A request to another DUer to discuss an issue:

[msanthrope]

This was a reply to madfloridian that I think deserves separate discussion. Thank you.


22. Can you tell me which minority Plaintiff you think does not "understand" what they've done?

You wrote:

Notice no blame is assigned to the student, no blame to the parent. Only the teacher.

This is very similar to the overturning of teacher due process rights in California recently. The parents and students stand publicly blaming only the teacher.

I find myself wondering to myself, but never out loud of course....were rewards given to these parents for their efforts? And the students who were paraded in public...did they really understand the implications of what they were doing?

Just like the California ruling, the plaintiffs are pictured publicly. Mainly students. Do they really understand?

Madfloridian, I think you go beyond the pale in implying that ANY of the Plaintiffs lack understanding, or were in any way paid to file. That you write "but never out loud, of course" indicates awareness of the insult in what you are suggesting.

You and I and some African American forum posters on this board have previously discussed racial issues related to your posts. You have been invited to participate in the AA forum more than once to discuss these issues. I think it's time that we do. Will you join me in the AA forum to discuss which Plaintiff you think does not understand what they did?

To facilitate this discussion, I'm going to post the names of the Plaintiffs:

John Keoni Wright.
Kaylah and Kyler Wright
Ginet Borrero
Raymond Diaz, Jr.
Tauana Goins
Tanai Goins
Nina Doster
Patience and King McFarlane
Carla Williams
Jada Williams
Mona Pradia
Adia-Jendayi Pradia
Angeles Barragan
Natalie Mendoza

OF COURSE, you must have read the Complaint, and the details of their stories. I would like you to join me in the AA forum and explain which one of these Plaintiffs you think does not understand what they have done. That way, your thread can remain on point, and this separate issue can be addressed.

Thank you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025304977#post22

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Is there an actual

Copy of the complaint on the web? I'd like to read the Williams family story - the folks from back home in Rochester.

I find it interesting - in the mid/late 80's everyone was trying to sneak into the RSD from the weaker rural districts - my brother got through because my dad was off playing war games when he was born in Kentucky to my white mother - whose parents were present . . . birth certificate says he is white.

Me - they ended up sending to a private school in the city since I didn't have that to sneak sideways into the urban suburban program.

My niece graduated from Wilson Magnet a few years ago - and they did well by her there. So I'm very interested in reading which schools the parents are targeting.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

2. I believe this is it:

nylawyer.nylj.com/adgifs/decisions14/072914summons.pdf

[msanthrope]

4. Here's a link--

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1236510-summonses-and-complaint.html#document/p2

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. Thanks for providing the link. At least I know what you're talking about.

Although I certainly understand madfloridian's viewpoint. I'm sure the people filing the suit know why they want the suit from their own perspectives. Whether or not they know why Michelle Rhee's group is lining up behind them is open to question. It reminds me of the groups on the left who wanted to align with some total goober on the right during the ACA fight. Likely they don't care about WHY an anti-union RW group is willing to help them, they just want to obtain what they see as a better education for their children. Which is what everyone wants for their kids. But I'm strongly dubious that aligning with the teacher-union destroyers and charter school pushers will actually deliver on that need.

It's always a struggle in politics to balance the way in which two groups who are generally on the same side end up fighting over something that will end up being a loser for one group or another. Here we see AA pitted against labour, and RW education 'reformers' and privatizers happily providing support to undermine labour.

Whenever you find yourself vocally supported by a group on the right, you've always got to ask yourself 'Why?' and wonder if that means it would be best to try to find a different path to a solution to your problems.

[msanthrope]

5. Oh, I get what madflo is saying. But I see it as a struggle between the civil rights of students

and the property rights of teachers, with lots of coattail climbers looking out for their agenda.

Without a doubt, there are rightwing organizations that will support this lawsuit. That makes it even more imperative for the teacher's unions to get smarter about how they are addressing parent/student needs. Now, many will argue that the job of the union is to protect teachers, not students. I think that's shortsighted, and opens the door to others.

One way you do NOT address parent/teacher concerns is by suggesting that the Plaintiffs are somehow stupid, or otherwise being paid off.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. Nod.

I doubt the parents are being paid, but I imagine Brown's group is picking up all the associated legal fees.

[msanthrope]

8. I have no doubt that K&E is either pro bono or thinks they will be able to

recover from the defendant... after all this is a civil rights case. But don't hold me on that while I know federal recovery I don't know New York state law very well.

Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP bankrolled the Brown plaintiffs.... and nobody in their right mind today seems to have a problem with that. I think it smacks of paternalism when you insinuate that it's OK to file one type of suit but not another.

I think the question we have to ask ourselves is why these parents felt so abandoned by the system that they went the route that they did.

[msanthrope]

15. This post should be an OP in GD...it's perfect.

I think you encapsulated the Libertarian problem entirely....

At times, points made almost remind me of the majority white male Libertarians who holler about their civil rights and privacy, which were not granted others, so I look at them as if they are spoilt children, like when they are wailing about their high taxes to a person starving.

Indeed.....read this thread.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5004676

How horrible that colleges are going to get ratings, in part determined by the levels of violence they have on campus, that will help determine how much government funding they get! It's terrible! Bad Obama! Bad Arne Duncan!

To repeat a post I made on that critique:

George Will's rape column decried the new federal college rating system because it might include stats on violence that had been derived from "capacious" definitions of sexual assault:

Combine this with capacious definitions of sexual assault that can include not only forcible sexual penetration but also nonconsensual touching. Then add the doctrine that the consent of a female who has been drinking might not protect a male from being found guilty of rape. Then comes costly litigation against institutions that have denied due process to males they accuse of what society considers serious felonies.

Now academia is unhappy about DOE’s plan for government to rate every institution’s educational product. But the professors need not worry. A DOE official says this assessment will be easy: “It’s like rating a blender.” Education, gadgets — what’s the difference?

For shits and giggles, if a DUer wanted to see who else on DU is decrying this new rating system, and blaming the President, the Secretary of Education, and the DOE, they could google the phrase I have bolded in the helpful little box up at the right that admin has provided.

To the Jury...it's not against the TOS to refer to prior postings....the admin gave us a helpful little search box to do so.

Note.....here you have George Will, and a number of DUers critiquing the use of sexual assault rates in determining college rankings....it does not get more Libertarian or ODS than that.

Kozol? Ah..that was one of the books that convinced me to leave teaching and go to law school.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I totally agree - interesting - from one of the PDF's I accessed

These parents know their 'shit' - if you will. They aren't stupid or being paid - not when we look at this family.

4. Plaintiff John Keoni Wright's twin daughters, Kaylah and Kyler are New York
public school students whose divergent experiences at school exemplify the direct effects that a
teacher's quality has on a child's education. Kaylah and Kyler share nearly everything in
common, including their birth date and home life. But one variable separates their life
experiences and futures: last year, Kyler was assigned to an ineffective teacher.

5. The effects are apparent. In one year alone, the difference in the twins' teachers
caused measurable differences in their educational progress. Kaylah excelled with the benefit of
an effective teacher, while Kyler fell behind and is still struggling to catch up with her twin. In
terms of reading skills alone, Kaylah and Kyler are now reading several levels apart. The gulf
between Kaylah's and Kyler's learning illustrates what is a matter of common sense. An
ineffective teacher can leave a student ill-equipped to advance, or even to stay apace of those
alike in all respects except the quality of their teacher.

[msanthrope]

9. Yes...the story of the twins is an excellent example of what these parents

want. I simply can't imagine what that father must of been going through during that school year.

To suggest that these parents and their children didn't understand what they're asking for, in the context of the socioeconomic classes involved, is insulting.

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. I'm sorry ...

but I find the argument that teacher's unions are at all concerned with parent/student needs to be patently false. Teacher's unions' job is to protect teacher's jobs, paychecks and working conditions. ... period.

Teacher's Unions are no more concerned with parent/student needs than the UAW is concerned with an auto manufacturer building a good car.

[msanthrope]

11. Teacher's unions aren't concerned about students, but they claim to be when it suits them. And

most parents are smart enough to realize the difference between teachers advocating for their jobs, and teachers advocating for the kids.

Teacher's unions need to adapt if they are going to endure.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

12. If teaching is such an impossible job that people stop wanting to do it under such negative

conditions, then it will effect the students.

And that overreaching blanket statement that Teacher's Unions aren't concerned about students is absolutely ridiculous. I've been a member of a teachers' union and your statement is false regarding that particular union, and I suspect wrong regarding most teachers' unions.

[joshcryer]

13. Unions, by definition, are only concerned about their workers.

It's why "liberal Hollywood" unions support SOPA/PIPA.

All unions need to adapt. Especially those that are institutionalized.

[kwassa]

16. Speaking as a public school teacher and former union representative ...

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Virtually any teacher I have ever worked with will bend over to help any child, regardless of race or background. The biggest problem we have is that we are usually not asked.

In my school, and most of the schools in this very large school system, are children from the entire world. My school has kids from 90 different countries.

The union works with the school system on continual improvements. Our curriculum is recognized as good enough to be packaged and sold to other school systems.

I will also point out a simple fact: the top achieving school systems in this country, with the highest test scores, are systems with strong teacher unions. The weak union, or non-union states, are the low achievers.

Every single thing we talk about, in every school meeting, is how to make things better for our students to achieve greater outcomes. That is about all we talk about. We act on it, too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. We do not disagree as much as you my think ...

I have no problem with teachers ... most bend over backwards to go above and beyond for their students. Anecdotally, I have seen this in my sister ... a 30+ year teaching veteran and strong union member ... from spending money out of her pocket to provide supplies, clothing and food for her students.

Nor do I have a problem with teachers' unions ... I also know that school systems that have strong unions also tend towards the top of school systems.

I, also, agree that teachers spend a great deal of time talking about how to make things better for the students ... and I would venture to guess that better working conditions for the teachers is a big part of that discussion; whether it's small class sizes, more class room resources, more "unassigned" time that can be used for planning and/or providing individualized attention to students ... all of which positively affects student outcomes. But in the end, all of these things are working condition matters.

Though I have never worked with/for Teacher Unions, my other union experience informs me that positive and consistent working conditions make for happier, more productive employees; and happy, productive employees make for superior product outcomes (assuming management hasn't/doesn't make stupid product decisions.

I realize that many are offended with the student = product comparison; but in the end, it is what it is ... It is the job of teachers to produce the best student outcome possible, and it is the teachers' union's job to provide the best possible working conditions to promote the teachers' mission.