Religion
Related: About this forumKentucky snake handling preacher, reality TV star dead from snake bite
http://www.wate.com/story/24737348/kentucky-snake-handling-preacher-dead-from-snake-biteMIDDLESBORO, KY (WATE) - Jamie Coots, a preacher known for snake handling, as well as being the focus of a reality TV show, died Saturday after being bitten by a snake.
According to the Middlesboro Police Department, emergency crews responded to reports of a possible snakebite victim at a church on Evans Drive around 8:30 p.m., but say the victim had already left the scene by the time they arrived.
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Coots was the pastor of Full Gospel Tabernacle in Jesus Name church in Middlesboro. He is also the subject of the National Geographic Channel series "Snake Salvation".
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cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)They put their faith to the test. Often they fail. That takes courage, unlike others of the same ilk.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)but some have reported that the snakes are kept dehydrated and starving to reduce the chance of them biting the handler. I wonder if they would be willing to handle a freshly caught snake. If not then why not. The son said that they have been using the snake that bit his father for several months.
Since these snakes usually are killed as pests anyway someone in the extermination business could have a little fun by bringing a freshly caught (or well cared for snake) to the handling service.
okasha
(11,573 posts)a painful, possibly serious, injury on someone is "a little fun?"
Wow.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)I agree. I just would like to see how trusting in their God they were when the deck is not stacked against the serpent. The handling of snakes is a physical manifestation of their faith. Lets put it to the test.
As an expansion on this idea. We can view the ability to handle snakes (actually withstand snakebites) as a testable hypothesis of the Bible,
"they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison"
okasha
(11,573 posts)The snakes (mis)used in this practice have to have been wild-caught by members of the congregation, since possessing them is illegal. That means that at least some of the church members have aleady been exposed to maximum threat and have survived. Even poisonous snakes deliver a "dry"--non venemous--bite about 20% of the time in the wild. The fatality rate for snakebites in the US averages about .01%. For every 1000 people bitten, 999 surrvive. Statistically, the Bible's way out ahead, and I would guess the folk who "test" this "hypothesis" already know that.
.
As a Native American Traditionalist, I'd say that the religious lesson to be derived from all snake bites is "Thou shalt not piss off Grandmother Snake by harrassing Her children."
Iggo
(47,552 posts)...I voted that the fundamentalists were the ones who were interpreting their bible correctly.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If these people REALLY want to demonstrate the power of their faith, they'd be handling inland taipans, not candy-ass sometimes-lethal rattlesnakes.
I had always been taught that the verse which refers to 'taking up serpents' was a metaphor for struggling against sin. I don't think God ever asked us to kill ourselves.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)Another person reads it another way.
Who's right? Who's wrong? And what criteria can be used to say that one person's interpretation of the bible is better, more right, or more correct than anyone else's?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)If your religion gets you killed unnecessarily, or if it causes you to kill others, you've got the entire religion thing wrong, regardless of which book you are interpreting.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)there are other snake handlers who are bitten and who don't die.
People die every day from things. Maybe it was his time. Maybe god needed another Angel.
Maybe he didn't pray hard enough. Maybe he was a sinner. Maybe he didn't pray good enough.
God works in mysterious ways, you know.
There is no guide-book. The bible is open to a different interpretation by every person who reads it.
So saying he's wrong because he's dead....well, what about the ones who say they're right because they're alive after being bitten?
Beachwood
(106 posts)I find it interesting from the article that he refused medical intervention and simply went with his faith.
Even though so many religious people of all stripes continue to say that their fate is in their god's hands, very few of them will go to this extreme in their beliefs. In fact, most of them run to doctors and hospitals whenever their fate is challenged by physical discomfort, in an effort to stave off death.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)and use faith as a means of healing.
It's simply how society has become wussified and runs off for a pill to cure whatever ails them...heart attacks, HIV, cancer...prayer and faith go a long way in healing. Maybe people should toughen up, learn that death is a part of life, and just DEAL with things the way people used to. PUt it in God's hands, as you say.
It's good that he went with his faith and allowed the ever-knowing hand of God to determine if it was his time or not. In fact, I think more people who are bitten by venomous snakes should do the same. God has a plan. His ways are mysterious. If it is your time, it is your time, right?
Beachwood
(106 posts)Let's let them live and die by their faith in their god. Just as long as I can live and die by my "faith" in my agnostic medicine.
Iggo
(47,552 posts)Oops.
stopbush
(24,396 posts)How about: "you dodged a bullet. You beat the odds. It was purely happenstance that you survived, and it had nothing to do with your religious beliefs."
THAT would be an honest and reasonable answer, don't you think?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)He played with poisonous snakes, and now he's dead.
The survival rate of snake handlers who get bitten isn't going to be any better than the survival rate of hikers who get bitten. The survival rate will be determined by the severity of the bite, and one's access to treatment.
Personally, I have no problem with these folks working to take themselves out of the gene pool.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)n/t.
rug
(82,333 posts)msongs
(67,405 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)he's a candidate for a Darwin Award?
Heddi
(18,312 posts)who are we to judge? He was testing his faith. Maybe God had other plans for him. And his dad, who apparently died the same way (read that elsewhere)
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)engage in risky, avoidable behavior that resulted in his death. Sounds like a Darwin Award candidate to me.
Sort of like those who think guns make them safer, so have guns around the house, little kid gets ahold of gun and someone dies. A deeply held belief that guns are good and okay to be owned doesn't make the dead person less dead.
stopbush
(24,396 posts)The laws of biology are NOT suspended because some dolt believes in Biblical fantasies, or interprets said fantasies in a way that is dangerous to him, not to mention his congregation, which he no doubt encouraged to follow his example.
There is a difference between respecting a person's right to believe what they will and respecting what they believe.
There's no god, so there were no "other plans for him." That's just another religious conceit that gives people the permission to act like assholes, and to foist their make-belief on others.
This guy played with stupidity, and he lost to stupidity.
It means nothing that he was "just testing his faith and acting on his deeply held beliefs." Anyone who believes that acting in such a way is an example of doing something that is to be admired and emulated is an idiot.
BTW - Jesus said, "judge not, lest you be judged," but he also said that unless you confessed him as your personal lord and savior, he was sending you to hell on (ta-da!) Judgement Day. Ergo, if you believe the Bible, one can spend their entire life not judging people and still end up being judged and condemned to suffer eternal hell fire.
Thus spake Jesus, meek and mild.
cvoogt
(949 posts)God said to himself, "this guy would do much better in the 12th century; I'm going to bring him back to life in that time period." You know, because God moves in mysterious ways and can do anything.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Don't shake the snake.
I always though "shakin' a snake" was some kind of euphemism, like chokin' the chicken.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)But I digress. Learn something new every day.
Beachwood
(106 posts)Guess he didn't believe in following any state laws either.
"He had five rattlesnakes confiscated last year by the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, where owning venomous snakes is banned."
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pastor-snake-bite-death
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)time, he said, was when a rattlesnake bit his middle finger. Eventually the finger died and broke off his hand. But Coots scoffed at the notion that he is taking the Bible too literally ...
Pentecostal Pastors Argue 'Snake Handling' Is Their Religious Right
Nov. 21, 2013
By JUJU CHANG and SPENCER WILKING
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Beachwood
(106 posts)"When you take a leap of faith, expect a fall."
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Most people do not seem particularly sympathetic to the idea, and various states passed laws against it
Kentucky Statutes 437.060
Use of reptiles in religious services
Any person who displays, handles or uses any kind of reptile in connection with any religious service or gathering shall be fined not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more than one hundred dollars ($100)
Tennesseee Code 39-17-101
Handling snakes so as to endanger life prohibited
(a) It is an offense for a person to display, exhibit, handle, or use a poisonous or dangerous snake or reptile in a manner that endangers the life or health of any person.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor
Original entry by Brad E. Kelle, Emory University
04/07/2006
... The history of snake-handling churches extends back to the early 1900s in East Tennessee. Tradition attributes the practice to George Went Hensley, a rural preacher working near Cleveland, Tennessee, around 1909. From about 1910 to 1920 snake handling was widespread in the Church of God based in Cleveland, but by the end of the 1920s the denomination had renounced the practice. From then on, it existed only in independent churches in Appalachia.
Snake handlers in Alabama and Georgia also trace their heritage to James Miller, a preacher who independently began the practice in 1912 in Sand Mountain, Alabama. Under his influence the movement spread into Berrien and Cook counties in south central Georgia by 1920. Beginning in the 1940s, several southern states, including Georgia, passed laws prohibiting snake handling in religious services. The law in Georgia developed after a six-year-old girl was bitten during a service near Adel, in Cook County. Police arrested both her father and her pastor, Warren Lipham, who later stood trial but was not convicted for the earlier death of a worshipper in 1938. In 1941 Georgia passed a law that made snake handling a felony punishable by twenty years in prison in the case of injury to another, or by the death penalty in the case of a fatality. The law was repealed in the 1960s. Today, the handling of poisonous snakes in Georgia is legal only by permit ...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Thou shalt not tempt the LORD!
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I don't see how Luke 4 contradicts this. Snake handling is described as a passive quality of those with "true faith". In fondling vipers, these clowns aren't demanding of God some standard of proof before committing themselves to him. It isn't a "temptation" or a "test".
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I'm not the one who believes the Bible is the inerrant word of a living God.
Though I would be interested to know how it is you know what is in the "original text" of Mark... seeing as we don't have an original text.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)The existing texts do not all agree, and other ancient documents indicate that several versions of "Mark," with different endings, were in circulation long ago
I'm not expert on this and so limit myself to illustrating the methods from a few examples familiar to me
How does "Mark" begin? Some ancient sources have in Mark 1:2 something like "as is written in the prophet Isaiah" while others have something like "as is in the prophets", but the "quote," that follows, seems a mixture of texts from Exodus, Malachi, and Isaiah. An applicable principle of scholarship is that the more difficult reading is preferred: that is, it seems more likely that some copyist deliberately "corrected" the text, to eliminate the embarrassing error than that, than that a copyist deliberately introduced the erroneous attribution to Isaiah -- and therefore "as is written in the prophet Isaiah" is probably closer to the original
One can also carefully compare multiple manuscripts for points of similarity and difference, and so can get some idea about sources the authors used. Applied to the gospels, for example, this method leads to the conclusion that "Mark" is the earliest of the gospels, that "Matthew" and "Luke" were both written by people who had access to copies of "Mark" and some other now-lost source ("Q" , while "John" comes from a different tradition. But the method can also be used to compare (say) different versions of "Mark"
Beyond this, one has other ancient evidence. There is, for example, the early fourth century letter of Eusebius to Marinus (who seems to have been concerned that the resurrection stories, in "Mark" and "Matthew," do not completely agree); Eusebius says most of the copies of "Mark," and that in his opinion the most accurate copies, end at "they were afraid." Then, of course, the proper scholarly question is whether Eusebius is simply making excuses to avoid the scandal Marinus sees. But various manuscripts of "Mark" are known with different endings: some end as Eusebius indicates; some have a short sequel beyond that; and some have the better-known verses 9-20; and a few even have the short sequel, followed by verses 9-20. So folk stare hard at those texts and texts that seems to mention the corresponding traditions; see (say) The Endings of the Gospel of Mark. It is my understanding that general scholarly consensus supports the notion "Mark" originally ended at verse 8: here, again, perhaps the more difficult reading is preferred -- for the diverse endings to "Mark" render the text more comfortable, while the abrupt and uncomfortable end at verse 8 found in some manuscripts since ancient times can only leave the reader wondering
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...the problem is you made an absolute claim ("The original ended at 16:8" you can't back up. The Gospel of Mark probably ended at 16:8 (as you've noted, our earliest complete gospels seem to indicate the longer ending was added later) but without the original, you can't know for sure.
Not that it matters anyway. Forgery or not, the long ending is still in everyone's book. Even the NSRV, the most "academic" translation (as I understand it), includes both.
In other words, the lack of certainty on the issue is so much as that no one has yet been willing to disinclude the long ending from the Gospel of Mark.
And, on a somewhat unrelated note, I wouldn't advise putting so much stock in the words of Eusebius.
okasha
(11,573 posts)that the Bible is the one text in all of literature that cannot be approached with conventional critical methods.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)This should be an exciting discussion.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"posters" -> "Christians"
Because, yeah, a hell of a lot of Christians believe their holy book is special and cannot be treated the same as just any other book. Plus you have that whole problem about revealed religion being subject to change at any time... what a mess!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I'm simply pointing out the futility in quoting scripture to combat such nonsense.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)and quoted your preferred bible verse at them.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)And do you think you'd convince them to give up handling snakes?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)The odds are in the snake handler's favor, though. Even without treatment, most rattler bites are nonlethal.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)At least we don't bury suicides at the cross roads with stakes in their hearts. ( I read too much romantic fiction)
Do not handle snakes!!
http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/RA/k/831/Should-Christians-Handle-Snakes.htm
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)Clearly this cleans up the gene pool a little, which weighs in favor of Darwin.
But I think if I were god, I would have a very tough time resisting the urge to have the snake to kill this dumbass.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)except in a small number of "independent churches"
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)They have a snake, which they keep in a certain chestthe cista mysticaand which at the hour of their mysteries they bring forth from its cave. They heap loaves upon the table and summon the serpent. Since the cave is open it comes out. It is a cunning beast and, knowing their foolish ways, it crawls up on the table and rolls in the loaves; this they say is the perfect sacrifice. Wherefore, as I have been told, they not only break the bread in which the snake has rolled and administer it to those present, but each one kisses the snake on the mouth, for the snake has been tamed by a spell, or has been made gentle for their fraud by some other diabolical method. And they fall down before it and call this the Eucharist, consummated by the beast rolling in the loaves. And through it, as they say, they send forth a hymn to the Father on high, thus concluding their mysteries.
Panarion 1:37[6]
Ophite teaching was, most likely, dying out in the days of Hippolytus; in the time of Epiphanius it was not absolutely extinct, but the notices in his work would lead us to think of it as but the eccentric doctrine of some stray heretic here and there, and not to have counted many adherents. In the 5th century Theodoret tells (Heresies 1:24) of having found serpent worship practised in his diocese by people whom he calls Marcionites, but whom we may believe to have been really Ophites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophites
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)can be traced "back to at least the 2nd century"
okasha
(11,573 posts)that the snake in question in this passage was poisonous, or that the congregation "handled" it to demonstrate their faith. And even your quote refers to its involvement with a "Eucharustic" ceremony as "the eccentric doctrine of some stray heretic here and there."
Apples and doorknobs.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)First there are problems with the Bible in general. If you don't like snake-handling? Then note that the Bible has Moses handling serpents; Mark 16.16-19 supports snake-handling. Some Bibles leave out the snake-handling ending to Mark; but this leads to further problems. Not all our Bibles are the same; and if parts of what were thought to be the Bible are wrong, then this casts doubts on the whole Bible.
The "shorter ending" of Mark doesn't solve much; it leaves off with the people confused; and no resurrection. No solution in sight.
It may be that not many churches went in heavily for snake-handling; but many did. More importantly, it seems likely that this particularly vivid kind of silliness, might serve as a first indication of lots of other, similar problems, even with mainline churches. Most mainstream churches once promised physical "MIRACLES"; even "all" and "whatever" we "ask" (from John 14.12-14). Yet the simplest science shows that these historical promises do "not come to pass."
To try to get around the evident failure of church's promises of giant physical miracles that did not come true, many churches in more recent times have tried to suggest that all these old promises should be taken as metaphors only; metaphors for "SPIRITUAL" things. But as it turns out, the Bible itself noted that a religion, a "Christ"ianity, that gives us only mental or spiritual things, and is not reliable in taking care of the physical material side of life, is literally, physically, fatal (James 2.14-26). It gives starting people words and sentiments, spirits ... but not physical food. And leaves them literally starving to death.
So the failure of snake-handling Christianity is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only are there problems with 1) snake handlers; but also 2) promises of physical miracles.
Finally 3) even liberal Christians, with their "spirituality," are in trouble too; even biblically.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)With its promises of "miracles" for example. Which are related to miraculous snake-handling assertions.
As it turns out, promises of "miracles" in general - like miraculous immunity from snakebite - turn out to be problematic/false.
Granted, the larger picture of problems in Christianity is too much for this present forum. (See online writings of Dr. Woodbridge Goodman for a fuller exposition.)
okasha
(11,573 posts)1. Moses does not handle snakes.
In Exodus 7 -12, Aaron's staff turns into a snake when he throws it down before Pharaoh as per Yahweh's instructions. The Egyptian priests do likewise, and Aaron's snake swallows them.
In Numbers 21:5-9, Yahweh sends a plague of poisonous snakes to punish disobedient Israelites as they are making their way along the Red Sea. He instructs Moses to make a snake of brass or bronze to hold up before the people to cure those who have been bitten. Presumably it is this same icon, now referred to as Nehushtan, that Hezekiah evicts from the Temple in 2d. Kings to comply with the "Yahweh alone" doctrine.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 04:29 PM - Edit history (1)
But in Ex. 4.4? "The LORD said to Moses, 'put out your hand and take it by the tail' - so he put out his hand and caught it."
My main point is also still valid: there's a tradition of religious regard for snakes and snake-handling, in Jewish culture; the roots of Christianity.
This becomes quite explicit in Mark 16, in the New Testament.
My major point stands.
okasha
(11,573 posts)2. "It may be that not many churches went in heavily for snake handling; but many did." Eh? Which is it? And where is your evidence? Please note that the passage referred to by W. Stupidity does not describe "snake handling"that is in any way similar to the late Mr. Coot's practice.
3.Your reading of James is bizarre. The passage in question refers to a central conflict between Paul and the Jerusalem mother church headed by James. Paul preached salvation by faith alone. James says that faith alone won't do the job. If you see a person is hungry or cold, it's not enough just to say "Bless you; have a nice day." Go get him a warm meal and a jacket. His point is that faith without works is meaningless.
There is no referece to or implication of anyone literally starving to death.
4. Tell us again about how you're a theologian.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)The overall aim and pattern of some (not all; not Warren's) examples, is for a religion to prove mastery over dangerous things in nature. Like snakes. That is likely the case with a) Moses' companion, Aaaron. And b) the Egyptian pharaohs, who were Moses' tutors. And then c) American snakehandlers.
2) Many churches in say the 19th century did not do snake-handling; but many individual churches did, in the South. Do your research please.
3) LOGIC again. Think through the LOGICAL IMPLICATIONS. See the larger pattern.
Specifically: in James 2.14-26, Paul seems to be preaching salvation by faith alone. But then James notes that if you just give kind words, sentiments, spirits, to physically cold and starving people, that isn't enough; you need to give them physical clothes, food. BECAUSE? If you don't, they will be exposed to the physical elements, and starvation. Ultimately, logically, they might even die. Logically, that is what happens from lack of food.
This is largely what theologians (and structural anthropologists of religion) do: noting the larger patterns in religion.
Gothmog
(145,176 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)of the danger of faith-based beliefs.