Bernie Sanders and the Peter Principle

[bravenak]

Has Bernie Sanders Reached the Point of 'Peter Principle'?


What is the Peter Principle anyway? According to Wikipedia "The Peter principle is a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter in which the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence.""

So, how does this relate to Bernie Sanders? To get a measure of how he performs in his current role, we have to go back to Netroots Nation. At Netroots Bernie Sanders and Martin O'malley were confronted by Black Lives Matter activists and were put on notice that the black vote would have to be earned. Although O'malley initially stumbled, he recovered immediately following the event and met with activists afterward.

So, what about Bernie? Bernie stumbled badly, he angrily reminded the protesters of his civil rights record, he was flustered, he left the stage, and he neglected to meet with Black Lives Matter activists, opting to instead send a staffer. Ouch.

Every campaign and candidate has a stumble or two, but they rally and come up with solutions to prevent similar occurrences in the future. Not so with the Sanders campaign.

It was in Seattle. Bernie was speaking at an event to a crowd of like minded folks that resembled the crowd from the Regatta event that launched his campaign. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/l7uzqg/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-democalypse-2016---bernie-sanders-kicks-off-his-presidential-campaign

Bernie Sanders was interrupted by not one, but TWO black women. Black women determined to call out the City of Seattle on the gentrification and White Supremacy that envelopes their lives in a coccoon of fear, pain, jail, poverty and death. Was Bernie's immediate reaction empathy? Not really. Not only did he seem to lack empathy, but his grassroots used the occasion to falsely accuse the two young ladies of assaulting him... His internet army suited up for battle, cargo pants and chinos pressed and ready, iPads charged and they got into formation. This was war. How DARE those black women accuse them all of personally being white supremacists? Though that never happened, they went out to fight anyway, searching for black people who dared use the internet to tell Berniesoblack jokes, who questioned Bernie's record, who did not care if Bernie marched with MLK. I even recieved a letter of my very own in the mail..

But I digress. How does this relate to the Peter Principle? I'll tell you. Leadership. Bernie lacks the leadership ability to keep his grassroots from becoming a hindrance to his campaign's ability to grow his coalition of voters. Bernie says nothing as his grass roots supporters harass John Lewis, random black people, Hillary supporters and any news organization that did not say he won the debate.

Bernie is no leader. Bernie is no manager. Bernie is no executive. Bernie will not be President.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle


Sources:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle


http://bravenak.com/2015/10/21/bernie-sanders-and-the-peter-principle/

[Coolest Ranger]

1. First to rec

Second welcome back sister. Missed you and great article as usual.

[bravenak]

2. Thanks.

[sheshe2]

132. Hugs, you~

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. K&R

Good to see you back.

[bravenak]

67. Thank you.

[brush]

4. Welcome back.

[bravenak]

68. Thank you.

[think]

5. Welcome back

I don't agree with you on this but it's good to see you back.

[bravenak]

70. Thanks!

[sheshe2]

126. I so love your sig line!

Good to see you sweets~

[bravenak]

128. Thank you.

It's very difficult managing my terrible condition of SS. If I could just feel the Bern....

[sheshe2]

130. Ha!

Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

I have missed your voice here. You are a bright light some tried to dim. I didn't work out so well with them, you are back more brilliant than ever.

[bravenak]

131. Lol@the Haterz

I get my best ideas from the ones who hate me.

[Cha]

167. LOL! I just saw your sig line.. Perfecto!

You poor thing.. Rofl

[bravenak]

169. I'm so Sick Cha! It's the SS. I know it is.

[Cha]

171. What else could it be?! They've diagnosed you so it must be

true.

If that's what you have.. I want some, too!

[bravenak]

172. Oh, you have it!!! I can tell!

Look at that hostage on your sigline. That is a sure sign of infection.

[Cha]

175. LOL.. I believe I do and didn't even know it. Thank you.. it must be

contagious..

I guess I'll have to get a new avatar, though~ You're FREE!

[bravenak]

176. Yep. That was some of our best work.

I guess we should write 'free cali?' Just to fit in? Lol!

[Cha]

179. Definitely some of yours and she's best work!

Making Lemonade out of a whole lot of lemons.

[bravenak]

184. She always gets those brilliant ideas!!!

Oh and FREE CALI. Or, I'll just see her next month. Hi cali! I know you can see me....
I remember how she missed me and found me at the other site. I'm sure she's glad to see me.

[Cha]

188. Who wouldn't be?~

Glad to see you?

[bravenak]

190. I think most would. I'm funny. Can't help it.

If I can't make a person laugh, they suck as a person.

[Cha]

195. LOL.. I know I don't suck!

[MuseRider]

6. I am so very happy to see you back

I may not agree with you on some things but on others I do. So what? I am just simply happy you are back. I hope you stay, I was afraid you would not come back.

[bravenak]

69. Hey!

[MuseRider]

71. :-)

[99th_Monkey]

7. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/118729804

[bravenak]

11. Cool!

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. How is that related to Bravenak's OP? ...

Oh ... I get it! A Black woman favors Bernie!

[99th_Monkey]

49. Bernie's website

Bernie lays out a very detailed & comprehensive set of coherent policies for addressing racial
injustice in America. IMHO, it compares favorably with Clinton's, and is more consistent with
BLM's demands.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/racial-justice/

And someone in AA Group recently noted this contrast in a recent OP, so it seemed at least a
little bit relevant to me.

[1StrongBlackMan]

52. Like I said ...

the only reason you posted that was because here was a Black woman you could use to push your agenda ... even where it is completely unrelated to Bravenak's OP.

[99th_Monkey]

55. This

"At Netroots Bernie Sanders and Martin O'malley were confronted by Black Lives Matter activists and were put on notice that the black vote would have to be earned. Although O'malley initially stumbled, he recovered immediately following the event and met with activists afterward.

So, what about Bernie? Bernie stumbled badly, he angrily reminded the protesters of his civil rights record, he was flustered, he left the stage, and he neglected to meet with Black Lives Matter activists, opting to instead send a staffer. Ouch."

A lot of time has passed since the BLM incident in Seattle, and Bernie has taken it seriously to heart, and come alongside BLM in a number of ways, including his comprehensive set of policy proposals to address racial injustice and state-sponsored violence agains PoC. I think that is worth noting, in response to the above portion of the OP.

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. Okay. n/t

[upaloopa]

8. Welcome back to the DU "real world"

A big turn of events the past few weeks. Hillary's debate performance, her bump in the polls and Biden's announcement today that he is not running.
Looks to me like game, set, match but life in the "real world" still goes on.

[bravenak]

27. The debate was awesome...

[Cha]

168. Lalalalala..

[leftofcool]

9. I am so happy you are back!

Great post and so true.

[bravenak]

14. Mmonk gave me the idea.

Unintentionally of course.

[etherealtruth]

10. :-)

Sorry, didn't read the article, just so happy you are back!

[bravenak]

12. I do that too.

Love you. You been holding it down, for real.

[Baitball Blogger]

13. Bernie Sanders continues to evolve with every new challenge.

So, no, the Peter Principle does not apply here. Whether people want to hold on to their first impressions is another issue, and certainly, that would be their right to do so.

And your input can only help him, because he appears to continue to listen. There are five more debates. Why don't we listen to what he has to say before we build a glass dome over his head?

From what I see on DU, every candidate has problems with rogue supporters. Debbie Wasserman-Shultz, for example, the leader of the DNC is willing to dispatch with integrity in order to make things smoother for Hillary. Where is Hillary on this subject? Why isn't she demanding more debates? Why isn't she demanding that the date to register to vote in the NY Democratic primary get pushed back from October to March, for example?

Signs of lack of leadership, is where you want to find them.

[bravenak]

17. I find them in the lack of direction he give to his supporters.

Grassroots are well and good for bringing fire in the belly and helping to drive up a certin amount of support, but the repercussions of lacking a long term coalition is that he is left with a sugnificant amout of support that is not necessarily FOR him so much as for a revolution and creating their version of utopia, which inevitable turns out to be somebodies dystopia.
The harassment of John Lewis should have been addressed by him to his supporters, thank them for their passion but do indicate to them that they are crossing boundaries in many ways.
As I predicted, the full court press to defend Bernie's record inevitable felt like a declaration of war to those person who were not already among his support, and quite a few have suffered harassment as a result of questioning Bernie or lacking support for him.

Good leaders and managers notice what their group is up to and they try to steer the energies into a positive direction. Not once have I seen bernie speak on the harassment. His supporters promptly forget it happens and or pretend they notice not what their peers are doing.

The reason Bernie is flatlining is directly related to the Peter Principle. He is just a man and as such imperfect. Imbuing him, falsely I might add, with godlike perfection is bewildering to many not already supporting him.

[Baitball Blogger]

29. I don't think he's flatlining, as much as Hillary is getting a surge because she's

managed to extricate herself from the Benghazi ploy the Republicans were pushing, and because she is an admirable debater.

Bernie's big challenge is to convince America that we need some form of socialism to protect our citizens. I'll leave it up to him to figure out how to do that. But, I don't see him as closed-off to minority issues as some people think he is. I know, because I live in a red county and I know what mitigating racists sound like. He's nothing like that.

And I think your comments are productive ones. I hope that he will reach out to his supporters in a way that will satisfy you.

[bravenak]

34. I live in a red state too.

Convincing them that we already HAVE socialism is already a stretch, convincing them we need more? Might start a war if we impose good things on them.

I do not see him as closed off just unaware. He does not get it. It's not just about saying names. It is about the environment you created in your group. If people feel welcomed and listened to they join, if they feel lectured and demanded explanations from or attacked for their own political position, they move away and join another group. The atmosphere among his support is unwelcoming to most black folks. I even have supporters say very disturbing things to me in person on campus. Many are former Rand Paul folks up this way and in my opinion, if others are having similar experiences as I have had, then it is understandable that he is not surging with the african american population.

I have made comments on articles on other sites and for weeks recieve nasty and sometimes racist comments in response from self described Sander's grassroots supporters.

The campaign autopsy will prove my prediction correct. Sadly. I wish people had listened to me the very first day when I predicted this outcome. I always am spot on with predictions relating to the behaiviour of the black demographic.

[Baitball Blogger]

43. Sometimes it is a question of resurrecting someone's record.

And that can turn support from one candidate to another in less than a week.

We shall see. The biggest problem I see for Bernie is that it appears that the media has taken a side. The same thing happened when W was running against Gore. That means that everything is going to be exponentially more difficult.

There may be several reasons why you're sensing strong resistance, which ultimately is turning you off. In all fairness, however, how much rational discussion do you expect to attract when your sentiments are just as strong? For example, suggesting that Bernie has tapped out isn't exactly, an invitation for a friendly discussion, is it?

[bravenak]

48. This is merely an observation not an invitation for angry recriminations.

That is the problem. One should always avoid become attached to a candidate to the point where an observation or even a criticism feels like an attack on oneself. In the even that that occurs it is most beneficial to take a step back and disassociate oneself from politics and keep in mind the criticisms that oneself has made against the beloved candidate or politician of a peer or peers or associates.

[Baitball Blogger]

51. Which is why I have said that your comments can only be helpful in the long run.

I would like to see a closer race than the one that is developing, but it will all depend on whether Bernie can reach out to everyone with a message that can answer all the questions and overcome the criticism.

It will be an interesting four years, no matter which Democratic candidate wins the position of the oval office.

[kjones]

157. Did you just use the "E" word?

Boy, if I had a nickle for every anti-Hillary post that criticized her as having "evolved" into her positions.

[Baitball Blogger]

165. I think the term makes sense for someone who is expanding his geographical constituency.

As your demographics change and becomes more diverse, you have to expand your perspective.

In Hillary's case, I think people are trying to say she is disingenuous because she is a career politician and knows what she has to say to win confidences, but lacks true conviction when it comes to holding onto Democratic process.

[scarletwoman]

15. Very good points.

So good to see you back!

I do wish Bernie would do better on those points you raise, but there's no denying where he's fallen short.

I mainly feel neutral about the primary race - I'll vote for the Dem in the General election, no matter what.

[bravenak]

18. I'm feeling the same way, but Hillary did rise in my estimation with her answer of 'NO'

Have no idea why but I was like GOOD. Shut up. Stupid emails.

[scarletwoman]

31. I hope she keeps that kind of push-back against the GOP scandal-mongering going!

"No!" was the right answer.

[mcar]

16. K&R

Welcome back, bravenak!

[bravenak]

22. Yo!

[Jan Bunson]

19. Interesting, but the Peter Principle is not correctly used here

The Peter Principle states essentially that a person will rise to the level of their incompetence.

Translated, that means that a person will be promoted until they prove incompetent at their job, and thus will not be promoted again.

This theory is used to explain why the world is filled with people who are not competent for their jobs - because most people have been promoted ONE TIME TOO MANY.

Elected Officials are not promoted, they are elected.

This explains why W. Bush ascended the political ladder despite his incompetence - he wasn't promoted, he was elected (well, maybe NOT elected, but you know what I mean)

Apples and Volkswagens.

[bravenak]

21. I used artistic license.

[Jan Bunson]

26. Deliberately Misleading

is not artistic license.

[bravenak]

28. Not at all. I am the writer here and I decide the relevancy in my opinion pieces. Thank you.

[Jan Bunson]

33. The Peter Principle is a MANAGEMENT THEORY

it explains why the world is filled with incompetent managers.

If anything can mean whatever you want it to mean, then what is the value of communication?

[bravenak]

36. What does the executive branch do? Any management of people?

If yes, then oops! I guess the presidency is merely a chief executive officer of sorts on steriods. Do you understand that running a nation includes administrative, executive and managerial tasks? If not I can send you a link to a free Political Science textbook for you to peruse at your leisure. Just ask me!!

[scarletwoman]

38. Go somewhere else to pick a fight.

You're adding nothing to this thread and nothing to this group - which is the African American Group, in case you didn't notice where you are.

In any case, "Management" is a perfectly apt analogy for being the leader of a CAMPAIGN, and thus the term "Peter Principle" is reasonable and applicable.

Now please leave off your nitpicking. The rest of us here are actually having an on-point discussion and are also welcoming back an old friend who's been gone for a while.

[Chitown Kev]

41. Ultimately, a president is a manager

and that is the job that Sanders is vying for...and besides, Sanders was also mayor of Burlington, VT for 8 years, so he does have some management exp., however small.

[randys1]

59. What is funny is when I started reading her essay in the OP

as a Bernie supporter my immediate reaction was she, Bravenak, is wrong.

We dont often disagree, but we do from time to time.

Then I started reading the pro Bernie responses, and the more I did that the more what she was saying made sense.

BTW, I have no doubt that one of Bernie's biggest hurdles would be how to manage an administration, because I dont see him as a manager, more of an activist.

I would still love to have him as president, dont get me wrong.

And you know what I would love to see him do, tell his supporters on television or somehow to stop the endless attacks of Hillary.

I would love to see him do that now, before the attacks become successful and we end up with president Cruz.

[MADem]

186. And executives (as in --hello--the EXECUTIVE branch of government, i.e. POTUS) are managers.

A POTUS must manage a personal staff and a cadre of cabinet officials, and a crew of Joint Chiefs, etc., etc., and so forth.

The point was apt. Not sure what you're griping about.

[Jim Lane]

47. Is it your opinion that Bernie Sanders has been incompetent as a U.S. Senator?

That's the opinion you would have to hold to apply the Peter Principle -- demonstrated incompetence in the person's current position as the reason that the person is not promoted.

As you say, if that's your opinion, you're entitled to hold it. I'm just curious about whether that IS your opinion.

On DU, Sanders has been criticized for some (not all) of his votes on gun issues, and on one particular weapon system (the F-35). With those exceptions, most DUers, even those who haven't endorsed him, generally assess him as one of the best in the Senate. And that's even if we spot Clinton her subsequently regretted vote on the IWR. Sanders has been a progressive champion on a host of issues.

So, it's one thing to say you prefer Clinton, but do you consider Sanders to be an incompetent Senator?

[Chitown Kev]

50. As I understand this

it's not necessarily about whether Sanders is incompetent as a Senator but whether he has the requisite skill set and temperament to be President given the electoral realities of this nation.

...the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role.

[bravenak]

60. I based it on his current role in managing his campaign and running for office, which is a job.

I believe he has demonstrated a lack of leadership, especially with ignoring the harassment of Rep John Lewis and the black demographic of our party.

I also do not see much of the required skills of coalition building and directing of his supporters into positive activited designed to draw an increased amount if support rather than allowing the most caustic to use his name as a platform for their own biases which causes support to stagnate.

He is not executing this campaign well. He is not growing his support from diverse groups that resemble the democratic party as a whole, and if one mentions these facts, one is in danger of evisceration by a toxic, self described, supporter.

[Jim Lane]

72. There is supporter misbehavior from some Sanders people and from some Clinton people.

I've been told right on this forum that ANY criticism of Hillary Clinton is inadmissible because she's certain to be the nominee and therefore criticism does nothing except help the Republicans. I consider that attitude to be toxic but on my scorecard Clinton herself gets zero blame for it. Presidential candidates can't reasonably be expected to monitor the Internet and pass judgment on all comments by everyone who announces support for them.

Presumably Chafee and O'Malley also have some supporters who are jerks. The only difference is that, because there are fewer such supporters overall, and because their candidates are currently perceived as not being a threat to anyone, they have much less opportunity to overreact to perceived slights.

[bravenak]

73. I am mostly concerned with how the supporters treat people who resemble me.

The reason being that we are a minority population and quite outnumbered in voices and bodies and power. Those that seek to magnify the voices of the ignored or marginalized are those who have my support, those who seek to shut down the voices of the distressed, call them Divisive, harass or marginalize them are not those who should be supported. Perhaps if rather than attacking en masse any and all who 'are wrong on bernie's record' supporters decided to weed out or call to the carpet the imposters and caustic individuals among their own ranks, others would notice and commend them for doing the right thing.

In this cycle there has been no issue of harassment to African americans from among the Hillary Clinton circles. In the now the accusations are towards those of the other candidate's supporters and has been documented and written about extensively. That is ignored in favor of repeating memes from 2008 or bringing up Hillary's previous campaign. We are dealing with a case of the grass roots pointing out the mote in Her eye while ignoring the beam in their own.

[MADem]

194. 'You've been told' that .... here? Or in the HRC group? By whom?

Clinton supporters usually get swarmed if they dare suggest that Sanders might have a weakness. Even when one points out the obvious issues that the GOP will surely go after, the pushback is extreme.

The Sanders contingent pretty much owns this board--they've run off most of the HRC supporters, who have decamped to more congenial locales.


I would expect that after this election, a lot of "new" people will disappear, only to reappear during the next election cycle if there's a contentious primary in the offing.


Sanders could nip this shit in the bud--he could issue an edict that anyone who plays dirty just isn't on his team. It would be a simple tactic to separate the trolls from the sincere supporters, too.

[Jim Lane]

198. I've been told that on DU by a DUer with a Hillary-arrow avatar.

I direct your attention to this thread, and in particular to the sub-thread beginning with post #4 (which was from a different Clinton supporter).

After the DUer with the H-arrow avatar referred to "Hillary hate", I sourly observed that Clinton supporters seemed incapable of recognizing any criticism of her as legitimate; they instead ascribed it all to Hillary hating and/or Hillary bashing. I followed up by asking point-blank if there was legitimate criticism of Clinton on DU. I was told (by the H-arrow DUer) that there is no contest for the Democratic nomination and that, in consequence:

Attacking Hillary here is carrying water for the repubs because the real race is between Hillary and who ever remains in the clown car.

My personal opinion is that attacking any of the Democratic candidates on a substantive basis is perfectly legitimate. For example, I've seen posts taking differing views on the reinstatement of Glass-Steagall. Nobody on DU should object to criticism of their candidate's position on Glass-Steagall (O'Malley and Sanders are for it, Clinton is against it, I don't know where Chafee stands).

Much of your post bemoans the current state of DU. Yes, on this board there are more Sanders supporters than Clinton supporters. The obvious result is that criticism of Sanders will draw more disagreement than will criticism of Clinton. Another obvious result is that, if we assume that each group of supporters has about the same proportion of jerks, there will be more misconduct by Sanders supporters than by Clinton supporters (just as there will be more misconduct by right-handers than by left-handers). Those facts aren't likely to change anytime soon. If you can't deal with your inability to attack Sanders with impunity, post your attacks in the HRC Group or in those "more congenial climes" (at least one of which I looked in on briefly and found to be Supporter Misconduct Central).

Finally, you write: "Sanders could nip this shit in the bud--he could issue an edict that anyone who plays dirty just isn't on his team." First, I don't think any candidate can reasonably be expected to monitor supporter conduct on DU. Second, there's an underlying disagreement about what constitutes playing dirty. I haven't seen anyone on DU say that Clinton should be opposed because a woman can't lead the Free World, and I assume a post like that would be hidden 7-0. If someone says Clinton has called the TPP the gold standard, some of her supporters will consider that to be playing dirty. (By the way, has Clinton issued an edict that no one should bring up Sanders's religion? Because it has been brought up on at least one of those more congenial climes, it apparently being congenial to anti-Semitism.) Third, I don't think Clinton or Sanders or any of the other candidates has much control over what people say. I don't think Sanders has ever called Clinton a corporatist or a war hawk but some of his supporters here honestly feel that way and are not trolls.

[MADem]

224. That first link is not directed at you--why even mention it?

The writer makes a completely valid point in articulate fashion, too.

The 2nd link isn't directed at you either. No one is saying "Oh, that Jim Lane is a real Hillary Hater" are they?

But you jumped in with this remark (and 'sour' is a mild descriptor):

Star Member Jim Lane (7,222 posts)
47. Oh, absolutely. Any criticism of Hillary whatsoever constitutes Hillary hate.

Except, I guess, when it's merely Hillary bashing. Perhaps the great minds of the Hillary Clinton Group could work out a rubric for distinguishing between those two categories.

There will, of course, be no need for a third category, of "legitimate concerns to raise as part of the vetting of candidates during the fight for the nomination." When it comes to Hillary, there are no recorded instances of any DU post that Hillary supporters consider as falling within that category.

That is just not true. Much of the criticism is not actual criticism, it's debunked bull straight outta Newsmax and The Daily Caller. Hand written by Reince Pribus.

As for the comment by the Clinton supporter, that's what people are supposed to do on message boards--make points, and debate them as well. If you disagree with post 67's conclusions, refute them--don't whine that the few HRC supporters who haven't been driven off are being "mean to you." It just smacks of petulance. And you're accusing me of "bemoaning?" It's especially ironic that you are doing it in this particular group, where a former Sanders supporter was hounded and silenced for having the nerve to give #BLM perspective to DU's own Anointed One.

Most of the accusations about Clinton are from bullshit sources and they do carry GOP water. And I can't help but think that not everyone is so obtuse that they don't know where they're getting some of this stuff.

I am not moved by your display of the victim card, sorry. The people who have been victimized on this board are those who refuse to feel that Bern, or who display insufficient enthusiasm for him. We've had members of this group silenced for not staying in their place on the bandwagon. And to me, that's not 'support.' That's bullying, and a lot of it has been done by newcomers with no sense of the DU ethos, and people who I suspect do not have the interest of Democrats at heart.

Because these people are saying what some DUers want to hear, they ignore some of the ugly attitudes expressed, that if directed at THEIR candidate, they'd find appalling.

[Jim Lane]

226. Have you decided to dress up as a straw man for Halloween?

The context here is that I made an assertion, you belligerently demanded details, and I provided you with a link. That means that the link was responsive to your question. It doesn’t mean that I was propounding every conceivable argument that might have been supported by that link. Your post is full of attacks on things I never said.

For starters, I wasn’t claiming to be a victim. To bolster my assertion that there has been supporter misconduct on DU, I pointed to one example (as per your request). To clarify, I didn’t feel personally victimized by that exchange. To the contrary, I thought it reflected very badly on the DUer who so openly tried to suppress all criticism of his or her preferred candidate. Having pointed out that foolish attitude, I felt free to go on criticizing. I’m obviously not alone, as Clinton and Sanders have both come in for frequent criticism here, with a little left over for Chafee and O’Malley (and even at least one potshot at Lessig).

The reason I mentioned the first link is that I was giving you the context – the sub-thread in which you could find the answer to your question. Context is sometimes important. I linked to the post where the sub-thread began.

You assert that much of the criticism of Clinton “is not actual criticism, it’s debunked bull....” I’ve seen criticisms of Clinton here that I thought had no merit. So what? That wasn’t the point. The point of my post wasn’t that all criticisms of Clinton are valid; it was that Clinton supporters all too often state or imply that no one on DU should be criticizing Clinton about anything, as in the final link I gave you (post 67 in the other thread).

You write:

As for the comment by the Clinton supporter, that's what people are supposed to do on message boards--make points, and debate them as well. If you disagree with post 67's conclusions, refute them--don't whine that the few HRC supporters who haven't been driven off are being "mean to you." It just smacks of petulance.

Well, more precisely, it would smack of petulance if I had actually said that. Which I didn’t. See, when you use quotation marks around "mean to you" in a context like this one, some readers will think you were quoting me verbatim. Which you weren’t. I didn’t whine about meanness; I merely provided the answer to a DUer who asked “'You've been told' that .... here? Or in the HRC group? By whom?”

You write: “Most of the accusations about Clinton are from bullshit sources and they do carry GOP water.” I disagree. Most of the accusations on DU about Clinton are that she’s too conservative. Do you expect the GOP nominee to attack her over her vote in favor of the Iraq War, or her opposition to reinstating Glass-Steagall, or etc. etc. etc.? No, those criticisms here are not going to show up in Republican ads. (Compare, BTW, Clinton’s famous “3 a.m. phone call” attack ad against Obama, which McCain was happy to pick up and run with in the fall. That was an example of carrying GOP water.)

There’s also been some (although less) nonideological criticism here, such as people pointing out respects in which Clinton’s much-discussed email handling violated best IT practices. (I’m not sure of the details because I don’t see this as very important and I haven’t paid much attention to it.) It’s true that Republicans are likely to make that charge if Clinton is the nominee. But they’ll do that regardless of whether there’s a code of omerta on DU that says we mustn’t mention it. The Democrats’ general-election prospects are enhanced if every prospective nominee goes through a vetting of this sort now. Let Clinton and her supporters develop their best answers, sound bites, etc., now, and if they can’t handle the attacks (about emails or anything else), let us find that out now.

You complain a lot about treatment of Clinton supporters. I’ve looked at a handful of the hidden posts on the transparency pages of PPR’d Clinton supporters, and I saw some hides I agreed with and some I disagreed with. I’ve also seen bogus hides of pro-Sanders posts. You apparently see no vice whatsoever in your allies. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but I adhere to my opinion that none of the top four Democrats has supporters who are all good or all evil. I admit my bias here, arising from my preconceived notion that the real world usually doesn’t shake out into nice neat categories.

[MADem]

228. You're the one dressing up as the victim, here--ironic, since no one sought to offend "you"

but you went out of your way to seek out a target and look for offense. Since we're talking about Halloween costumes, and all. You don't have to "claim" to be a victim to come across as one.

Sorry--I am not buying what you are selling.

And this isn't just about "Clinton supporters," either--at least one prominent member here in this very protected group where we are posting was a Sanders supporter, but "insufficiently pure" to suit her tormenters. Her critiques were NOT viewed as valid--they were a reason that some found it fun to go after her and target her posts for hides-to silence her very valid critiques. Not DU's finest hour by a long shot, even more so when Sanders himself acknowledged the very issues she raised and modified his campaign to address some of her concerns. Of course, by then, she had been silenced.



This "There Will Be No Criticism" meme does go both ways, but when the odds are stacked ten to one against, who looks like the bullies? It ain't the few Team Clinton types who remain. As for "the real world," this isn't the real world. If that were the case, the majority of posters here would be Clinton supporters, and no one would have given Dennis Kucinich's many past campaigns a hope in hell, either.

[Jim Lane]

232. OK, I hereby undress as a victim.

As I thought I made clear before, I don't contend that anyone sought to offend me. You say you're not buying what you say I'm selling, and I say I'm not selling it, so we appear to have reached an equilibrium.

Here's a summary of what I actually wrote:

There is supporter misbehavior from some Sanders people and from some Clinton people.

....

Presumably Chafee and O'Malley also have some supporters who are jerks. The only difference is that, because there are fewer such supporters overall, and because their candidates are currently perceived as not being a threat to anyone, they have much less opportunity to overreact to perceived slights.

and later:

Yes, on this board there are more Sanders supporters than Clinton supporters. The obvious result is that criticism of Sanders will draw more disagreement than will criticism of Clinton. Another obvious result is that, if we assume that each group of supporters has about the same proportion of jerks, there will be more misconduct by Sanders supporters than by Clinton supporters (just as there will be more misconduct by right-handers than by left-handers).

Here's part of what you wrote:

This "There Will Be No Criticism" meme does go both ways, but when the odds are stacked ten to one against, who looks like the bullies?

So we both agree that the side that has many more people will tend to have many more jerks. I'm good with that. (I'd add that the side that has many more people will also tend to have many more people making valuable contributions to the discussion. You may not agree. I'm certainly not going to try to canvass enough posts to get actual comparative data concerning DU in 2015, which is why I'm limiting myself to the description of general tendencies.)

[1StrongBlackMan]

40. No you didn't ...

You used it correctly, in a political/electoral context.

Good to see you.

[bravenak]

42. Hey!!

Missed you!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

53. How's school going? n/t

[bravenak]

61. Too good.

My paper discussions are becomming impeccable. I have and a and a a b and a b. One class the crazy teacher gives me 30/20 on assignments that I try hard on. I'm still lazy. But, if I work hard the night before something is due, I'm pretty much an a student (except drawing and math, too hard).

[okasha]

140. Good to see you back here,

Sounds like you're doing fine. Are you taking drawing as a fine arts requirement or as an art major?

[bravenak]

143. Art Major.

It's required, sadly. Keep trying to figure a way around intermediate drawing, no such luck.

Nice to see you too. Had a nice vacation.

[okasha]

144. Me, too.

Here are the rwo things to remember about drawing.

Draw what you see, not what you believe you should see. This is surprisingly difficult, especially with color.

It's all about light and shadow. Build your forms from them, not from outlines. I finally got this thumped into my head with life drawing.

This sounds terribly professorial, but it comes from making all the common mistakes and a few no one ever thought of before. Keep at it, You-ll do great!

[bravenak]

145. Nope! Not professorial!! That is just about the only thing I have learned.

Slow down. Find my shadows, no dark outlines, chiaroscuro, detail. Since I never drew before, I had no habits to break, thank god!! Only 1 1/2 semesters of drawing left! I don't know if I should focus on photography, I like paint. Might need to just paint and do some ceramics. That sounds way funner. The professor put my skeleton with the good people's stuff last week. Yay! Got a b plus!

[okasha]

151. Try everything!

You may fall in love with a medium you never expected to like. I'm concentrating in ceramics and watercolor, but did a hellulotta photography first.

Congratulations on your skeleton. If you can draw a ribcage, you can draw anything!

[bravenak]

153. I will, thank you!

I can'r wait to get started on the good stuff!

[brer cat]

20. Welcome back!!!!

K&R

[bravenak]

24. I have stockholm syndrome so here I is!

[scarletwoman]

32. !!!

[leftofcool]

56. LOL! Lots of people around here seem to have that same condition.

[bravenak]

62. I eat tums to help ease the symptoms from the stockholm.

[leftofcool]

147. OMG! That is funny!

[ismnotwasm]

122. Holy shit--I'm dying here

[bravenak]

125. Me too, yo.

How have they survived without me making fun of them? Had to have been hard. And boring.

[kjones]

158. And a masochist to boot...

welcome...once more unto the breach

[bravenak]

159. Thank you. Loving the pain!!

[JI7]

23. you were missed here

I'm glad you decided to post here again.

As for sanders i think many of his worst supporters are more about being anti Hillary, anti obama etc. And would behave the same even without him in the race.

[bravenak]

25. I agree.

I think some just glommed onto him. Ruined the whole party.

[Tarheel_Dem]

58. +1. The Libertarian following is the most hateful. They have no shame when it comes to insults. nt

[tishaLA]

30. Welcome back!

So good to see you

[bravenak]

45. Hey!!

Nice to see you too!

[randys1]

35. What is THIS bullshit! Where is the ALERT button!

welcome back, sis

[bravenak]

66. Lol! Hey!

[Chitown Kev]

39. Well, hello there

good to see you, I think this may be the first post of yours that I've commented on.

On the two BLM encounters, I actually don't hold the second encounter against Sanders himself, I probably would have acted the same way in that situation.

But that "don't you know who I am" tone in the NN encounter I do hold against Sanders.

[bravenak]

44. Yeah. I honestly thought he recovered nicely after the second incident, better than the first time.

It was the warriors of the revolution that did the most damage. I kept hoping he'd tell the worst of them that he did not need that type of support. Alas, he did not, which is a reflection of his managerial style. Sad really.

Hey! Nice to be here at the same time as you. I'm not really here. Just had to say this one thing.

[Half-Century Man]

46. Welcome back, I have missed your fire.

Your passion is absolutely amazing, even when I'm feeling the lash from it.
I get pulled into the strike zone by being a Sanders supporter, and I fit more of the criteria by being Caucasian, preferring cargo pants and relying on the internet. Out of the 56 (7?) members of the last 4 generations of my family, 3 have gotten a college degree. I am one of them. Most of us careered on factory floors, a lot of us did a stint in the service. I do not think we are elite at anything or in anyway. But we have benefited from white privilege without realizing it.

What is referred to as White Privilege (lack of negative assumptions upon sighting, genuine social courtesies extended, hailing taxis at will, lack of profiling by LEOs, etc) is the normal behavior that should be extended to everyone. It should be the baseline of our entire society. Even with it, My life has been just above bad, the last ten years the worst. I shudder to think where I would be without that privilege. Anyone who has to live that way gets whatever support I have left.

I don't know what influence Mr. Sanders has on the personal behavior of people who follow him. I don't know what influence Ms. Clinton has on her followers. The behavior by some on both sides has been terrible. Dedications clash.
A history professor I respected told us that the wars between different sects of the extremely religious followers of the same religion were the bloodiest ones. Each side viewed the other as heretics, far worse than the non-believers. I think we at DU are the extreme followers of the Democratic Party, and we are dealing with a clash of sects.

For what it is worth, I rewote each of those paragraphs at least 3 times. I had a general theme in mind but lost it along the way. I guess what I meant to say was

Welcome home.

[bravenak]

63. Thank you!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

54. In response to interactions with Black Lives Matter, Bernie formulated a racial justice platform to

add to his campaign. Far more quickly than Hillary Clinton, I might add, even if not as quickly as Martin O'Malley. So if your deduction is that Sanders has reached his 'Peter Principle' point based upon how long it took him to find a better way to interact with protesters and add a specific racial justice plank to his platform, that suggests that Hillary is also at or past her Peter Principle point, as DeRay McKesson indicated that he was STILL waiting to see Hillary's racial justice platform even after her meeting with Campaign Zero.

I guess that means Martin O'Malley will be President.

(ETA - And Bernie isn't my boss, he doesn't pay me or tell me what to do.)

[Chitown Kev]

57. What bravenak is saying

is that policy and platforms are one thing...communication is quite another.

As a black gay undecided voter who is online and generally enjoys online discussion, the loudest Bernie Sanders supporters are also some of the most clueless when it comes to racial issues and, at times, are racist (and I don't even go on FB or Twitter).

Even in those venues, if Bernie Sanders is the person that you want and if you want to convince others to vote for your candidate, browbeating and (in this case) racism is not the way to do it.

[bravenak]

64. I am speaking of his interpersonal skills and him addressing the army he asked for.

Telling his supporters that he does not want negative support and that harassing John Lewis is out of bounds would go a long way towards convincing me that he was aware of what is going on around him and proactive.

[murielm99]

74. WB bravenak.

We have missed you.

[bravenak]

75. I missed y'all too

[Starry Messenger]

76. Marking to read this evening!

Just got back home and saw your name. Yayayayayayay!!!!

[bravenak]

78. I realized I was off suspension this morning. Surprising.

Hey!!!!

[Jack Rabbit]

77. Welcome back, Bravenak

I hope they found the jack ass who sent you threats.

And we still disagree with each other, but that's OK with me if it's OK with you.

[bravenak]

79. I think the letter writer is posting as bravenak at the conservative cave now.....

It's cool. I've gotten much worse threats than alerting on my posts.

[jfern]

80. There are always going to be a few bad apples in any large group

Obviously some Bernie supporters went overboard and said things they shouldn't have. And Bernie himself admitted he didn't respond to the BLM protests correctly. But I think it's unfair and divisive to continually single out Bernie's supporters as the problem now 3 months later. You can always find assholes, and they aren't limited to one candidate's supporters. I wish people on both sides would move on from what happened 3 months ago.

Of course BLM is an important issue, it's crazy that the prosecutor said the Tamir Rice execution was justified.

[bravenak]

81. Have there been apologies issued and changes made in the attitudes?

As the harassment of John Lewis is a recent event, saying that this is three months old is not accurate, it is an on going issue that gets ignored, minimized, deflected from and then somehow used as a cudgel to accuse the victims of harassment of divisiveness? How? Coming in to the aa forum to tell a long term member that her accurate and honest asessment is divisive is the actual divisiveness.
Those who tend to give themselves and their peers the most breaks and consideration are usually the quickest to withold the same consideration they give themselves from others. There is no way they can be divisive since they are special snowflakes and we are mere plebs.

As I am dealing with a bout of Stockholm Syndrome, I am unwell and confused. Tell me more about how the attacks on the black population are a figment of my imagination. I'm all ears.

[randys1]

84. Bernie supporters harassed Lewis? WTF ??

[bravenak]

85. On his facebook. Went on and on and on lecturing him on civil rights.

[randys1]

90. No surprise. If it werent that your life depended on it, literally, as you are both a Woman and

Black, I might even HOPE for the bashers to get their way and a con is elected president.

In that their way is Bernie or NO way and that may lead us to GOP WH.

Because then and only then can they find out just how selfish they were, when the stories of dead Women in botched illegal abortions start filtering out and so on.

[bravenak]

94. Me too. If only I knew I wouldn't suffer worse I'd just stop caring.

[lib87]

95. Yep!

I believe some members here on DU called John Lewis' office the day the announcement came out because they were in 'disbelief' a civil rights icon could possibly support Hilary.

Welcome back bravenak!

[jfern]

96. They must have missed where he endorsed Hillary 8 years ago

[Number23]

101. Was that some shit or what???

I believe some members here on DU called John Lewis' office the day the announcement came out because they were in 'disbelief' a civil rights icon could possibly support Hilary.

I was scratching my head so hard reading that OP from a Sanders supporter who actually called Lewis' office to "confirm" his Hillary endorsement I'm surprised my scalp didn't bleed.

Wonder if that person is calling everyone who endorsed Hillary for "confirmation" or if that one was special for some reason???

[Agschmid]

192. Let's be real, they probably call them all.

[bravenak]

102. Hey!!

[jfern]

89. Well

Anyone harassing John Lewis is a jerk and doing a disservice to Bernie or whomever they support. The same for anyone using the term Stockholm Syndrome. Of course attacks on the black population aren't your imagination. If they are really targeting black people, they should be called out on it.

But it's not fair to criticize Bernie or all his supporters for the action of a few people acting on their own accord without the support of Bernie or most supporters. It's not like bad apples are anything unique to Bernie supporters. But it seems that Bernie's supporters are held to a higher standard, since it benefits the Hillary campaign to have Bernie's supporters dismissed as racially insensitive angry white men.

[bravenak]

97. I never used the word all. I specifically said the most caustic and what I consider Rand Paulites.

There has been no harassment of blacks by Hillary supporters this cycle. This priblem comes from one direction and it is up to the rest of his support and him himself to get things in order, it is not our job to ignore it or make excuses.

More time is spent by certain folks deflecting and saying NOT ALL, than in finding the most problematic supporters (they are noticeable) and telling them to stop and harassing them into submission instead of harassing us into loving Bernie.

[jfern]

104. I guess it depends on in which manner the harassment is happening

I mean a Bernie supporter who isn't harassing John Lewis probably won't spend much time on his facebook page, so Bernie supporters posting on his Facebook page would be disproportionally bad apples and not have so many good apple Bernie supporter to call them out.

I suppose you're right about the treatment of blacks during this campaign (and not the campaign Hillary ran 8 years ago) has been largely Bernie supporters at fault. And there are some recent problems. But I think the people continuing to have an issue today is a small minority. I think Bernie supporters have moved on from the BLM protests and accepted that they and Bernie made mistakes in responding to it, and a strong racial justice platform is important. After all, you'd be crazy to think that the police were justified in executing Tamir Rice.

[F4lconF16]

106. And that's where you're wrong.

But I think the people continuing to have an issue today is a small minority.

That may be true. But there's a reason Johnson called us white liberal Seattlites white supremacists.

It's because we don't do a whole lot about that minority. Because as usual, it doesn't affect us.

Not one person out of over 20 people I was watching the debate with in North Seattle commented on the lack of effort by the candidates to include racial issues despite the miniscule amount of time devoted to them by CNN.

Not one.

And when I commented, the few around me just hemmed and hawwed and continued watching.

That's why this is a big issue.

[jfern]

109. There are two different things here

One is people harassing black people, which is a small percentage,

The other are people who don't think race is that big of an issue which is a much larger percentage.

You are talking about the second issue. If people don't think race is an issue, just show them the video of Tamir Rice.

[F4lconF16]

114. I think they're one and the same.

Both are racism. Colorblind mass incarceration is as racist as Jim Crow. Willful ignorance has resulted in as many dead black people as has outright lynching.

Also, if you don't think race is an issue in 2015, that's willful ignorance. It's intentionally avoiding responsibility for what is happening.

You can't separate the two.

[jfern]

116. Well, every candidate is going to have a lot of supporter who think that race isn't much of an issue

[F4lconF16]

118. And a good one will directly call them out for it. Nt

[jfern]

119. Well that'd be a lot of supporters to call out

The good news is that more are saying changes need to be made, though. Even a majority of whites. The question is what changes they mean, though.

http://www.people-press.org/2015/08/05/across-racial-lines-more-say-nation-needs-to-make-changes-to-achieve-racial-equality/

[1StrongBlackMan]

150. "Good one"? Or, aware one? n/t

[F4lconF16]

214. Aware is closer to what I meant. nt

[Chitown Kev]

146. IIRC, it was a few weeks after the BLM/Sanders encounter at the SS rally in Seattle

that the teachers went on strikes or protests or something of that nature...

and I was wondering where were the 15,000 or so people that attended the Bernie Sanders rally or where were those 15,000 people protesting gentrification...

had we seen that in Seattle, I doubt that Ms. Johnson would have done that specific action against Bernie Sanders...to me, it really wasn't about Bernie Sanders, it was about the complacency of white progressives.

[F4lconF16]

105. Omg I actually laughed at that.

This is just another huge case of #notall.

[bravenak]

110. Lol!!

I know. I smh all the time.

[1StrongBlackMan]

148. See comment #13 ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=711659

[bravenak]

149. Really? Really? It's bizzarro world!!! Everyday!

[1StrongBlackMan]

152. "No ... Just too Dismissive" is all I could get out ...

and still retain posting privileges.

[bravenak]

154. I have things I'd LOVE to say. Alas! I cannot.nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

155. Yes. Check out his/her response. n/t

[mcar]

197. I just read that subthread

How the hell is that racist tripe allowed to stand?

[1StrongBlackMan]

200. Because 85+% of DU Feels the Bern ...

Ironically, that sub-thread is EXACTLY what I was/am talking about ... when a Black person says something that the most enthusiastic of Bernie supporters don't like (which is anything that doesn't Rah Rah Bernie) and they show want is not far beneath the surface.

Wanting to be my ally, my Black a$$!

[mcar]

203. It's right out front now

Nothing under the surface about that mess.

[1StrongBlackMan]

207. And tomorrow ...

Hell ... later today, they will be all brand new about "what are we doing?"

[Number23]

209. Holy SHIT!! I just read that crap myself! How the HELL was that post not hidden??!

I just alerted even though the OP deleted the thread and it was fucking 3-4 to LEAVE??!

Calling a black person a RACE BAITER on a Democratic board is okay around here now??! Just when I thought the "get out of my thread" bit was as bad as it was going to get.

DAMN these people are showing their true colors. And like a wise woman named Oprah Winfrey once said, "when somebody shows you who they are, BELIEVE THEM."

[mcar]

211. Right?

I had to read it twice to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

[scarletwoman]

220. I alerted it, too, as soon as I read it last night. Alas, I was already too late.

I was extremely disgusted to find that jury had already voted 3-4 to Leave It. Sadly, I was also not surprised.

[JustAnotherGen]

227. Another person

Not allowed in my home. Ugh.

[Starry Messenger]

208. Wow, that subthread!

Sorry to butt in, haven't been around much and didn't see that before. wtf is wrong with people? (I know the answer, that is a rhetorical question...)

[Number23]

210. The "uppity" comment is head scratchingly stupid. The "I'm a parent of a Palestinian" and the

nonsense that came before and that follows is much, MUCH worse.

This place is absolutely surreal. And we'll soon be bombarded once again with the "black folks created this divide" meme any second now. This has been on HELL of a week on DU.

[1StrongBlackMan]

212. a "Half Palestinian" (that statement makes me weep for that child, ...

not because of his lineage ... but for how his mother, ultimately, sees him)

But all of that could have been avoided if she had asked the question in the Bernie Group (that I cannot reply in) or prefaced it with ... Only Bernie Supporters Need Respond (to which I would have just laughed).

[Number23]

213. There has been only one other time I've seen such open, UNABASHED hostility towards black people

on DU than there is now. It is clear that alot is coming to the surface now (was it ever really below surface???!) and it is nothing short of stunning to see.

[Number23]

99. I think Bernie's supporters are called out so much because of their behavior. Nothing more

Even other white male Bernie supporters have called out Bernie's supporters.

It probably does benefit Hillary to have Bernie's supporters categorized as "racially insensitive white men" which makes the racial insensitivity and hatefulness all the more counterproductive and incredibly stupid. If it's hurting more than its helping, why do it???

I've seen more than once the idea that people are going after Bernie's supporters because Bernie is so perfect on all the issues that's all people have to attack him on. Just when I thought that Bernie supporters chasing after black people was the most laughably stupid and dishonest tack they'd take, that little bit of wtfuckery just cements that these are people who have no basis in reality and are deaf and blind to everyone around them who doesn't talk and think just like them.

[jfern]

108. Bernie isn't perfect on the issues

But he's certainly the only liberal candidate with a good chance in a while. Maybe since Jesse Jackson.

Anyways, I wish Bernie supporters would stop harassing black people. There are certainly other problematic supporters, but I do admit that in terms of harassing black people it's mostly Bernie's.

[bravenak]

111. Thank you.

[Number23]

112. He is incredibly strong on alot of issues. And he is weak as hell on others and whether his

supporters want to admit it or not, race is definitely one issue where he is incredibly weak. But God knows he is certainly not alone in that regard.

[jfern]

113. Do you mean he's weak on his positions on the issue of race?

Or that he or his supporters are weak on how race was handled?

If you are judging his positions on the issues of race, while he does have a history of working on civil rights, it wasn't that high of a priority in recent years until the BLM protest. But now he has a substantial racial justice platform.

[Number23]

115. That platform was developed primarily after having been shamed by black activists

And more than once.

I think one of the reasons that Bernie is attacked so heavily on race is because his supporters (obviously sensing that this was going to be an incredibly difficult hurdle for Sanders to overcome being from Vermont) tried to act as though he was MLK and Medgar Evers' godchild. "Reminding" read: throwing into everyone's faces his activism from over FIFTY YEARS AGO as if to say "hey, that's enough for us, why the hell isn't it good enough for you??!"

It was offensive. It was stupid. And worst of all, all it did was taint his campaign from the get go. Then Netroots Nation and Seattle happened and for alot of black people, that was it.

His race platform is great. But I honestly don't know if it will be enough to remove the tarnish he's gotten both from his own clueless, entitled supporters and his own behavior.

[jfern]

117. Well, he did plead guilty to mishandling that

Maybe in a few months when the voting actually happens people can look more at his platform rather than the mistakes of several months before.

[1StrongBlackMan]

201. "As if saying"? ...

"Reminding" read: throwing into everyone's faces his activism from over FIFTY YEARS AGO as if to say "hey, that's enough for us, why the hell isn't it good enough for you??!"

Hell ... That is exactly what has been said ... more than a few times.

[F4lconF16]

215. Because they're scared.

I think there's a number of things that go into this.

First, we have to remember that many disenfranchised whites, and white men in particular, see Sanders as their chance to have issues fixed that have been affecting them. While those same things have tended to affect communities of color far more severely, the collapse of the predominantly white middle class is foremost in their minds. Note the particularly prevalent discussion of FDR as a liberal icon--despite the fact that his policies were very dominantly lifting up white men with less regard to non-economic issues.

When their hope is challenged, they tend to react defensively. When Sanders is associated with the term white supremacy (despite the fact that those words were a challenge to white liberal complacency and not so much a challenge to Sanders), they immediately react to protect that hope. Centering on PoC to them represents a movement away from their needs. Resistance to their candidate--of any sort--is resistance towards having their needs taken care of.

That happens to some degree to any privileged person when they are faced with losing that privilege. As PoC advocate for their equality, those in power are going to resist having the barrier between them broken. This isn't always a conscious decision to resist those demands for equality, but it invariably happens, even to those focused on being aware of their privilege.

Hence they attempt to push their candidate despite his flaws, using all manner of tactics, from the racially browbeating "He marched with MLK" to the diminishing "Economics and social issues are always linked", something any PoC has always known.

Then, of course, we have the openly racist white reactionaries that have always been around. They're the ones who scream, "Taze her." Unfortunately, the privileged tend to ignore that, resulting in the dynamic we saw after Seattle and in the behavior online.

Note that I'm not saying all of his supporters are white and male, just that the more reactionary voices tend to be found within that demographic.

Of course, I think you know all this already and the question of "why" was simply rhetorical

[Number23]

216. Agree on all counts 100%

One of the reasons alot of black people just smile and nod when white people start hollering "we are the 99%!" is exactly for the reasons that you've noted.

Because black people know that alot of white people are happy to have us as allies until the second their position at the top of the pile is threatened in any way. This has been shown in every single, solitary "intersectional" social movement in this country.

The women's movement. The labor movement. The gay rights movement. Even the disability movement. People of color have ALWAYS had their own sub-sets within these movements because what always irrevocably winds up happening is that the needs and desires of white people always become perceived as the needs and wants of the movements themselves. And when people of color or other minorities try to stand up and say "wait a minute. I understand that this is important to you, but we have other concerns as well" they've always been branded as "being divisive" and told to "lets take care of the more PRESSING issues (read: the issues that affect white males/people the most) first."

So I have no doubt that this is what's being reflected in Bernie's campaign. We get told all the time by Sanders supporters that "economic issues are the most important" and when black people, when women, when gay people try to tell these people that gender/race/sexual orientation discrimination affects our economics probably more than anything else, we get told "lets take care of the more PRESSING issues (read: the ones that affect white males) first." Same old, same old.

[Bonobo]

156. I apologized.

It was greeted with not much attention.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251631566

[bravenak]

160. I know. I remember.

But you weren't anywhere near among the worst on that issue. Pretty tame in comparison, imo.

[WIProgressive88]

82. Glad to see you back! I've always enjoyed your posts, even if I don't always agree with you.

Always feel like I get something something out of reading them.

[bravenak]

83. I'm glad! Thanks!

[F4lconF16]

86. Good to see you again.

My perspective has changed significantly since I last spoke with you (if you want to call it that).

I would write up a response, but I'm sick and my head hurts, so I'll just leave a comment.

I think this is spot on, and over the last few days, I've begun to realize the implications. Unfortunately, it's pushing me more towards radicalization then to support of the eventual nominee. We need someone who will prioritize these issues--while I will not blame him for the reactions of his supporters (since he cannot choose them), I am not liking the fact he has barely criticized them for their reactions. It's not like they've been invisible; not all are online at sites like this.

Perhaps he worries he will damage the energy of his followers; if so, then we need someone with perhaps far more courage. If it's that, then I no longer have much faith in his ability to direct a "revolution", as once again it will not include the marginalized.

If it's because he is genuinely clueless, then I think that's workable. He has shown a propensity to listen. He might be persuaded to focus on the marginalized rather than remain fixated on the economic issues (of which I still don't believe he gets to the core of the problems anyways).

I don't know which it is. Sadly, given his reactions to being challenged and the lack of inclusion of black/gender/identity issues in his rhetoric, I'm inclined to believe it's the first.

Welp. I wanted to support him. And then I started to. And now I'm not sure I do again.

[Number23]

91. Typically eloquent and thoughtful post from you

Lots of food for thought here. Especially this bit:

We need someone who will prioritize these issues--while I will not blame him for the reactions of his supporters (since he cannot choose them), I am not liking the fact he has barely criticized them for their reactions. It's not like they've been invisible; not all are online at sites like this.

Perhaps he worries he will damage the energy of his followers; if so, then we need someone with perhaps far more courage. If it's that, then I no longer have much faith in his ability to direct a "revolution", as once again it will not include the marginalized.

[F4lconF16]

98. I really don't understand it...

He has everything to gain and nothing to lose by criticizing those followers and their (yeah here we go) white supremacist reactionary tendencies, unless he thinks he'll lose those followers for doing so.

Wait a minute...!

[bravenak]

92. I think you just summed up my feelings on it.

I was hopeful too. I think he doesn't wan to piss off his supporters. So they do what they do.

I'm sick too, I bet I have what you have. My head, my chest, my back, even my knee hurts. And the coughing, lor! This cold is fucked up.

[F4lconF16]

103. Ah, sorry to hear it.

Are you swallowing glass too? My head is killing me, but at least I'm fairly free of congestion.

Screwed up my wrists a week ago too, I think I mildly sprained them. Hurts worse with the cold.

At least it gives me an excuse to do nothing around the house and watch netflix lol. My girlfriend tried to use me to get off work, but I don't need that much babying.

School going well? I think number23 already asked that, but how are you feeling about drawing? What are you focusing on?

Trying to learn Tibetan to talk to an old monk in my coffee shop. For now I'm enjoying making a fool out of myself in front of the local high schoolers, waving my arms around and making weird noises trying to communicate with him. He seems like a pretty badass dude, came to America after having a building collapse on him in an earthquake a few years ago.

[bravenak]

107. It more feels like my neck is broken.

Had this cold for the past few weeks, it seems to be finally breaking up.

School is good. I get b's on every assignment in drawing class so maybe I'm not as terrible as I think.

B in math. If I showec up to class I could pull that up. But fuckit. Hate maths.


My lit teacher wants folks to be all trying to write for the little school creative writing journal. I try to avoid it, so far so good. B in that class.

Art appreciation... Think I have like a hundred and five percent. That is the class I actually study for and try in. Love it to death. Preparing for art history. Might have to master in it, I fucking feel so myself when discussing art and artists and the symbolism. I think I found my niche.

My focus is photography and a creative writing minor. I see no issues ahead except the rest of the math. Just gonna test right out of the spanish and shit that's too easy to sit in class for.

I never realized how boring the classics were until lit class. Zzzzzzzzz.

[Number23]

87. What the..??!! Girl...

I don't know whether to or



that you're back.

Oh what the hell... Welcome back, sweet thang.

[bravenak]

88. I just wanted to say this one thing.

You know how it is. Some things just need saying.

I missed you guys tho. It was hard seeing people say crazy shit to you and not get them.

[Number23]

93. "I just wanted to say this one thing"

Yeah, RIGHT!

You are a natural educator. You won't be able to see this constant stream of privileged cluelessness and idiocy without wanting to change some minds. That's one of the reasons so many of us admire you so much.

[bravenak]

100. You see this?

I make perfect sense. They refuse to just submit to my better judgement. Very unfortunate. I can predict things accurately for months and still, they rely on their own flawed psychic abilities.

Thank you.

I really have to not get back in here. Especially gd. Nope!!

[ismnotwasm]

120. K&R

[bravenak]

121. Yo!

[ismnotwasm]

124. Hey!

You're fired up, in the mix and speaking truth!

[bravenak]

127. Too many have been faking the front since I was gone. Smh.

I guess I must be right cause only a few came to tell me I'm wrong. Good. Glad they are starting to see it my way. (Yeah right)

[Kind of Blue]

123. Welcome Back, Bravenak!

And thanks for the article, too!

[bravenak]

129. Thank you and you're welcome!

[lovemydog]

133. Welcome back bravenak!

Your blog looks great. I'm glad you're writing there and here at DU too.

For the primaries I've gone from Bernie to undecided and now leaning toward Bernie. As I'm sure you know, I'll support the democratic nominee with all my heart. If they become President I will support them too.

I know we'll continue getting along. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.

[bravenak]

134. I like Bernie best on policy too.

I just don't think he has the chops for the job. But I promise not to hound you at all about your choice.
Nice to see you! Remember the I'll answer like Donald Trump thing? That was awesome.

[lovemydog]

135. Deal!

Thank you.

Yeah, that thread was yuge. I was friends with that thread. I payed them a lot of money. They are all friends of mine. I had lunch with them last week. I'll get them to build a fence. Make them pay for it.

[bravenak]

137. Everytime you do that thing I crack up!

[lovemydog]

139. Of course it does.

You love me. I love you. We're friends. I pay you a lot of money. You make a lot of money. You pay me a lot of money. I make a lot of money. That's why we love each other. Some people don't understand that. They are morons. I'm not going to say which ones. Who cares? We're rich. We will make America great.

[NOLALady]

136. Hey Girl!

Long time no see!

Missed you!

Glad you're back!

[bravenak]

138. Hey!! I missed y'all too!

I enjoyed the vacation tho. It was nice.

[kwassa]

141. Welcome back! Very glad you have returned.

[bravenak]

142. Hey!! Nice to see you!

[GusBob]

161. Yay you

Welcome back

[bravenak]

162. I made it!!!!

[GusBob]

163. No you are it!

Rock it

[bravenak]

164. Thank you

[Cha]

166. Wow, brave.. you came back Sizzlin' just like you left! I know full well what the Peter

Principle is.. we were reading that when it first came out.. yeah, I know.. dating myself. lol

"The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong ..."

"The "Peter Principle" was written in 1969, but you'll realize immediately it's still very accurate and useful today. Many anecdotes and case studies may remind you of yourself, someone, or some people you've worked with".

http://www.amazon.com/The-Peter-Principle-Things-Always/dp/0062092065 analogy to Bernie Sanders..

Accurate analogy to Bernie Sanders..

From you link..

The Peter principle is a special case of a ubiquitous observation: Anything that works will be used in progressively more challenging applications until it fails. This is the "generalized Peter principle". There is much temptation to use what has worked before, even when it may exceed its effective scope. Laurence J. Peter observed this about humans.[1]

In an organizational structure, assessing an employee's potential for a promotion is often based on their performance in the current job. This eventually results in their being promoted to their highest level of competence and potentially then to a role in which they are not competent, referred to as their "level of incompetence". The employee has no chance of further promotion, thus reaching their career's ceiling in an organization.

#berniesoblack.. I remember that all too well, too. There was a vital reason for it goin' down.

MsmackyM ‏@MsmackyM · Oct 16
#BernieSoBlack he's going to fool black folks into believing in a free lunch worse than Barack Obama

Rod TBGWT ‏@rodimusprime · Oct 16
You know what I think the trigger for this latest shit really was? My interaction with Bernie Sanders supporters after #BernieSoBlack

https://twitter.com/hashtag/berniesoblack?lang=en

The aggressors against #BlackLivesMatter Activists are disgusting and inexcusable.. and Bernie has never said anything about them even though he was asked to comment on it. No response that I've heard.

One way to honor #BlackLivesMatter would be to lead and acknowledge the disrespect shown to them by his own supporters. And, I'm not sayin' all of his supporters are doing this.. There are some who dislike it as much as we do.

Fortunately for us.. The DNC..


Mediaite ‎@Mediaite
DNC Approves #BlackLivesMatter Presidential Town Hall http://bit.ly/1QTW6BE
8:13 AM - 21 Oct 2015
31 31 Retweets 18 18 favorites

snip//

[quote]The Democratic National Committee has given its blessing to a presidential town hall held by leaders of the #BlackLivesMatter protest movement.

Tuesday, a website associated with #BlackLivesMatter movement posted a petition demanding the DNC create an additional debate to focus only on issues of importance to the black community: “It is not enough to poll the Presidential candidates on whether or not they think ‘Black lives matter’ or ‘All lives matter’ – we deserve substantive responses – including and in addition to criminal justice reform, what will the presidential candidates do to ensure that Black lives matter?”

DNC officials, and particularly chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, have long resisted calls to schedule additional debates. But the DNC met the activists halfway, offering to host a town hall instead.[/quote]
http://theobamadiary.com/2015/10/21/up-next-president-obama-hosts-a-community-forum/#comment-1426761

Now we can have some Nation wide conversations about #BlackLivesMatter

Excellent OP, brave~ Thank you.

[bravenak]

170. We have had so many positive developments lately!!!

[Cha]

173. I know.. like birthdays, Christmas, New Years Eve, Thanksgiving, Halloween..

and 4th of July.. all rolled into one!

[bravenak]

174. Ha!!! Wait until the primary!!!

I plan on eating chinese food and cackling like a madwoman, you? I also want a 1/4 sheet cake with buttercream filling from costo. Oh, neopolitan ice cream!!! As the results come in we can live blog and cackle.

[Cha]

177. I haven't thought that far in advance yet.. but you raise some interesting ideas..

..

.. probably my usual And, toast with Kombucha I know I'll be insanely happy that we've come that far. Primaries are hard work. LOL

[bravenak]

178. I like to snack plan.

Nights like that are exciting for me. I live a boring life. Which is good.

[Cha]

180. I hear ya.. I've done some

snack planning in my life. And, if I do say so.. I'm not that bad.

I can tell you get serious about it.

[bravenak]

181. Very.

Snacks and weed. Give me bad weed and you have made an enemy ma'am.

[Cha]

185. I hear that, too.. from another life.

LOL..

[bravenak]

187. Me too! ANGRY BLACK LADY.

[MADem]

182. Wonderful to 'see' you again--so glad your exile has ended.

You have been missed greatly.

[bravenak]

183. Glad to 'see' you too.

Some folks are SO NOT GLAD TO SEE ME.

[MADem]

189. They'd best get over that fit of pique!

You stay safe, now! We need your voice!

[bravenak]

191. I'm being so GOOD. Very good INDEED.

People are noticing and they are PROUD. Yep. Being so good. Like this article about beenie being peter principled, my plan to move to sweden cause i have a white nephew (blame willyt for that joke), my serious case of Stockholm syndrome is a hard row to hoe, but between the tums and the moet with hillary I think I can manage to survive. Tough though. Being so good, not one bit uppity or divisive, haven't race nagged or race baited. It was hard.

[MADem]

193. Well, you got to know that you are LOVED!!!

I about busted a gut when I saw your sig line!!!

[gollygee]

196. You're back!

I can change my avatar then

[bravenak]

204. Yay!! I missed that avatar!

[SidDithers]

199. Happy to rec...

Welcome back.

Sid

[bravenak]

205. Thank you!

[Bobbie Jo]

202. Just jumping in here to say....

Welcome back!!

As you can see, your voice was missed. We saved your place right here... just the way you left it.

[bravenak]

206. Thank you thank you thank you!!

[Kind of Blue]

218. Respect

[Kind of Blue]

217. "Bernie lacks the leadership ability"

to keep his grassroots from becoming a hindrance to his campaign."

Absolutely, because I think Bernie feels exactly as his extreme defenders do, so he acts slowly. Most of all, I think Bernie is not too concerned because he's a placeholder for Hillary. Just rounding up the far left because Hillary's name recognition is high among most black people, so he's got one job to do: fire them up, round them up, and hand them them over. Got to say though that Hillary leaves me cold, as well. Still got over a year to go so we'll see how much of our burn they start feeling when our drumbeat becomes deafening, as more blacks are killed by police than there were during the era of Jim Crow.

[bravenak]

219. I feel the same way. But he for some reason bothers me more.

It was this piece that changed started changing me from pro bernie to no thank you sir.
http://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/this-interview-shows-why-bernie-sanders-is-losing-african-american-support/

[Kind of Blue]

221. Thinking at this point this is a shell game

I can't really determine who bothers me more.

I don't know where to start with the article other than to rehash stuff that's been explained to death. But what really struck me was how classic Bernie is/was(?) in playing the Rules of Engagement, #11 to be exact when he said and is in bold, "I have a long history in fighting for civil rights. I understand that many people in the African-American community may not understand that." And, "Unfortunately, instead of pointing that out, Sanders decided to tell Stephanopoulos that black voters would love him if they just understood things better."

Or as #11 states: To suggest my behavior had a racist impact is to have misunderstood me. You will need to allow me to explain until you can acknowledge that it was your misunderstanding.

Bernie says, and I feel he believes this now, "You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing?"

How is my family doing? Okay for the most part except for the past intense 5 years of police terror, and the last 40 years of run of the mill harrassment. I wish he and his virulent supporters could accept, It's supremacy, stupid. But that's not what he's propped up to do, IMO.

[bravenak]

222. God Yes!

I already went through my run hillary through the wringer time for the last year, so I think I have said most of my issues with her already, long time ago. But she seems to be growing as a person. That's cool. Her supporters this time are not saying crazy stuff. Cool. Bernie. Hmm. I was with it until I wasn't.

So, yeah. I am ambivilant but I just decided on her cause the other side was being mean to me so I go where I'm wanted. They want me so, here i is.

[Kind of Blue]

223. I hear that!

I cannot blame any PoC Hillary supporter because her fans, I haven't really seen, come out with so much aggression. The aggression just hits too close to home of terror and psychological warfare. And I'm supposed to believe his limp reactions will really transform into super action when he's president...PLEASE Stop!

I wonder though if it's really about the politicians or we, the people. I think if either white base turned to their pick and shouted Black Lives Matter! Stop the Killings!, that has nothing to do with the election NEXT YEAR, I have no doubt BS & HRC's urgency in speaking about our right to exist without harm would change dramatically. And it might do a lot of good right now. So I don't really blame them for their lukewarm attitudes, if the campaigns aren't really a shell game.

[bravenak]

225. Yes!!!!!

[Skidmore]

233. You have been able to capture my

concerns about Sanders very concisely. This persistent feeling that the tone and trustworthiness of his reactions in spite of the proper buzz words has been so unsettling. Like Bravenak, I was willing to support Sanders as a candidate but have become unwilling to because of what is missing as well as the in-your-face hostilities of some of his supporters.

[Kind of Blue]

234. Thanks, Skidmore!

For me, it's freeing to dare to think for a moment Not to Vote for Either one. After letting go, it's ridiculous for me not to fully face that the engine of modern capitalism was slavery. Since then, not only have we been physically segregated to a large degree by policies meant to clearly oppress, we've been segregated mentally. Yet the call every 4
years to unite and fight the dreadful republicans has done absolutely nothing to curtail the deaths of PoC, instead it's increased significantly.

"They are not my constituency," BS said just 3 years ago when Atlanta activist Ted Brodek asked him why did he not say a word about African-Americans during his speech to the Democratic Socialists of America. This was Sanders attitude entering the theatre. I hear the same thing 3 years later, though couched and a lot less dismissive. How could that be when this group of constituents is vital to his election and support for his rival is huge?

It's just bizarre to me, except if he really doesn't want to be president. I'm feeling my vote doesn't matter could simply be because HRC has got the overwhelming majority of us already locked up, and he's got that one job to do. Things just don't add up to me but glad there's over a year to listen and watch them.

[Lisa D]

229. Welcome back!

Your voice was sorely missed.

[bravenak]

230. Thank you!

[emulatorloo]

231. So glad to have you back!

Really missed your OP's and posts!