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Related: About this forumCatholic school apologizes for fried chicken, watermelon Black History Month menu
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/catholic-school-apologizes-plans-serve-fried-chicken-black-history-month-article-1.1605071
Some parents and pupils at Carondelet High School were offended after finding out the all-girls school planned to serve up fried chicken, cornbread and watermelon to celebrate Black History Month.
Carondelet promptly removed the meal from its menu and apologized for the decision, NBC Bay Area reports. The school also held a diversity assembly on Wednesday.
"I'd like to apologize for the announcement and any hurt this caused students, parents or community members," Principal Nancy Libby said in an apology letter sent to parents. "Please know that at no time at Carondelet do we wish to perpetrate racial stereotypes."
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lunasun
(21,646 posts)
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)I don't really know why fried chicken and watermelon are racial stereotypes as everybody eats them especially in the south.
I suppose that both should be eliminated from the diet because they might offend.- But please send some to my house.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are you saying you don't see how serving those items to celebrate Black History Month could be viewed as racist?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You forgot the 
thingy.
Because otherwise I have a hard time believing you don't see fried chicken, watermelon, and corn bread as racist menu options.
okasha
(11,573 posts)(plus mashed potatoes with cream gravy and green beans) was the South's traditional Sunday-after-church dinner, eaten by Southerners of all colors and mixtures thereof.
I can hardly wait for the outrage when the kids propose tamales for Cinco de Mayo.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)doesn't mean you need to do so for the Catholic Church in this regard.
And Cinco de Mayo itself is a ridiculous holiday to celebrate. And tamales doesn't have the racist overtones of fried chicken and watermelon. Are are you really that obtuse. Just in case you are, check out the Google image search for "fried chicken watermelon" and let me know if you understand the racism involved.
okasha
(11,573 posts)One. You obviously are unable to tell the difference between an "apologist" and someone who merely does not share your own virulent hatred.
Two. I am a mixed-race Southerner. I have both prepared this meal and shared it in the homes of family and friends more times than I can begin to count. I suspect that Texas Progressive has had similar experiences.
Oh, and Three. This story actually has nothing to do with the Catholic Church except to be posted as one more excuse for outrage by the group's inveterate Catholic-bashers.
And before I forget, Four. Your remark that Cinco de Mayo is "a ridiculous holiday to celebrate" is racist.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)She doesn't understand the racism involved. Or didn't, does now, and is ashamed to admit it and apologize. And doesn't understand how perfect an example of an apologist she is, when she condemns hatred of racism.
rug
(82,333 posts)Watch out, you may get a real reply.
rug
(82,333 posts)
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that "fried chicken and watermelon" isn't a common racist trope?
Do you think that Cinco de Mayo is a wonderful celebration of Mexican heritage and to think differently is racist?
Just answer those two questions. I don't need other snark from you.
rug
(82,333 posts)It is a racist trope among racists, which takes nothing away from the point she was making.
Wonderful or not, Cinco de Mayo, though not Mexico's Independence Day, is in fact an important holiday with roots in Mexican identity. Maybe you think differently about it in Wisconsin.
I don't need any "cheerleader" snark or any other kind of snark from you either.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Which would explain the reaction. The two statements above seem to indicate that there is no such connection to racism and imply that that this is manufactured outrage just to Catholic bash. I did no such thing. I argued the racism.
Cinco de Mayo is an "important" holiday in the US. Not so much in Mexico. Really at all. You have Google-fu skills; It shouldn't take you long to find plenty of very strong Hispanic voices saying it's a stupid holiday. But that would require to you stop with the "Wisconsin people don't understand things" snark.
And I don't give a shit whether you want snark from me. It seems to be the core of our relationship on here. Do you not see the irony of you going for the Wisconsin snark and then telling me you don't need my snark?
The fact that you understood what I actually said--as opposed to what the ping pong players apparently think I said--is appreciated.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I present you with real arguments and your only reply is going to be ad homs? Does anyone take you seriously?
okasha
(11,573 posts)I'm going to get to you.
And speaking of ad homs. . . .
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)One. I know quite well what an apologist is. As do you. Your smoke and mirrors do nothing to change that.
Two. Did you go to the link? Are you seriously going to tell me, as a mixed-race Southerner, that you do you have any understanding of "fried chicken and watermelon" as being a racist stereotype of blacks in the US? If you are serious about that, then go to the link and you'll finally get some exposure.
Three. it has as much to do with the Catholic Church as many of other OPs about atheists made in here by your cheerleader below.
Four. Of the many Mexican students I have taught over the years, not a single one has ever heard of or given a shit about Cinco de Mayo. It's an American feel-good holiday. There are some real Mexican holidays we could celebrate if we really cared about them but we don't.
rug
(82,333 posts)http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/school-apologizes-for-black-history-menu
Granted, it doesn't serve your agenda but it's honest.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)"Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" should cover this case.
I do wonder if some of our Catholic bashers would have jumped on this if it had happened at a public school.
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)The only statement I have made in this thread is to point out to those that don't see it that this was a menu with clear racist undertones. Appears the school in question now sees that and has apologized.
Do YOU think it had undertones of racism to the menu? Not that they intended it that way, but that "fried chicken and watermelon" is a common racist trope.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Think stupidity, rather than deliberate racism
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Where in this post have I faulted the RCC for this and shown "Catholic hate"? My only entry to this is when someone (laughably, IMHO) argued that this wasn't a racist menu. That is ALL I've ever talked about. And it seems the school in question understands it had racist undertones. Perhaps you could tell that to the person you were cheerleading up above who is making a clear arguement that it isn't racist.
rug
(82,333 posts)This private high school, charging $15,000+ per year is an enclave of economic privilege that clumsily tripped over that privilege while attempting to make a benign statement about black history.
Here's your de rigeur Catholic bashing with a dash of personal insult added just for the hell of it.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It was a statement that this is just as legitimate a post in here as a lot of what you post. If you see that as a personal insult, then perhaps you want to adjust what you post.
rug
(82,333 posts)Perhaps you want to adjust what you post.
You want to stop just posting the clappy hands and "excellent post" and I'll stop with the cheerleader comments. Especially when you have said things that are contrary to what you have deemed an "excellent post" when you agree it is a racist trope.
rug
(82,333 posts)We'll see who enjoys it more.
okasha
(11,573 posts)One. You are in fact engaged in Catholic-bashing. You referred to me, inaccurately, as an "apologist" for the Catholic Church. The Church, as an official body, had absolutely nothing to do with the menu choices. The clear intent of the OP, however, was to imply that the Church as a whole is racist. Your language makes it clear that you endorse the OP's position.
Two. Yes, I'm aware that the association of watermelon with Black Americans is a racist stereotype. That's specifically why I used the more accurate phrase,"fruit of the season," which would include such things as, say, peach ice cream.
Three. Rug nailed this one. Almost anything can become a racist trope if so used by racists. The cross, for example, becomes a racist trope in the hands of the sheet-and-pillowcase set. That is no reason for non-racists to cede it to them. Or to cede fried chicken. If you truly believe fried chicken is racist in and of itself, turn off your computer and go picket a Popeye's.
More later.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)1. What I actually said is that just because you are an apologist, you didn't need to be so in this instance. I think I made it very clear by that, that I wasn't blaming this on the RCC as a whole. In fact, I kindly request that you show the language I have used in here which does that. My only entrance in to this thread has been (and for the most part my participation has been limited to) a discussion of whether the menu had racist undertones (a discussion I feel it is ridiculous to have).
2. And there is a big difference between fried chicken and seasonal fruit and fried chicken and watermelon. Watermelon is not in season right now yet the decided to serve it. Interesting, isn't it?
3. I am not saying that we need to stop eating fried chicken (well, as a vegetarian for animal rights reasons, it would not make me sad in any way if people stopped eating chicken all together but that is a discussion for a different thread in a different group). So let's cut through the animosity here for a minute. Are you really saying that you don't see the difference between a restaurant that specialized in serving fried chicken (Popeye's) and a random school picking fried chicken and watermelon as a celebration of Black History Month? You know there's a difference. And hell, I would say it would be racist if someone on TV said "Well, those blacks sure do like their Popeye's." And if someone said that, I bet there would be several threads about it in GD. And if someone came into that thread and said, "Well, I'm sure there are blacks that eat fried chicken so what's the problem with that statement" that there would be a lot of flack from that. I see little difference between that and what is being said here. Explain where I'm not seeing things clearly, I guess, but I think it's pretty clear. And I don't blame this on the Catholic church. Probably not even the administration of the school. As a teacher, I have no idea if the administration approves the lunch menu but I would imagine not. I would guess this is just someone really ignorant and stupid or both (or maybe they are racist but I don't think so) that made the menu. And I'm fine with that. They apologized and said it was dumb. What I had/have a problem with is people on a progressive site making the claim that "fried chicken and watermelon" as a menu celebration of Black History month does not carry significant racist undertones. Of course it does for fuck's sake.
When you got more, I'll likely respond.
okasha
(11,573 posts)1. You brought the Church openly into the discussion (the OP only did so obliquely) by characterizing me as an apologist for the Catholic Church. You're wrong about that, too, but what the hey? It makes for solidarity among a certain set.
2. The watermelon question was asked and answered above. I'm not going to repeat myself.
3. I assume, since the menu was chosen by the school kids--who are from California, not the South--that they simply didn't know about the connotation of watermelon during Black History Month. And of course you can get watermelon now. It comes in from Chile and is rather dreadful, but it's certainly avalaible. No "Interesting, isn't it?" snideness about it.
4. I see you've read Gustavo Arrellano's "Gringo de Mayo" essay, though the quote should have been marked as such. I actually agree that May 5 is not the best date to celebrate the defeat of French imperial colonialism in Mexico. Had anyone asked me (unfortunately the Congreso didn't) I would have chosen June 5, the day on which Juarez frmally took control of the government.
As it is, el Cinco is the date designated not only to celebrate Zaragoza's victory at Puebla but the defeat of the French imperial regime and the end of European attempts to annex Mexico.
It also marks the taking of power by the first inidgenous president of Mexico, Benito Juarez. So again, yes, there are distinct racial aspects to the holiday, and some white guy's disparaging it as "ridiculous" certainly has racist undertones. (And overtones and middle tones.) Perhaps one of the reasons it's so popular in the US is that it represents the aspirations of a minority population living among whites who are not only ignorant but dismissive of Latin American culture. And perhaps that fact played a role in your "Mexican" students'
responses to a white male authority figure.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)O RLY?
That's a strange assertion to make, given that most Mexicans don't actually celebrate Cinco de Mayo.
okasha
(11,573 posts)I live in a 95% Hispanic community, directly across the Rio Grande from a major Mexican city. If we "don't actually celebrate Cinco de Mayo" wotthehell is all that singing and dancing and speechifying and eating and drinking and flag waving and special Masses on May 5 about?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Didn't realize they were all so close to the border. You must get around.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)It was becoming a very big deal in Los Angeles in the mid '90s, when I last lived there. Mexican-Americans started celebrating it in the 1860s in the US.
Major festival with many music stages.
I like it because it is actually my birthday. I also like Mexican food.
Rob H.
(5,351 posts)aren't part of a racist stereotype? (Note that I'm talking about watermelon specifically and not "seasonal fruit" generically because watermelon is what the school intended to serve.) I live in the American south and it's been that way since long before I was born 40+ years ago and it's still that way today in some places.
Arit John
February 6, 2014
...
The problem stems from the way fried chicken is associated with black people, and the historical baggage that comes with it. The same way blackface recalls minstrel shows, the "black people love fried chicken" image recalls negative portrayals of black people. According to Claire Schmidt at the University of Missouri, it started with Birth of a Nation, the 1915 film on the founding of Ku Klux Klan....
...
And in case you're tempted to think that sort of portrayal is a thing of the past, like minstrel shows, think back to what professional golfer Sergio Garcia said to his nemesis, Tiger Woods, when asked if he'd ever invite Woods to dinner. "We'll have him 'round every night," Garcia said. "We will serve fried chicken." Woods was not amused. When Republican Colorado State Sen. Vicki Marble associated diabetes and mortality rates with barbecue and chicken, even the Colorado GOP had to take a step back.
...
"Just as the undesirable leftovers of farm animals, such as pig intestines and feet, are linked to the slave diet, watermelon is the food most associated with the 19th and 20th century depictions of blacks as lazy simpletons."--Theodore Johnson, "African Americans and the Watermelon Stereotype"
...
So, no, a slice of watermelon isn't racist in and of itself. But when people talk about black people loving watermelon, they're talking about a lot more than food. They're talking about a stereotype with a lot of racist history — history still embraced by some of the worst people on the internet. History is important — any Black History Month celebration that ignores the experiences and portrayals of black people in this country is shallow at best. If you want to acknowledge black history this month, learn it.
And if the article above isn't enough to convince you, do a Google image search for "watermelon racial stereotype" and take a good, long look at the results.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)But I'm sure our friend thinks that argument by hit-and-run snark is a much better way to get at the truth.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)If the people they despise, like you and me, are against something, then they have this knee-jerk reaction to be FOR it.
It's pretty hilarious, actually. 
goldent
(1,582 posts)that someone wouldn't find racist. Maybe hotdogs and beans would be ok.
okasha
(11,573 posts)that the girls conflated "Southern" and "Black." I do wonder what some of the more histrionic posters on this thread would consider an appropriate menu for Black History Month. Perhaps one will enlighten us.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in one of the many posts linked to, showing why suggesting fried chicken and watermelon as a menu was racist. But even if there wasn't one, that doesn't mean your post was any less despicable apologetics.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Why not do some research into the various countries from which the blacks in that community can trace their ancestry to and then get a menu with food from that country. For example, we have a couple students from Kenya at our school (in Wisconsin??? Really??? Yeah, we're not the backwater diversity desert some seem to think--though we are pretty white here in the middle). Serve a Kenyan meal. Respect the culture. Or, if you are like me and there aren't a large number of black students, have the students in the school do some research into the major areas of black immigration (voluntary and involuntary) to the US and then have a menu from each of those cultures each week or every so many days if you have a lot of options and a kitchen that can cook well beyond processed food.
Or just serve fried chicken, watermelon, and Kool-aid and know that somewhere on a progressive discussion website, there will be people defending you. (Yeah, I know they didn't go so far as to include Kool-aid but they might as well have.) Shit, why not have a minstrel show as entertainment during that lunch. Get the play director to go in black face. Or, serve breakfast for lunch and have the lunch ladies dress up like Aunt Jemima and then when they dish out the food they can say, "Oh, Massa's gonna luv this, mmm hmm."
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)If I posted that word in GD (and I have no inclination to nor do I use the word), I would be called a sexist by at least a handful of people. Might want to reconsider that word.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)In her mind, it's justified, because we atheists deserve to be hated.