cases.
Two, He did not get even understand the Miller case.
Three, he changes the subject in the middle and starts talking about right wing militias
Four, he cites other blogs and the VPC of all people as objective sources.
ileus
(15,396 posts)bongbong
(5,436 posts)The gun-relgionists would starve, since they'd be too scared to go to the supermarket.
Clames
(2,038 posts)They choke on the smallest amounts.
There is no "logic" to gun-relgionists' beliefs, they are strictly emotional beings. Scared of everything. Their Precious is a subject of worship.
Gun-relgioniosts hear NRA Talking Points, AKA Big Lies, so often they actually believe them.
Clames
(2,038 posts)There is no "logic" to anti-gun-relgionists' beliefs, they are strictly emotional beings. Scared of everything. Their Moral Whip is a subject of worship.
Anti-gun-relgioniosts hear Brady Campaign/MAIG/VPC/LCAV/MMM Talking Points, AKA Big Lies, so often they actually believe them.
Equate
(256 posts)because of that sputtering. I refuse to answer him anymore, it's just gibberish coming from him.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)bless his heart.
rDigital
(2,239 posts)and grasping at straw men. Foam at the mouth, screech your screed and stomp your feet all you want. It's entertaining for the rest of us.
I laugh the hardest when you guys fail so hard on grade school English language syntax. Antis refuse to acknowledge the difference between a dependent and independent clause. How do you even tie your own shoelaces, let alone drive a car?
Keep misinterpreting the 2A, and Heller, McDonald and I will laugh all the way to the gun show!
The RW is in lockstep with each other and we Dems are divided 50/50 or maybe even 60/40. The 2A is going to be quite safe for some time. Keep on truckin'!
> It's entertaining for the rest of us.
You guys "won". How much do you love watching other gun nuts shoot up theaters?
Gun relgioniosts are a strange group of scared children.
rDigital
(2,239 posts)I understand that you gun-religionists laugh at dead Americans, but you should try to cover up the obviousness of your hatred.
Screech your screed, and enjoy your impotence on the subject at hand. No cause would want the kind of posts you make associated with them. Toby Hoover would throw you out of her office and Sarah Brady would do the same. Trash postings are self defeating.
Your fear is obvious.
Simo 1939_1940
(768 posts)Callisto32
(2,997 posts)Maybe you'll lose the keyboard.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)THREE gun-relgionists responded to my latest post. I wonder why?
Oh, wait, I know. I didn't laugh at them. Here ya go, tough-guys-too-scared-to-walk-in-public-without-a-gun:
And for good measure, here's another laugh at you guys from a "wimpy Liberal" who is so tough that he doesn't need guns to walk around in public:
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)as though someone here had said it. If so, please link to it. Otherwise, you're being quite dishonest.
Trunk Monkey
(950 posts)bongbong
(5,436 posts)The Internet has these really neat things called "search engines".
http://www.google.com/search?q="wimpy+liberal"
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Care to put that to the test? Bring your "A" game.
If you have one...
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Oh that's RICH! Another gun-relgionist claiming they're smarter than me. HILARIOUS!
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)You have yet to advance anything remotely resembling a cogent, rational argument in support of your position, preferring instead to indulge in hilarious amateur psychoanalysis, playground-level ad hominem, and a cringeworthy parade of fallacy. Smarter than you? Obviously...but that's not exactly an accomplishment I'd use as a resume' highlight.
bongbong
(5,436 posts)Projection is a serious mental problem. Deal with yours.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Just like clockwork: hilarious amateur psychoanalysis. Pure comedy gold.
If you ever actually manage a coherent, rational argument, let me know, kid.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)Straw Man
(6,624 posts)See Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5, lines 26-28.
HALO141
(911 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)that all people that are pro RKBA carry concealed weapons with them at all times? I have two brothers who are cops who rarely carry while off-duty. My father and Iraq war veteran nephew have CCWs and never actually carry a weapon. I don't personally have a CCW because I've never felt the need to have one although I do own several handguns.
Why do you post all the emotional hyperbole and insults instead of engaging in an adult discussion?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)in the Nevada movie theater recently, those with CCWs do not cause a lot of trouble. You are barking up the wrong tree again. Stopping the gun toting in public by criminals is where you should focus your attention.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)In Texas the detailed statistics are compiled annually by the Department of Public Safety and published on the internet. It is likely that the Texas experience with Concealed Handgun Licenses would be about the same in other states. The last year for which statistics are published is 2011 for convictions. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/index.htm
In 2011 there were 512,625 people who had CHLs. Out of those people there were exactly four (4) murder convictions. Out of the general population there were 553 convictions for murder in its various forms.
So very, very few CHL holders go bad, but some do.
The DPS also publishes an annual Crime in Texas Report. http://www.dps.texas.gov/crimereports/10/citCh3.pdf
From that report, page 15:
Statistics on murder circumstances, victims, and
victim/offender relationships on the next page
include justifiable homicides. Justifiable homicide
is the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the
line of duty or the killing (during the commission
of a felony) of a felon by a private citizen. In
2010, there were 98 justifiable homicides, of
which, 50 were felons killed by private citizens,
and 48 were felons killed by police.
In Texas all homicides, even those that are clearly self-defense, have to go before a grand jury which will rule if the killing was justified or not. So those 50 justified private citizen homicides were ones in which the defender genuinely and legitimately feared for his life. Since most shootings are merely woundings there would be a much larger number of justified woundings in which the defender genuinely feared for his life, but that number is not kept. Obviously there are dozens of cases each year in which a CHL holder uses their gun to save themselves.
Dozens of innocent lives saved versus four innocents killed shows the concealed carry is working in Texas. As already stated, there is no reason to believe that other CCW states have a different experience.
Legal concealed carry saves innocent lives.
> Why do you post all the emotional hyperbole and insults instead of engaging in an adult discussion?
You mean like posting a bunch of completely unprovable anecdotes that prove absolutely nothing like you did?
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)aikoaiko
(34,170 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)writing another check to the SAF. Oh, well.
rl6214
(8,142 posts)And of course no comment on this important blog post either.
trouble.smith
(374 posts)Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. ... The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed. Alexander Hamilton
Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the_real_object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands? Patrick Henry
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun. Patrick Henry
The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them Zachariah Johnson
By calling attention to a well-regulated militia for the security of the Nation, and the right of each citizen to keep and bear arms, our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fear of governmental tyranny, which gave rise to the 2nd amendment, will ever be a major danger to our Nation, the amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic military-civilian relationship, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the 2nd Amendment will always be important. John F. Kennedy
When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia.George Mason
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
. George Mason,George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on
Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress shall have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the People." Tench Coxe, 1788.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the milita, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State. Our opinion is that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right. Nunn versus State of Georgia
Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon, and citizen's firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference; they deserve a place with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes; we need them every hour. George Washington
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. Noah Webster
The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals.... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." (Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789)
"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])
"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169)
"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty.... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins." (Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment [ I Annals of Congress at 750 {August 17, 1789}])
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- (Thomas Jefferson)
"...the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms" (from article in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette June 18, 1789 at 2, col.2,)
"To prohibit a citizen from wearing or carrying a war arm . . . is an unwarranted restriction upon the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege." [Wilson v. State, 33 Ark. 557, at 560, 34 Am. Rep. 52, at 54 (1878)]
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)Who said the last one?
trouble.smith
(374 posts)oldsarge54
(582 posts)Hate to tell you this, but most of your quotes are out of context. Henry Lee's quote specifically referres to the militia. Thomas Jefferson, was for all intents and purposes, was an anarchist that believed that no government was the ideal state, along the lines of what Thomas Paine wrote in "Common Sense." Below is the actual Rules and Orders for the militia from 1775. Perhaps it will give you a clue of what milia meant to the founding fathers. This is redacted a bit, but the full original is available on line.
Rules and Orders For Regulating the Militia Of the Colony of NEW-YORK: Recommended by the PROVINCIAL CONGRESS, by several resolutions, recommended to their constituents the expediency of forming themselves into companies, and choosing their officers in the manner following.
RESOLVED. That it be recommended that every county, city, manor, town, precinct and district, within this colony, (where the same is not already done) be divided into districts or beats, by their respective committees, in such manner that out of each may be formed, one military company, ordinarily to consist of about eighty three able bodied and effective men, officers included, between sixteen and fifty years of age.
Resolved secondly, That in each company so to be formed, that be chosen (in the manner herein after mentioned) one captain, two lieutenants, one ensign, four serjeants, four corporals, one clerk, one drummer, and one fifer.
I. That the several companies so form'd, be joined into regiments, each regiment to consist of not less than five or more than ten companies
II. II. That a Major General be appointed and commissioned by this Congress to command the militia of the colony of New-York.
III. That one Colonel, one Lieutenant Colonel, and two Majors, and Adjutant and Quarter-Master, be commissioned by this Congress for each regiment.
VI. That every man between the age of sixteen and fifty, do with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good musket, or firelock, and bayonet, sword, or tomahawk, a steel ram-rod, worm, priming-wire, and brush fitted thereto, a cartouch box containing twenty three rounds of cartridges, twelve flints, and a knap-sack, agreeable to the directions of the Continental Congress; under the forfeiture of five shillings for the want of a musket,
VII. That each company (not minute men) do meet the first Monday in each month, and spend at least four hours in each of the said days to perfect themselves in military discipline.
VIII. That the Colonels and commanding officers of each regiment, do assemble and exercise their respective regiments at least two days in every year, at some convenient place to be fixed upon by the Field Officers.
XIX. That in case of an alarm, invasion, or insurrection, every subaltern and soldier, is immediately to repair, properly armed and accoutred to his colours, or parade (which parade shall be understood to be the habitation of his Captain, unless otherwise ordered. That every officer, non-commissioned officer, and private, who shall neglect, or refuse to perform his duty in this case required, shall be adjudged by a general court martial.
XXV. That when the militia, as well minute-men as others, in case of invasion, or insurrection, shall be called out on actual service, they shall be subject to the same rules and orders, as directed and ordered by the Continental Congress of the associated colonies, held at Philadelphia, on the 10th day of May last, for the better goverment of the Continental troops.
trouble.smith
(374 posts)their statements were quite unequivocal-the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and it is not to be infringed upon. The militia is to be comprised of citizens in order to prevent the formation of a large standing Army which they rightly considered to be incompatible with liberty; furthermore, the unifringed right to keep and bear arms is also necessary to check a government that has become incompatible with liberty which they rightfully understood to be the natural tendency of any government. Their reasons for the second ammendment are clear and their language is unambiguous. Their quotes are not taken out of context. That the militia has been largely replaced by a large standing army only strengthens their arguments.
oldsarge54
(582 posts)Light Horse harry lee's statement specifically called for a organized militia, not just every tom dick and harry carry a gun. The subject of the single sentence that comprises the 2nd Amendment is "a well regulated militia. The only consistent person commenting about fear of the government was Thomas Jefferson, who, like Thomas Paine, did not believe in any government beyond that of the township. In other words, anarchists. When they people referred to an army, or enemy government, they were referring to the British. The NRA has cherry picked the words of the founding fathers to build a case that the government is the enemy. Outside of shooting cops, revenue agents, and eviction notice servers, has this ever actually happened, the armed citizenry's taking on the oppressive US government. This sort of thinking is what makes the Lubbock judge scary.
trouble.smith
(374 posts)Light Horse Harry was actually Henry III whose father, henry II, was a 2nd cousin of Richard Henry Lee who said: "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms."
He also said: "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." Was he a proponent of the militia? Of course. Does he suggest that the RKBA is not an individual right? No. Nowhere in any of that can it be construed that this man thought the RKBA was not a right of the people themselves; what's more, it is clear from his words what he feared. That his fears have come true does not lend credibility to your position; rather, it justifies mine.
to summarize, you are looking at one tree and ignoring the forest around it and you aren't looking at that tree very clearly. You're the cherry picker here, not me and not the NRA. Our forefathers were clear on the 2A as was their intent. I don't know what else to tell you.
bad sofa king
(55 posts)That would be the anti-second amendment crowd and yes, there may indeed be a high cost for it.