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TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:18 AM Jan 2014

How did I miss the Satanists in Oklahoma City yesterday...

when this first came out.

I'm linking to the Washington Times story about it partly because it's just the same straight story from the AP feed everyone else ran, partly because there's a Wendy Davis ad on the page (how'd that happen?) and partly just to be a punk.

“The monument has been designed to reflect the views of Satanists in Oklahoma City and beyond,” said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the group, in a statement reported by the AP. “The statue will also have a functional purpose as a chair where people of all ages may sit on the lap of Satan for inspiration and contemplation.”

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/7/satanists-statue-design-oklahoma-capitol-sit-lap-s/#ixzz2pj3uxaAK
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

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How did I miss the Satanists in Oklahoma City yesterday... (Original Post) TreasonousBastard Jan 2014 OP
Here's an artists rendering: DetlefK Jan 2014 #1
Are you sure about the children. cbayer Jan 2014 #4
Simple solution - take the 10 commandments statue down. cbayer Jan 2014 #2
I hope this isn't resolved... TlalocW Jan 2014 #3
It's not legit. rug Jan 2014 #5
That's pretty funny. cbayer Jan 2014 #6
What is not legit about it? LostOne4Ever Jan 2014 #8
"all satanist are actually atheists". rug Jan 2014 #9
You recall wrongly. okasha Jan 2014 #12
Actually this is what Im referring to LostOne4Ever Jan 2014 #17
Is the Hindu group a legitimate one? okasha Jan 2014 #7
Or using a clever prank edhopper Jan 2014 #10
You say tomahto, I say tomayto. okasha Jan 2014 #11
Sometimes it takes a stunt like this skepticscott Jan 2014 #13
Heck, yeah libodem Jan 2014 #14
Here's some more. rug Jan 2014 #15
Fabulous libodem Jan 2014 #16

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
1. Here's an artists rendering:
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jan 2014

The children are there for illustration-purposes and are not part of the sculpture.


On the one hand, I'm for it, just out of spite, on the other hand, I'm against it, due to the morals Satan represents.

TlalocW

(15,382 posts)
3. I hope this isn't resolved...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:43 PM
Jan 2014

Until I see what the Hindu group(s) is/are proposing. I want to see the proposed design for the monkey god sculpture they want to donate.

TlalocW

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
8. What is not legit about it?
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 05:51 AM
Jan 2014

About everything I have read about Satanism making it pretty clear that almost all satanist are actually atheists. Nothing in the article seems to claim any different.

Further, it is my understanding that what they mean by satan is a metaphor for rebelling against authority or something to that extent (im probably vastly over simplifying things).

The Vice article you linked says pretty much the same thing.

Personally though, if I were going to try and get under the skin of the right wing I would bring forth people from different Christian Sects/or a few Jewish citizens and get them all to contest the monument for having the wrong "version" of the ten commandments.

IIRC there is a Catholic version, a protestant version, and a Jewish version and they are all slightly different. Then there is the version of the ten commandments ending with the commandment not to boil a kid goat in its mothers milk. IIRC that is the version that was actually written on the stone tablets in exodus.


okasha

(11,573 posts)
12. You recall wrongly.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 06:54 PM
Jan 2014

The "ritual decalogue" is part of the Deuteronomic holiness code, which includes some 600 or so rules for maintaining ritual purity. It is not the version of the 10 Commandments that appears in Exodus, nor is it among those generally taught as such.

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
17. Actually this is what Im referring to
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jan 2014

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Exodus 34[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
34 The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the Lord had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the Lord. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”

10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 “Do not make any idols.

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.


Further no where in Exodus does it call what is traditionally called the ten commandments (the ethical decalogue) the ten commandments or even say that they were written on any tablets. However, the above clearly calls the ritual decalogue the "Ten Commandments." The ethical decalogue in Exodus appears to just be god giving yet more commandments to Moses. Even in Deuteronomy they are not directly called the "ten commandments" and only there does it say they were written on any tablets.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Deuteronomy 5[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
5 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

7 “You shall have no other gods before me.

8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

16 “Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

17 “You shall not murder.

18 “You shall not commit adultery.

19 “You shall not steal.

20 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

21 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

22 These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

Both Exodus and Deuteronomy say that God wrote the same text on both sets of the tablets but Exodus clearly says it was the ritual decalogue while Deuteronomy indirectly says its the ethical. The article I link even shows that the books appear to have such contradictions due to different redactors creating their own additions and one combining them all. Its possible, that rather than the ritual decalogue being part of the 600+ commandments its actually the ethical decalogue that belongs in that category. But, of course, this depends on which version you find to be definitive.

However, you are right in that by Jewish Tradition the Ethical Decalogue is called the Ten Commandments. But the text backs up exactly what I said:


[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]IIRC that is the version that was actually written on the stone tablets in exodus.

Even ignoring the ritual decalogue my statement is still true in that Catholics, Protestants, and Jews each have slightly different versions of the Ethical Decalogue and this difference has caused friction among those sects in the past.

So, Its not that You or I are wrong so much as its complicated

okasha

(11,573 posts)
7. Is the Hindu group a legitimate one?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:59 PM
Jan 2014

Because if they are, that will test the actual Constitutional issue here. Simplest solution, of course, is to remove the 10 Commandments. No thanks to Messner for muddying the waters.

edhopper

(33,579 posts)
10. Or using a clever prank
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 10:45 AM
Jan 2014

to highlight the need for the State to not endorse religion.
This might offend many Oklahomans.
I personally find the Ten Commandments offensive.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
13. Sometimes it takes a stunt like this
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:38 PM
Jan 2014

to drive home the point to juvenile and brain-addled fundies. Or other people who are just plain clueless on the concept. Or to put the lie to their claim that this is about equal treatment, and not exclusive government endorsement and support for one, and only one, religion: Xstianity. That is, after all, their goal.

libodem

(19,288 posts)
14. Heck, yeah
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 10:15 PM
Jan 2014

I say put 'em all up. I love to see them lose their minds.

Can't help it. Hope they get a big ol' Budda and some giant, Muslim symbol. Muslims wouldn't go for any actual depiction, I take it? Wouldn't they find it blasphemous? Still some elegant symbolic depiction of our religious tolerance for all.

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