Is there a common role for doubt among discussions of religion across the broad spectrum of opinion?

[pinto]

Doubt may well be something we all hold in common.

[Xipe Totec]

1. I doubt it. nt

[pinto]

4. LOL.

[Brettongarcia]

34. It's usual, when we doubt, to say we should "have more faith"; but that's not what the Bible says

Normally when people doubt the claims of relilgion, believers assure us the answer is just having more faith. But oddly, my own studies showed that while Paul stressed faith, the rest of the Bible often in effect warned against too much faith.

Far from stressing "faith", he Bible constantly warned that often our holiest men are bad or "false," following "false prophets" and so forth. Therefore, far from having faith in them, we should examine them closely, to see if they are good or false. As determined largely by looking to see if they can produce the physical material "miracles" that were promised.

Finally Jesus himself told us "do not believe me," do not have faith or belief, if he and his followers are not producing huge, miraculous "works."

(See the related writings of Woodbridge Goodman).

"Faith" as it turns out, is not the Bible's final answer, when we seem to0 see false things in our holy men. When our priests and their claims appear false, then far from continuing to believe and have faith in them, instead we are supposed to simply conclude that yes indeed, they were the foretold false priests, following "false prophets," "false apostles," bad churches, and so forth.

[hrmjustin]

2. I have doubts all the time. l constantly pray for faith.

[cbayer]

3. Given the choice between doubt and certainty, I think the wise person

will always choose doubt.

Those who choose certainty in religious matters are fundamentalists.

If there is a single area of human existence where doubt is most critical, it is religious beliefs or lack of beliefs.

Because no one really knows. No one.

[skepticscott]

6. You present the same bogus choice all the time..why?

The choice is not between "doubt" and "certainty". The choice is between recognizing that we can come to know things with more and more confidence and reliability as inquiry proceeds and evidence is developed, and refusing to recognize that, but instead choosing (or pretending) to wallow in intellectual nihilism, classifying all points of view, all claims, all theories and all opinions as equally valid forever, no matter what evidence comes to light.

Wise and rational people choose the first.

[trotsky]

16. She refuses to read (and/or understand) the brilliant "Relativity of Wrong" essay

by Asimov, which perfectly explains your point. I guess Asimov is another of those evil fundamentalist atheists. At least he did her the favor of going the way of the dinosaurs already.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. The misuse of the term fundamentalist is typical.

There is no atheist theology to be strictly adhered to. Instead cabayer engages in equivocation in order to make atheists who refuse to believe in supernatural deities without evidence the same as religious zealots who interpret their sacred texts literally. It is just plain dishonest.

[cbayer]

31. Hey, Warren. I'm going to ask you a favor here.

Would you have the common courtesy to direct any comments you have about me to me instead of talking to others about me. I think that would be particularly important if you are going to impugn my character by saying I am dishonest.

If you insist on talking about me instead of to me, I might not see your posts and have the opportunity to respond. I understand why you might want to do that, but I'm asking that you consider being more direct.

But that's up to you.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. hey cbayer I'll discuss what I want where I want with who I want

if that is ok with you. Or not. That's up to you.

[cbayer]

33. Suit yourself.

I was asking as a favor, not telling you what you can and can't do.

I guess one could interpret your need to talk about me instead of to me in many different ways.

[skepticscott]

35. One could interpret it

as an acknowledgement that it's a waste of time to try to get you to respond to direct posts that do anything but praise your arguments and positions. Anything that exposes your arguments as bogus or that is not sufficiently deferential has been variously dismissed by you as a "gotcha" question, or as a "personal attack", "bullying", "harassing" or "stalking".

If you choose not to engage others in the spirit of an attempt to get at the truth (as opposed to an attempt to make everyone feel happy), that's your business. But don't complain when people stop trying to engage YOU, and simply talk around you instead.

[pinto]

8. Yeah, I think certainty is fundamentalism in this context. Across the spectrum.

And I mean doubt in a neutral sense - maybe, who knows, good point, could be, not a clue, don't know if it matters, etc.

And, I doubt it...

[cbayer]

9. I am full of doubt about a great many things.

That's why I like games with definitive answers, like Sudoku.

And I always loved math because there was a concrete answer.

But it's doubt that keeps me alert.

Hope you are having a wonderful boxing day, pinto.

[pinto]

10. A good day. Learned about boxing day. Checked in here to find some good talks. Ordered take out.

Setting up a movie for later.

I love math, just have a knack for it, fwiw. Doubt, it's not so easy. Causes me to think and rethink some things. And when all else fails, I dance.

[cbayer]

11. One can not help but dance when Love Shack comes on.

I saw them at the HoB in NOLA a while back. What a hoot.

Going to finish the dinner now and take care of el sicko.

[rug]

5. Doubt is inherent.

[TexasProgresive]

7. Mark 9:24

Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

If there is no doubt there is no faith.
Maybe that's a Christian koan.

[edhopper]

12. Well you should approach something with doubt

but after a while, when all evidence is weighed, and nothing of any substance runs counter to your conclusion, then doubt has less and less of a presence. You ask others to look at your result and see if you went awry. But in time your doubt diminishes as the counter arguments falter.

[rrneck]

13. Doubt is inversly porportional to belief, so I doubt it. nt

[pinto]

14. Doubt meters belief, assumptions and stereotypes, imo.

A usefull if somewhat uncomfortable thing. Goes hand in hand with questioning. Where it all ends up...

[rrneck]

15. Not if you ignore the meter.

Offhand I would call doubt that is actually put into practice skepticism. You might say "functional doubt". But I might be indulging in niggling semantics.

[trotsky]

17. Evidently not.

Some folks feel that by expressing doubt about someone else's beliefs, you are telling them they're wrong, and no one is allowed to do that lest they be labeled a fundamentalist.

[el_bryanto]

18. Are you doubting someone's beliefs? or are you certain they are wrong?

I've been pondering for a while though what the point to religious tolerance as a personal value is - I can see it's value as a political value, but as a personal value isn't it a bit of a lie?

If someone is an Athiest or a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist that implies they have a definite opinion on what the right answer is; a Christian presumably thinks that the other answers people have come up with is wrong. They might be good worthy people, but they are wrong about what God is and what he/she is like. It's the same for other religions, with a few exceptions, and same for atheists (there's the atheist/agnostic continuum but I'm using atheist here in the traditional sense as one who holds that there are no Gods).

Bryant

[trotsky]

19. Can we be certain Fred Phelps' beliefs are wrong? n/t

[el_bryanto]

20. We can be certain that his actions are wrong; or we can agree that they are wrong.

But yes that does underline my point - if you were in the same room as Fred Phelps for some reason at a social event would you shun him or confront him? I would (probably shun). Or someone from one of those white supremacist churches. I certainly wouldn't pretend that they were worth engaging.

Is there a distinction between false and destructive beliefs?

Bryant

[trotsky]

21. I'm just trying to establish whether it is EVER acceptable to tell someone their beliefs are wrong.

Some people don't think so. Your other questions must wait until we establish whether it's OK to tell someone they're wrong.

Do you think it's OK? Under any circumstances?

[el_bryanto]

22. OK - Yes I think it is sometimes acceptable to tell someone their beliefs are wrong

I don't know what you mean by under any circumstances though - could you clarify that? Because I do certainly think there are times when it is not appropriate to tell someone their beliefs are wrong.

Bryant

[trotsky]

23. By 'under any circumstances" I meant ARE there any.

Since your answer to my question was yes, then that means that yes, there are circumstances under which we can tell people their beliefs are wrong.

[el_bryanto]

24. OK. Well I'm glad we cleared that up.

So now we can move onto the value of personal or social religious tolerance (as opposed to political religious tolerance)? Or do you feel like you've accomplished what you set out to?

Bryant

[trotsky]

25. Covers what I had mentioned in my first post kicking off this subthread.

You agree with me that it can be OK to tell someone their beliefs are wrong. Not sure if you needed anything else?

[el_bryanto]

26. Actually what you said was

Some folks feel that by expressing doubt about someone else's beliefs, you are telling them they're wrong, and no one is allowed to do that lest they be labeled a fundamentalist.

Are you expressing doubt in someone else's beliefs or are you telling them they are wrong?

Bryant

[trotsky]

27. What my statement said is that there are some people who think those are equivalent acts.

And that when you tell someone their beliefs are wrong, you are a fundamentalist. I am glad you agree with me that such a position is not true.

[el_bryanto]

28. We agree on that. Where we might disagree is under what circumstances

telling someone is wrong is appropriate.

Bryant

[trotsky]

29. True. So neither of us is some kind of extremist who thinks it's ALWAYS inappropriate...

and that anyone engaging in the behavior is a "fundamentalist."

Unless we're both fundamentalists, I guess.