4 robbers killed by Ind. store clerks in last 6 weeks

[GreenStormCloud]

http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/indiana/4-robbers-killed-by-Ind-store-clerks-in-last-6-weeks/-/13610848/17173434/-/5ljr1ez/-/index.html

A string of shootings at convenience stores and other businesses across Indiana has left suspects dead and sparked a debate over whether clerks should be allowed to carry weapons - and use them.

At least four attempted robberies in the state have ended in fatal shootings in the past month. In all of those cases, the clerks fired back.

The shooting surge has left many wondering what to do if placed in a similar situation and police trying to provide guidance.

"I don't think people should ever lose their life over loss of money or property. We would hate to see a clerk become a victim or get in a shoot-out, so we would encourage people to be good witnesses and contact the police," West Lafayette Police Chief Jason Dombkowski told the Journal & Courier. "However, people definitely have a right to protect themselves if they're in fear of losing their life."

MORE AT LINK

That's four violent felons off the streets - permenantly. Dozens of future victims that won't be victimized, possibly injured or murdered.

[Politicalboi]

1. I'm no fan of guns

But I am glad these clerks were able to protect themselves. Not all thieves just take money, some shoot to leave no witnesses. So we don't really know if any of these clerks would have ended up on the slab if they hadn't protected themselves.

But instead of guns, maybe stores should invest in better camera's. A camera that has a full color screen at the door that gets your picture clear as day. Not some black and white blurry video.

[glacierbay]

2. As a cop, I tell business owners to get a good description

and avoid a shootout but if threatened, by all means, defend themselves and their patrons. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over violent criminals losing their lives due to their criminal activities.
A criminal takes his life into his own hands when they decide to victimize the citizens, and when they pay the ultimate price, too fucking bad.
Kinda harsh, but that's the brutal truth and I won't apologize for it.

[Clames]

3. Careful, you'll make the resident delicate flowers wilt.

[glacierbay]

4. I am so beyond

caring about the delicate flowers here, if they don't want to hear the truth, then they can put me on ignore, won't ruffle my feathers.
I fully expect this to be alerted on.

[ileus]

5. The jury is out...

There used to be a noncitizen that loved to alert on posts like yours. Now others have taken the lead.

[glacierbay]

6. Yep

and we all know who they are.

[Berserker]

8. Hey delicate flowers

[IMG][/IMG]

[rDigital]

7. If my life is threatened, I'll do what's necessary to stop the threat

and I encourage others to do the same.

[busterbrown]

9. Business is tough! Every little bit counts. I worked 10 hrs today and I made a measly 100 bucks.

Nobody is gonna come into my store and get my money. Fucking A, fuck them if I'm going down I'm
taking those fuckers with me.......I had this conversation with myself 100 times; thats why I don't
have a gun at my business. Being dead for money is crazy!

[glacierbay]

10. Your choice

and I respect that, but what's to say that the criminal won't shoot you or your patrons to not leave any witness's? At least if you're armed, you have a fighting chance, but you have to make your own decision.

[busterbrown]

11. Whats to say that a little girl with her mother wouldn't catch a bullet intended for me?

The fighting chance thing doesn't work for me. Way too many guns in this country and your
argument just adds gas to the fire. Sad.....

[gejohnston]

12. how would you being disarmed prevent that?

The number of guns really doesn't matter as much as who has them.

[busterbrown]

17. You prevent this with tougher gun control! Too many guns out there falling into hands of

of people who are very sane when purchasing and for a myriad of reasons become unhinged.
Happens every fucking day. No, its about the millions of fucking guns!

[gejohnston]

20. doesn't work that way

tougher gun laws never reduced crime, even Australia. Australia's crime rate was already dropping, and continued on the same trajectory. If your outlook were true, Canada should have had more machine gun crime from 1934-1977. They didn't. They do have more handgun crime now than they did when they started licensing and registering handguns in 1934. They started registering machine guns in 1952.

[glacierbay]

13. Like I said

your choice and I respect that, but the fighting chance scenario still applies, I'm not saying to pull you weapon and engage the robber if it looks like he is just going to take the money and run, far from it, but if it appears that they are going to start shooting because they don't want to leave any witness's, and you can tell by their actions and their eyes, then at that point, you have nothing to lose, that little girl with her mother will be dead anyway.

I know that I keep belaboring this point, but I probably have far more experience in this than you do.

[Berserker]

14. What is sad

is that there are people that would drop to there knees rather than fight back. There are not to many GUNS in this country there are to many criminals.

[busterbrown]

18. Tough Guy...Your Attitude is exactly why this country is so fucked up! Where are the criminals

in all the domestic gun violence deaths. Ever think about the fact that most people become
criminals only after they kill a relative, co-worker, or innocent civilian.

[GreenStormCloud]

34. You are wrong. It is very rare for a person to commit murder as a first crime.

In almost all murders the killer already has a long criminal record, and it is already illegal for him to have a gun.

[busterbrown]

35. A link please......

[GreenStormCloud]

38. Here you are:

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/kates/Myth_of_the_Virgin_Killer-Kates-Polsby.pdf

Facts are always the enemy of gun controllers. Most of the things that gun controllers think they know, they don't.

Most murders are crime-on-crime, (Criminals settling business disputes.) according to the FBI. You may have heard the stat that most murder victims know the person who killed them, but what that statement leaves out is that most criminals know each other - doesn't mean that they are friends - just that they know each other. Gang members know members of other gangs, drug dealers know each other, pimps know their prostitutes, thieves know fences, etc.

[Atypical Liberal]

41. A key quote...

"Nearly fifty years of further homicide studies confirm that murderers are almost never the "ordinary, 'law abiding' citizens" Prof. Etzioni (& Remp, supra), blame. The great majority are, in fact, extreme aberrants whose life histories are full of violence, psychopathology, crimes (some acquisitive, others completely irrational), substance abuse, and other hazardous behavior and dangerous accidents. The whole corpus of research shows murderers "almost always have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior."24"

[busterbrown]

44. Here we go again with Don Kates an attorney who makes a living off of litigating self defense cases!

Next! Many posts on this thread go much further than I ever could. Suggest you read them....

[gejohnston]

46. besides the one that falsely accuses him of being a right winger?

or the Hemenway shill studies? Three questions:
are you saying people should not defend themselves?
are you saying that the sixth amendment should be repealed too?
do you know what a genetic fallacy is?

[oneshooter]

49. Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC?

[GreenStormCloud]

50. So What? Criminology is a well studied field.

Murder is NOT a new crime. The profile of people who murder has been studied for centuries. What kind of person illegally kills another has been a question that humans have asked for thousands of years. It is well known in that field of study that murderers almost always have lengthy police records.

One doesn't need a gun to kill. Your kitchen has lots of lethal instruments in it, as does your garage, living room, dining room, bedroom, etc. Criminal culture has loads of improvised weapons, such as a sharpened credit card, that can pass through metal detectors.

[Atypical Liberal]

40. Here's another one...

http://www.cardozolawreview.com/content/denovo/KATES_2010_86.pdf

Most people who commit homicide have worked a long time to condition themselves to debase the value of the lives of others to the point where they will take it from another. It's usually a long trail of incremental victimization that leads up to murder.

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Thanks.

It is amazing how many people believe that murderers are just ordinary people who snap, instead of being seasoned criminals.

[glacierbay]

43. Yep

the average citizen just snapping and killing is very rare, it's usually the criminal with a long rap sheet.

[busterbrown]

45. See reply #44. I know it hurts!

[gejohnston]

47. see reply #46. Only when I laugh too hard.

[Atypical Liberal]

48. What hurts is a post with no content.

Do you have any specific data with with to refute the paper?

[4th law of robotics]

15. Your choice

but consider: if being disarmed were such a great protection from being shot why are so many disarmed people killed?

[darkangel218]

16. +1

[busterbrown]

19. You need to be fact checked about that my good NRA buddy!!!!!

[DonP]

21. And you need your head examined, Buddy. Every day I drive by the Tinley Park Lane Bryant store.

6 women, none armed, thanks to Illinois law, all shot through the back of the head lying on the floor on a Saturday morning.

Browns Fried Chicken "robbery", 6 unarmed employees, shot execution style by two thugs after they emptied the register.

When you figure out a way to get the guns out of the hands of those people first, without another unconstitutional flight of fancy that disarms the law abiding first, let us all know.

In the meantime feel free to trust yourself and loved ones to the tender mercies of someone that chooses to rob to make their living and we'll keep our guns.

[busterbrown]

22. Realize facts mean nothing to you.

But in terms of firearm homicides, per 100,000 we rank a horrific 8th in the world behind
Columbia, Guatemala , Paraguay, Mexico. You think we should be 8th? I wonder why?
Because of Freedom? Our abilities to stop foreign invaders? Give me a break!

[gejohnston]

23. actually, we are closer to 107

which include US territories such as USVI, which has very strict gun laws. We are also behind Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Costa Rica.


BTW, all of those countries all have much stricter gun laws. That includes Mexico.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[busterbrown]

25. Your source is very questionable, isn't it?

Try this one!

http://ivn.us/2012/07/25/gun-control-an-international-comparison/

[gejohnston]

29. not at all,

the person who wrote yours was lazy. The absurd thing was "japan eliminated nearly eliminated firearms murder", odd given that Japan never many murders of any means to begin with. One problem with Japan's statistics, a murder/suicides are all suicides. For example, if dad kills wife and kids before offing himself, Japanese authorities count them all as suicides. There is a different word used to distinguish the two.
Most gun control arguments involve various logical fallacies, the most common being Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Other than the fact that you like what the writer says. The Wiki article has good citations and no apparent political bias. Please explain why yours is better.

[busterbrown]

24. Brown"s Fried Chicken Story. THat happened 1993 didn't it?

This is the reason you feel we should have millions upon millions of guns a float in this
country? You troll for horrific stories and tell us that this is the reason we don't need gun control.
These stories are the reason we need more gun control!

[gejohnston]

26. do you seriously think the

robbers went though the hassle of getting an Illinois firearms identification card and went to a gun store and bought it? No. No, they didn't go to a gun store in a neighboring state either.

[busterbrown]

27. They sure didn't. They probably stole them from someone!

[gejohnston]

30. according to the ATF

that isn't very common. They could be made in a basement.

[Union Scribe]

37. I know, we should make stealing guns illegal!

Problem solved. You're welcome, America.

[Berserker]

28. No we don't need

GUN control that's foolish and ignorant we need CRIMINAL control. What does it take for some people to think these things out. People that do these things are the scum of the earth criminals not law abiding citizens. Taking GUNS away will not do one fucking thing to stop it. Just like the war on drugs for 40 years has not stopped drugs. What the hell does the anti-gun crowd think, That taking away GUNS will stop this shit.

[busterbrown]

31. We didn't say "take away guns" we said that since

we rank in the the top 8 in firearm homicides per 100,000 , we can not fix this by ignoring
the fact that our unbelievable easy gun accessibility is a major fucking problem!

[gejohnston]

32. but in total homicides, we are near the bottom

but all of those other countries have very strict laws, including Mexico. Where have gun laws affected the murder rates?

[4th law of robotics]

33. Elaborate

are unarmed people never the victims of armed individuals?

After controlling for all factors does being unarmed make you significantly safer?

[Union Scribe]

36. ...how does that make you less dead?

It makes them less dead, okay, but "if (you're) going down" with or without the gun apparently, then your last line is pretty much a moot point.

[Eleanors38]

39. Strange, the article starts off saying "debate over whether

clerks should be allowed to carry...", but presents nothing to support that debate, only a discussion about safety and tactics. What "debate?"