It's Lent. Let's debunk the author of the "Book of Revelation" John of Patmos (not the apostle).

[hrmjustin]

SleeplessinSoCal posted this in GD but asked me to repost here after I had to lock the GD one.

Please discuss.

Let's give up bunk for Lent. And there's no more harmful bunk than that in "The Book of Revelation". "Evangelicals" like to believe it was written by John the Apostle. It wasn't. It's nothing but a hate ridden testimonial of fear mongering & self destruction.




John of Patmos (also called John the Revelator, John the Divine, or John the Theologian) is the name given to the author of the Book of Revelation, the apocalyptic text forming the final chapter of the New Testament. The text of Revelation states that the author is called John and that he lives on the Greek island of Patmos, where by some, he is considered to be in exile as a result of anti-Christian persecution under the Roman emperor Domitian

Traditionally, the John who is the author of Revelation is considered to be John the Apostle, author of all the Johannine works, that is the Gospel of John, the first, second, and third epistles of John, as well as Revelation. However, in the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate, otherwise unknown, author, to whom they have given the name John of Patmos.
Book of Revelation

The author of the Book of Revelation identifies himself as "John" Traditionally, this named author is believed to be the same person as both John the apostle of Jesus and John the author of the Fourth Gospel. The early 2nd century writer, Justin Martyr, was the first to equate the author of Revelation with John the Apostle. However, some biblical scholars now contend that these were separate individuals.

John the Presbyter, an obscure figure in the early church, has also been identified with the seer of the Book of Revelation by such authors as Eusebius of Caesarea and Jerome.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

I believe this word worth spreading.

[riqster]

1. Fascinating!

[hrmjustin]

3. lol I forgot this was a different thread then my other lent threads.

I asked if you follow lent.

Yes it is an interesting read.

[riqster]

14. Nope, I see no purpose in Lent.

But different strokes for different folks, there are many mansions in His house, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. I don't read Greek, but I've been told that the Gospel of John and Revelation

are written in completely different styles, and that if you know Greek, it's pretty obvious that we're dealing with two different authors.

[okasha]

6. True.

"John the Elder/Presbyter" is believed to be the author of Revelation and the two letters of John.

Revelation is probably the most controversial book of the Bible. Martin Luther hated it, and wanted to leave it out of his translation. Modern evangelicals take it to be a prediction, which has allowed the likes of Tim LaHaye to make beaucoup $$$$ off it. What it actually is is an anti-Roman harangue delivered in highly allegorical fashion--the only way it could be written without fatal consequences to the author.

[kwassa]

5. John the Revelator

A great song, sung here by the great Son House.

[riqster]

13. Done here by Glass Harp

http://m.

Of course, the "Strings Attached" version is still their best rendition.

[arm-elim]

24. Depeche Mode - John The Revelator

[link:

|

[kwassa]

26. Thanks! A good musical critique.

[arm-elim]

27. yes

the reason why I've put it in my website http://therevelator.freeblog.site/
english is my second language, but besides that, I have the most of informations against false revelation; sadly, very few persons would do the same I am doing, and on some I gave up... so, all I can do is sit and wait self fulfilment of 666 and armageddon

[TygrBright]

7. It was also NOT a prophecy "for the ages."

It was very specifically focused on the geopolitical reality at the time of writing-- an allegorical polemic against the power structure in the Roman Empire, and the overreaching Imperialist ambitions thereof.

There are at least two, possibly three, fairly credible exigetics deconstructing the "Roman a clef" aspect of the Book, and identifying the contemporary and near-contemporary figures and events depicted therein.

It was (essentially) the contemporary equivalent of the "Left Behind" garbage: A politico-religious allegory of satire, vengeance, and propaganda.

exigetically,
Bright

[SleeplessinSoCal]

8. the religious right promote Revelation to block science and use fear as a way of life

The option to select John the Apostle goes against historians' research because those who champion it know he connects this destructive "how to" book to Jesus.

I'd like not only John and his revelation exposed and debunked, but on the same level and with the same passion as the "pro life" activists. They are also "pro destructive fear" through the last and most diabolical book in the Bible.

My suggestion - a campaign to ask the Pope to remove it from the Bible. The backlash alone would be worth the effort.

[okasha]

10. Relax.

It's just science fiction before its time: mutant critters, robots, megaweapons, extraterrestrials, and a climactic shootout in which the bad guys all perish nastily to free humanity from their tyranny.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

11. Relax? We have a planet on the line. We have a duty to fight back.

Think of it as the anti-crusades and a way to put zealots on defense. And possibly they'd have to learn to love their neighbor or at least live and let live.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. Science fiction, making of 48% of American Christians think Jesus will probably return by 2050

Easter is one of the most important religious holidays of the year for many Christians – a time to celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. According to a 2010 Pew Research Center survey, roughly half (48%) of Christians in the U.S. say they believe that Christ will definitely (27%) or probably (20%) return to earth in the next 40 years. Somewhat fewer (38%) say this definitely will not happen (10%) or probably will not happen (28%).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/03/26/us-christians-views-on-the-return-of-christ/

and that does feed into BS like "don't worry about global warming - Jesus will probably return, and He wouldn't let anything bad happen to the planet".

There is apocalyptic stuff in the Old Testament too - Daniel in particular - but Revelation is the chief source of this delusion. There is a hypothesis that the author was literally high when writing it - ergot poisoning.

[okasha]

16. Revelation is not the source

for the "Jesus is coming/Rapture" belief. It comes from the misinterpretation of a brief passage in Paul by a 19th century preacher. It is being pushed now by media evangelists on the political right. If you want to fight someone, there's your target. You can do that by supporting policies and organizations that can restore a dense of stability and security for the fast-fading middle class and those already in poverty. Make people secure and reasonably comfortable, and the end of the world won't look so appealing. That will take a lot more work than "debunking John," though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. 'brief passage' v. 'nearly all of a book of the Bible'

That's the point - Revelation is what has made this belief so widespread. It goes on about it at length, and so many people think it can't just be a question of 'misinterpretation' of one small bit.

[okasha]

19. The Rapture does not appear

in Revelation at all. The Bible has existed in its present form for approximately 1600 years. It wasn't until the 19th century that the "Rapture" was derived from that "brief passage."

If you want to put a stop to the "end times" fascination, make the present time more worth living in. It's that simple. (And that difficult.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. You are the only one to mention the 'rapture' in the thread

SleeplessinSoCal was talking about the anti-science position that many use Revelation to encourage. You said it's just sci-fi. I pointed out 48% or US Christians expect Jesus to return by 2050, not "they expect the rapture".

"The Bible has existed in its present form for approximately 1600 years" - and predictions of the Second Coming have existed for about as long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ . I see even the relatively level-headed John Wesley predicted a Second Coming in 1836, based on Revelation.

[okasha]

21. My point was and is

that most millenialism today--right now--is predicated on the idea that the righteous will shortly be Hoovered up to heaven "to meet the Lord in the air." Said righteous folk thus have no immediate personal stake in the future of the planet. Hence the impetus to ignore the effects of climate change and all the horrors that are likely to go with it. Make lives better now for the people drawn to this belief, and they will be less llikely to yearn to be rescued and more likely to look for solutions to problems that threaten the future.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

9. bumper sticker - Burn the Book of Revelation for Lent n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Wait, are you telling me there's no final boss, and I can't get the powerup and win the game?

This sucks.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Great. Now lets let go of the myths in the rest of the gosples too. nt.

[Warpy]

22. Thank you. Of all the bad things in that book, this is by far the worst

and it's obvious why it was included, to strike fear into the hearts of ordinary people to cement the power of the early church as it began to take over many of the administrative functions of the nearly defunct Roman Empire.

It was actually a screed about the ultimate destruction of Rome, not the whole world. It also contains the only physical description of Jesus, "feet of burned bronze, hair like that of a lamb," thin and many years after the fact but more than anybody else gave.

[uriel1972]

23. Dangerous ground...

If we start pulling on a thread, the whole thing might unravel.

[arm-elim]

25. The Antichrist Wrote The Revelation

Lardner said in vol. 4 of his commentary on page 175: "Cyrillus and the Church of Jerusalem did not acknowledge the book of Revelation in their period. Apart from this, the name of this book does not even occur in the list of Canonical books which he wrote."
On page 323 of the same volume Lardner further said: "Revelation was not the part of Syrian version."

Eusebius makes the following statement in chapter 25 (Vol. 7) of his history: "Dionysius says that some ancient writers excluded the book of Revelation from the Holy Scriptures and have completely refuted it. He said that this book is meaningless and a great example of ignorance. Any association of this book with John or with a righteous man or with any Christian is wrong. In fact, a heretic Cerinthus attributed this book to John. I wish I had the powers of excluding it from Holy Scriptures."

The Catholic Herald (1844) contains the following statement on page 206 of Volume 7: "Rose has written on page 161 of his book that many Protestant scholars consider the book of Revelation nonbelievable. Professor Ewald has produced powerful arguments to prove that the gospel of John and Epistles of John and the Revelations of John cannot be the writings of the same person."

http://therevelator.freeblog.site/
Prologue 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
VS.
John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

Have you ever asked why the author of Revelation identifies himself as "John" several times, but the author of the Gospel of John never identifies himself directly, hiding behind the phrase "beloved disciple" (used six times)?