Religion
Related: About this forumThe real New Atheism: Rejecting religion for a just world
http://www.salon.com/2013/12/14/the_real_new_atheism_rejecting_religion_for_a_just_world/SATURDAY, DEC 14, 2013 12:00 PM MST
Hitchens didn't think rejecting religion would solve everything. But he knew only reason would give us justice
JEFFREY TAYLER
Christopher Hitchens (Credit: AP/Chad Rachman)
The ever-polemical atheist author Christopher Hitchens died two years ago this month, yet his incisive, erudite diatribes against religion continue to rile the faithful and spark debate. The latest anti-Hitch outburst comes from Sean McElwee, a writer and researcher of public policy who describes himself as a poorly practicing Christian who reads enough science to be functional at dinner parties. McElwee calls for a truce between believers and nonbelievers. But he stands on the losing side of both public opinion trends and history. According to a Pew poll conducted in 2012, a record number of young Americans a quarter of those between the ages of 18 and 29 see themselves as unaffiliated with any religion. Atheists ranks are swelling, and believers are finding it increasingly difficult to justify their faith.
McElwee begins by calling the New Atheist movement a rather disturbing trend in a country whose greatest reformer Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Reverend. Dr. King won fame as a civil rights leader, not as a religious figure. McElwee would do well to recall the words of Founding Father John Adams: the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion. McElwee goes on to attribute to New Atheists an unsound premise of his own concoction:
1. The cause of all human suffering is irrationality
2. Religion is irrational
3. Religion is the cause of all human suffering
Hitchens most notorious atheistic tome is entitled God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. But no serious reader could conclude from this book (or from the writings of the other New Atheists Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett whom McElwee also hopes to debunk) that he considers religion the sole wellspring of humankinds woes. Though he derided religion long before and after he published God Is Not Great, Hitchens never said any such thing, and no reasonable person would believe it. Are cancer and flesh-eating bacteria manifestations of irrationality? What about about wars over territory or natural resources? Poverty and inequality? Bullying and bulimia? The classical logical error of post hoc ergo propter hoc McElwee ascribes to New Atheists simply does not exist.
McElwee then jumps to Hitchens (misbegotten) support of the second Iraq war and attempts to press it into service to discredit him in matters of faith. Hitchens, as McElwee correctly notes, opposed the 1991 invasion of Iraq, but when George W. Bush was in office, according to McElwee, Hitchens decided that, in fact, bombing children was no longer so abhorrent because the 2003-2011 conflict was to be a final Armageddon between the forces of rationality and the forces of religion. No, this was not how Hitchens viewed the second Iraq war. He advocated invading Iraq to overthrow Saddam, who was, he contended, guilty of crimes against humanity, and he (mistakenly) assumed a stable democracy would result from the dictators ouster.
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Zambero
(8,974 posts)Over the course of human history it has justified and enabled wars, genocide, persecution, explosive population increases, institutionalized sexism, unlimited exploitation or natural resources, degradation of the environment (lest God be offended that we are ungrateful for "his gifts" , has spawned oppressive theocracies and corrupt alliances, and has been an unrelenting hindrance to meaningful scientific advances.
Religions have it right on one thing, whenever they preach that all the others are false. They are 100% correct on this, to include what other religions have to say about their own.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)the Terror of the French revolution and the Cultural Revolution in China and the splitting of the atom which have killed millions and has kept the world in fear of annihilation for most of the 20th century and all of the 21st.
Yeah, it was "science" that did all that.
CHECKMATE, atheists!
Zambero
(8,974 posts)to believe that scientific processes (or non-scientific revolutions for that matter) always work for the good of humankind or for the earth's well-being in general. But for those who choose to put their religious faith above proven scientific facts, for purposes of reinforcing ignorance, the good things that science has accomplished will also be rejected. The list is too long, but for starters: immunization against infectious disease, evidence of genetic predisposition to sexual orientation, climate study with recommendations for averting global catastrophe, the role of evolution, etc.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)Just as you say few are ignorant enough to believe that science works only for the good of man many are ignorant enough to blame faith as the cause, instead of mankinds corruption of it, for most of mans problems and failures.
longship
(40,416 posts)They always are making the same silly mistakes in attributing words to them that they never stated, a clear straw man technique, which seems to be the favorite strategy.
Glad to R&K this one.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Just 9 days ago you posted (and staunchly defended) the article which is now being torn apart in this one.
Some consistency would be awesome, cbayer, if it's a goal of yours to be taken seriously.
This is exactly what many of us were telling you in that other thread - and you blithely dismissed all objections, only eventually backing off a bit to say that what McElwee said wasn't "much" of an exaggeration.
Now you post an article that proves you wrong. Is this an admission of error? Do you regret defending McElwee now?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I'll give her credit for being consistently inconsistent, though.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You submitted this without apparent comment, but it seems like you just posted a direct attack upon your previous position...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I'm not sure where the idea came from that posting an article on DU implies an endorsement.
I think the topic is interesting and that both authors make interesting and valid points.
It is only if one insists that you be on a team and take a side that it may become confusing.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)are taking a side. Good luck to your team, cbayer.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Rug did it a lot more, but unless I misread your intent...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Why would that be a problem?
Again, you seem to assume that if someone posts something, it is an endorsement. I don't agree with that.
This article is a counterpoint to that one. I don't agree with much of what he says, but I think he makes a cogent and rather articulate argument for his POV.
Not sure what all the brouhaha is about.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I didn't say posting it was an endorsement.
Just as Hitchens didn't say the root of all evil is religion.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and to post both things I agree with and don't agree with.
I am permitted to have a POV that may be different from someone else's and to change that POV over time.
I am permitted to be wrong about some things and right about some things.
This is a discussion board not a shooting gallery, imo.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Let me phrase it another way; does this OP signal a change in your position in the previous thread?
People do change positions as arguments and supporting information are presented.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and some of which I did not.
So what?
The OP signals nothing except my taking the opportunity to share this rebuttal to a previously posted OP that was controversial.
Why is there a need to make it in any way personal?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Again, I ask you, why the need to make this personal?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)trying to understand your position. Motives. Things like that. It seems highly unusual. Especially in attacking Hitchens, who was always very careful not to over-step into absolutes that he couldn't support. To honestly and openly delineate between atheism and his anti-theism, etc.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If you still don't understand, then ask me what my position is and I will discuss it with you.
Motives? My motive is discuss topics I am interested in with people who don't make the discussion personal.
Attacking Hitchens is my right. Attacking you is not.
Hitchens was an open anti-theist. I don't agree with anti-theists and think they represent a threat to the liberal/progressive ideals that many believers and non-believers share. I will push back against that when I have the opportunity to do so.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Sounds like a pretty black-and-white position you've got for yourself there.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)What people are taking you to task for is your blatant hypocrisy. You roundly condemned and attacked people in the previous thread who made the same exact criticisms of your first article, yet here you are now posting an article which vindicates the people you attacked.
You don't want this to be a shooting gallery? Then put away YOUR gun.
rug
(82,333 posts)With oodles of well-crafted apologetics and bon mots.