Stop twisting the Bible: There is no message against same-sex marriage

[DonViejo]

Moses and Paul are being misinterpreted: They were against gang rape and pederasty, not loving relationships

ADAM HAMILTON

Excerpted from "Making Sense of the Bible"

I’d like to begin our conversation about homosexuality and the Bible by inviting you to think with me about what precisely Moses had in mind when he commanded that a man who “lies with a man as with a woman” must be put to death.

There is no record in the Torah of two men seeking to share their lives together as companions and lovers. There are two instances in the Torah of men lying with men as with a woman. It seems likely to me that when Moses commands the death penalty for a man lying with a man that he was addressing these practices that are described in two separate passages in the Torah. Let’s consider each of these two passages.

In Genesis 19, we read the story of Sodom, from which the terms “sodomy” and “sodomite” are drawn. In this story, two angels (in both Hebrew and Greek the word “angel” means “messenger”) came from God, and visited the town of Sodom. Lot, Abraham’s nephew, invited the men to lodge with him for the night. Here’s what Genesis says: “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, ‘Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.’ Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, ‘No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof ’ ” (Genesis 19:4–8, niv).

Once again we see the strange patriarchal world in which the Bible was shaped, as Lot offers his two daughters to be raped by the men of Sodom rather than giving up the strangers he’s just met (a story virtually identical to the one that occurs in Judges 19 with the Levite’s concubine and the men of Gibeah).

more
http://www.salon.com/2014/04/12/stop_twisting_the_bible_there_is_no_message_against_same_sex_marriage/

[skepticscott]

1. Um...dupe

Do read down the list just a bit before you post an article.

[DonViejo]

2. Do know that I perform a Google site search

on every article before I post it. Thanks for your concern though.

[skepticscott]

3. It would be more effective to just look at the list

of recent post titles, don't you think? If you had, you would have seen this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218123111

[DonViejo]

4. Whatever. Thanks again for your concern though...

I hope you'll take to following EVERY DU'er and correcting them when they fail to live up to your obviously very high standards!

[msongs]

11. note the endless posts about obama/dems/repubs topics. are they all dupes too lol nt

[Warpy]

6. Some of us are late risers and appreciate reposts.

Deal.

[Warpy]

5. There is nothing against abortion, either.

That doesn't stop Cafeteria Christians into twisting some Bronze Age priestly ramblings badly translated into poetic English into their biggest holy war against women.

If abortion and gay marriage had been such big no-nos, you'd think they'd have been on Moses's tablets.

[enki23]

7. Why do people think they have to somehow prove the bible isn't against their thing?

The bible is against almost all the things. The bible most certainly *does* contain unambiguous prohibitions of male homosexual sex. The twisting people go through to pretend it doesn't is, frankly, kinda sad. You don't need to do that. Save yourself the mental gymnastics and uncertainty and fucking moral/ethical knot unraveling that is inevitable if you try to take the bible seriously. The bible is against mixed fiber fabrics, for fuck's sake. The bible contains exhortations from its god to commit fucking genocide, to take female sex slaves, how to properly sell your daughters as *outright* sex slaves, even apart from the way it treats women who attained that lofty rank of not-officially-a-slave "wife". The bible is full of absolute shit. That should be enough to tell anyone that the bible is worth precisely nothing as guide to proper human behavior. Or anything else, for that matter.

[DonViejo]

8. So, are you opposed to theological analysis of all

ancient documents or, just the ancient document known as the Bible?

[enki23]

9. "Opposed to theological analysis..." seriously?

Presuming, for a moment, that "theological analysis" isn't actually an oxymoron.... The only thing it can mean is "interpreting some bit of writing by making ad hoc arguments to reconcile it to some shit we, for any variety of reasons, very much want to believe."

So long as we can leave it to nerds to play in their basement, the theological analyzers can play dungeon master all they like. Till that day comes, and stays for good, then, yeah. I guess I'm "opposed to it." Because "it" is nothing more, or less, than a thick layer of bullshit which can do nothing whatsoever other than provide cover for whatever it is they wanted to think in the first place. And that works just as well for the bad guys as for the good guys. A problem particular to the bible (though by no means exclusive to it) is that the game is already rigged in favor of the bad guys. If you give the bible authority over anything at all, the bad guys get to start with a massive advantage in materiel.

Of course, I could just as well say regarding the "theological analysis of other ancient documents" bit... what in holy hell do you imagine that silly comment actually has to do with anything whatsoever on this topic? Or... how about "nope. I'm entirely in favor of applying theological analysis to ancient Sumerian tax documents."

[DonViejo]

10. Just the response I expected...

long winded, evasive and meaningless. Thanks for sharing!

[enki23]

17. Is that a "theological analysis?"

Last edited Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Otherwise known as "There doesn't exist an unambiguously satisfactory answer to this, so I'll just declare it to be what I want it to be?"
In this case, you tried to cover its vapidness in snark. I suppose that works for you sometimes. What I need to know is whether you are either unable or unwilling to actually engage with anything I've written?

So far, I have from you:

1. A post that purported to respond to a legitimate criticism of this silliness with a poorly-disguised version of "do you only hate the bible?" The only possible purpose for that would be to spin yourself into post-hoc victimhood.

2. A useless post that could essentially be paraphrased as "YOUR DUMB!!!!!1"

[mr blur]

13. There's no point in looking into the bullshit,

just to see what the bull ate.

[Leontius]

14. Well said and intellectually lame at the same time.

Bravo on the double.

[DonViejo]

15. Sorry, disagree...

as long as organized religion plays such an overwhelmingly powerful role in society, I believe it important to expose the fallacies and misinterpretations being taught. WHen a teaching is proven false, believers begin to question.

Off the top of my head, one important story, exposed years ago, was the alleged rationale for the destruction of Sodom, HOMOSEXUALS! I derived a great deal of pleasure, just by chance, watching Pat Robertson admit his (and others) preaching about the destruction was wrong. I hope to see the day when they have to back down from the story based on scientific evidence for the cause of the destruction.

That's just one example, there are many more, e.g., slavery and the treatment and second class status given to women to name only two more.

[enki23]

18. Can you theologically analyze the Odyssey too? I don't want to anger Poseidon by getting it wrong

[cbayer]

19. There most certainly is.

Ask anyone who raises cows.

[LostOne4Ever]

21. O.o

Last edited Sun Apr 13, 2014, 05:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Im getting confused by the similarity between the OP's and your avatars. If not for your sailboat I would be hopelessly lost!

Obviously the solution here is to petition skinner for more Wallace and Gromit avatars!

[cbayer]

22. Tell me about it!

I thought I was the only one using it until DonViejo started posting in this group.

The first time I saw a post of his, I though I must have gone into a fugue state, because I had no recollection of typing the post in question.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. Glad I have a custom avatar

P-Chan from Ranma 1/2 works great with my forum id.

I feel safe that I won't ever run into anyone else using the same avatar

BTW: Glad to see you back from your break!

[cbayer]

24. P-Chan from Ranma ½?

You have no idea how little I know about that. But I like it.

I am still on my road trip, but am taking the daily siesta time and have internet connection. It comes and goes.

[LostOne4Ever]

25. I was wondering where you went for a bit

My avatar is from a japanese comic/cartoon (manga/anime).

Its mainly a romantic comedy about a group of young martial artists who while traveling in china get cursed. Each one has a different curse that gets activated when they get splashed with cold water/and revert back with warm water.

One of them is known for having absolutely no sense of direction and he turns into a little black baby piglet. He ends up accidently getting adopted by the girl he has a crush on and renamed P-Chan. He spends the rest of the show trying to keep her from finding out.

I was a huge fan of the show when I was younger and since it's an older show, and somewhat obscure by now, I expect only big anime fans will get the reference to my id and my avatar.

Regardless, DU needs more Wallace and Gromit avatars /nods

[cbayer]

26. I have seen only a few japanese animes but have like what I have seen.

This story sounds wonderful. As usual it is full of parable and allegory.

My favorite has been Spirited Away.

But it is Wallace and Gromit (note spelling, I am very sensitive about this) that captured my heart.

[LostOne4Ever]

28. I love all types of animation

And if I had any skill I would have been a comic artist/animator.

I loved Spirited Away and just about all Miyazaki/Studio Ghibli movies. My Top two favorites are Princess Mononoke and Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind.

Anyways corrected my spelling (im gonna blame my dyslexia rather than admit to being lazy )

[Starboard Tack]

20. "The bible is against almost all the things"?!?! What an absurdly simplistic statement

That is on a par with saying a library is against almost all things because it has books you do not like. An anthology of writings collected over several centuries, translated and edited over and over, does not have a "position". It is a bunch of stories, some that make little sense, some that have some historical foundation, but mostly a collection of myth and allegory. Only the most simple minded take any of the stories literally. This does not detract from their appeal to man, any less than the writings of Homer, Shakespeare or J.K. Rowling.

[SevenSixtyTwo]

27. I like this post!

It puts the Bible into a perspective I never would have found the words to do but, I agree with wholeheartedly.

[enki23]

31. So you dug up irony's corpse, stuck a pencil in its ear, and declared victory.

Last edited Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:25 PM - Edit history (8)

Way to take the obviously-not-meant-to-be-taken-literallly-part literally. That would have been great on its own. What makes it a work of art, though, is your misguided follow-up lecture on not taking things literally.

[Starboard Tack]

33. Boy oh boy! 15 edits so far

Looks like your keyboard's running away with your brain. Didn't mean to put you in such a tiswas

[enki23]

47. Do you actually do the substance thing? Or are you just playing the troll for Jesus?

You have something better than "The genius of the Bible is that you need to take the non-literal parts of the bible non-literally, duh?" Or is that actually it?

[Starboard Tack]

48. Yup, that would be me, "troll for Jesus" LOL

[Goblinmonger]

34. "only the most simple minded take any if the stories literally"

If I would have said that, you and others would have jumped in to say I was being rude. I'm sure they will be here to reprimand you soon. Your wife should be one to join in.

[Starboard Tack]

35. I think you are wrong

Only you and your anti-theist buddies seem to take the bible literally, around here. Nobody in their right mind thinks the earth was made in 7 days, or that Noah built an ark for 2 of every animal. Do you honestly think the Pope takes the Bible literally? No, only you and CH and SS and Trotsky and maybe Pat Robertson. Have you no imagination at all? High school english teacher? Really? Such irony.

[Goblinmonger]

36. So anyone who believes Jesus is the son of god

Is simple minded? Because that is nowhere else than in the Bible. I could go on if you wish. I kind of hope you don't backpedal on this one. This is a bookmark for the ages. Even better, IMHO, than your wife's dumbasses comment.

And just so you know, depending on whether you read chapter 6 or 7 of genisis, he was to take 2 or 7 (clean) animals.

I am fully aware of the Bible being stories. One must take good portions of it literally in order to be a Christian. Or do people who believe Christ rose from the dead also fall into your category of simple minded? Justin might not like that classification.

[Starboard Tack]

37. Don't cherry pick with me.

I didn't say everything taken literally in the bible is only for the simple minded, but you knew that. I doubt many Christians belief that Jesus was literally the son of God, in the normal sense of the word, or that Mary was a virgin, but that is irrelevant and harmless. Who cares if folk think Jesus walked on waterWhy does it bother you so fucking much? What drives your hatred for all things religious? That's the question you should be addressing. Quit being so concerned about the personal beliefs of others and start wondering where your anger comes from. Quit buying into all the negative hate filled propaganda. You're better than that.

[Goblinmonger]

39. How am I possibly cherrypicking?

Perhaps you mean building a strawman? Which I'm also not doing, btw. Here's what you said:

Only the most simple minded take ANY of the stories literally. (emphasis mine)

You didn't say "some." Or "most." Or "old testament." You said "any." Words have meaning. And my whole point, unlike the straw man you built that I do take the Bible literally (see how you use that one?), is that if I or anyone of the other atheists in here that you have a hard on for painting as part of some evil cabal had said that exact same thing, you and others would be here telling us how horribly bigoted we are. Yet, here we are and I am the only one challenging you on your statements.

But I think I figured you out. You have been so isolated and have such a small picture of what Christianity is in the world, that you actually believe that very few people believe in a virgin birth. You're like my daughter in high school. She was in orchestra, mostly AP and college classes, she attended a UU fellowship and, as a result, felt that all kids her age were liberal progressives and only until she got to college (ironically, the really liberal University of Wisconsin) did she realize that she is a pretty small percentage of the population. And before you get all up on your high horse, perhaps you want to take issue with the Pew survey which found that 73% of US adults believe that Mary was a virgin. Perhaps in your isolated world, most Christians don't believe that, but out here in the real world, pretty much a huge majority of them do.

But go ahead, paint me as some evil atheist for pointing out the horrible thing you said about someone who believe any story in the bible literally. Because, apparently, what you said is all on me.

[Starboard Tack]

41. It doesn't matter if 70% of Americans think Mary was a virgin

I don't care what they believe. I care about living in harmony with those who believe differently and confronting hateful people, especially when they pretend to represent me. I have no issue with atheism, just with anti-theists and extremists in general. I take people on an individual basis and don't judge them based on their spiritual beliefs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. You don't think calling most American Christians 'simple minded' is judging them?

Or the Pope, or anyone else who believes Jesus was resurrected?

[Starboard Tack]

49. I'm not calling most Americans simple minded Muriel

I'm saying anyone who takes everything, note EVERYTHING, in the bible literally is simple minded. Do you disagree?
There may be some who literally believe in the resurrection or the virgin birth, but these are harmless beliefs and, as you well know, subject to interpretation.
I have no issue with people who want to believe such things. I do take issue with those who troll the bible for ammunition to spread discord and hatred, be they so-called christians, or anti-theists. They are all mean spirited individuals ho need to get a fucking life. And when they claim to represent the "atheist" pov, it pisses me off.

[Goblinmonger]

50. Not even close to what you said

and makes no sense with your original wording. People are simple minded if they take ANY of the stories literally. That's what you said. Feel free to admit you were wrong but stop trying to put lipstick on your pig.

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. The difference between 'any story' and 'everything' is huge

Which one are you inviting me to disagree with?

I suggest that you put a note in the post in which you said "only the most simple minded take any of the stories literally", saying that you didn't mean that after all, or that you've now changed your mind.

[Goblinmonger]

43. I'm not letting you off that easily.

You said;

Only the most simple minded take ANY of the stories literally. (emphasis mine)

Why do you get off saying that? Why is it OK for you to say that when I know that if I, cleanhippie, trotsky, skepticscott, Heddi (got it right this time, dear, ), or any other "evil atheist" said that, you and others would be all over us tut-tutting and clucking about tone and bigotry. Yet you get to make statements like that and the only people calling you out on it are the atheists.

And I also call bullshit on:

I take people on an individual basis

I have made it clear in several threads that I do not self-describe as an anti-theist, but you continue to go down that path. Respect me the same way you claim to respect others. I can, and do, live in harmony with many who believe differently. Of my graduating high school seminary class, I am still close friends with a Dominican priest and a diocesan priest as well as several other very religious Catholics and I have yet to break in and eat their young.

[Starboard Tack]

51. Well, I applaud you for your acceptance IRL of your friends who are religious.

Your support, however, of those DU members you mentioned, does not give me that impression. Why do you support the hateful drivel they post?
You know very well that they insult and attack believers constantly, consider tolerance of believers to be some kind of support for fundie extremists, while they themselves are outspoken anti-theists who revel in mockery and derision of all who defend the rights of all to believe as they wish.
BTW, being simple minded is not an insult, especially when it comes to religion. Not everyone cares about being scientifically informed about everything in life. Most of us take some things at face value, especially when it supports what we want to believe. I'm more concerned about what I'm being sold as safe or healthy in the marketplace than whether Jesus walked on water, or whether a catholic literally thinks he's drinking Christ's blood at communion.
I ask you again, why do you care about such things? And why do you support the anti-theists?

[Goblinmonger]

54. So now "simple minded" isn't a bad thing

I can't wait to see your next excuse. Maybe this will go on of enough so some theist comes in to call you on you crap but I'm sure that will never happen because only some if us get that reaction.

And I'm not going to go into your diversion tactic. Why do you get away with dating those things? And why haven't toy just admitted it was a shitty thing to say?

[Starboard Tack]

55. I have no idea what you're talking about, but have one on me

[mr blur]

40. You know, when the hole he's in gets deeper and deeper,

the wise man stops digging.

But carry on, I would have thought some other Christian would be along to help you out soon.

[Goblinmonger]

44. Well, rather than back pedaling (which I thought would happen)

he went for straight out ignoring that he even said something like that. Too bad this is a public forum and all can see it every time I bring it up when he gets all up on his high horse about the statements of others. For a couple in which one thinks creationists are dumbasses and the other thinks people who believe any story in the bible literally is simple minded, you wouldn't think they would be so loudly claiming they accept everyone at face value.

[cleanhippie]

56. Hypocrisy runs in the family.

Wow. Just wow.

[el_bryanto]

62. You doubt that many Christians believe the Bible?

How many Christians do you know?

I certainly believe Jesus was the Son of God, for example. I believe Mary was a virgin - i think many Christians do. If I didn't believe that why would I be a Christian?

Bryant

[Starboard Tack]

63. That is not what I said.

I doubt many Christians take all the stories of the bible literally. I am sure that many Christians believe in isolated facts and details such as the virgin birth, but I doubt it is a majority. I think most see the stories as allegory, especially the stories of the OT.
I have encountered people who believe the world is less than 6,000 years old and that Noah actually saved all the animals and birds and God created the universe in a week. Do you believe literally in those stories?
I also know that many Christians, especially Catholics believe in miracles, such as the feeding of the five thousand. I always took it as allegory and the message was about sharing. I loved that story, as I loved the story of the good Samaritan. Whether they are true or not is irrelevant and whether you believe them or not is irrelevant. I respect your beliefs and I respect those who take every word literally, even though I consider them simple minded in that respect. I mean no insult by that either. Some people don't like to complicate their lives too much by challenging themselves to analyze and scrutinize things they have always taken for granted. And that is OK.

I take offense when I see believers attacked by vicious anti-theists, purely for their religious beliefs.

When you say "I believe Jesus was the son of God", i can relate to that. If there is a god creator, then we are all the children of God. That's what I believed when I identified as a christian and what I was taught. The birth of Christ story was always allegory to me. It was about being special. It was about hope and celebration. Whether Gabriel was sent as a messenger and Mary virginity were real was of no importance to me. They were just wrapping for those who yearn for the wonder and rapture of it all. Not important to the essential message. Religious bling, if you will. But I respect the rights of anyone who cares to take it all literally.

[Goblinmonger]

64. But that's not what you said

You said only the simple minded take any of the stories in the Bible literally. Then you tried to say it wasn't an insult to say someone was simple minded.

I realize it is asking way too much of you to admit that if I had said what you had said many people in here would have had a cow. But is it really that hard for you to say, "wow, that was a shitty thing to say. Thanks for pointing that out"?

[Starboard Tack]

65. I don't think it was a shitty thing to say

You see, I'm not a shitty person and my posts don't come from a shitty point of view. I think most people understand where I'm coming from. If you had said it, or any of your little group of anti-theist buddies, it might have been taken differently.
You seem pissed that the only outrage about my statement is coming from the anti-theists. That should tell you something about how you behave around here. I get along fine with believers, as does my wife and many other non believers who don't subscribe to the SS/CH/HA/GM/Heddi/Trotsky brand of angry atheism. Your reaction is infantile, as was your over reaction to s4p's not calling you a nazi. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[Goblinmonger]

66. I'm not pissed about it at all.

First of all, I know, contrary to your opinion, that those are good people and, if you haven't noticed the irony here, we are actually the ones standing up for those that do take parts of the bible literally. We are also standing up to some horrible statements about gay marriage you have made that are damn near on par with what got humblebum banned. I'm very happy to be in their company.

I also know that those people that nanny this group really don't care about attitude. They have as much attitude as the people that you and they don't like. They just don't like that it is against them. They are just as tribal as you claim we are. I knew no believer would come in here and tell you that you said a shitty thing. It is what I have come to expect.

[skepticscott]

68. Except you're not capable of it

You and the other religionistas claimed you needed Interfaith to have "civilized conversations" about religion, and we all know how that turned out. If not for one person posting vapid one-liners, there'd be nothing going on there at all, and as it stands, the people there can't generate a single thread of any intellectual depth. To achieve the miracle of going past 10 posts, they have to start bashing others, because they have absolutely no meaningful thoughts to exchange with each other about religion or much of anything else.

[Goblinmonger]

69. Do you believe the vitriol you post?

And if you don't think that someone drowning at a baptism is irony, it is you that needs to learn the understanding of words.

I wouldn't want you to climb a flight of stairs with me. You make it seem like that is a slam to me.

[Heddi]

70. I DON'T CLIMIB STAIRS WITH YOU!!111!

that's one hell of an insult. Seriously.

Your mother wears army boots has NOTHING on "I wouldn't climb a flight of stairs with you." The first one is silly. The second one...well that's just nasty

[Heddi]

71. Oh yeah?! Well I wouldn't GIVE YOU A CLEAN DISH TOWEL TO DRY YOUR HANDS ON

even if you were standing in my kitchen dripping water on the floor.

HOWS THAT FOR INSULTING, BUB?!??!?!?!?

Oh...not very stinging, eh?

How about:

IF YOU ASKED ME THE TIME, I WOULD TELL YOU THE THE TIME AS IT WAS 3 MINUTES AGO! Hmph! Try catching the bus with that one, bugsy!!!

hmmm...still doesn't carry much 'oomph'

wait...hold on...

IF I KNEW THE BRAKE CALIPERS WERE GOING OUT ON YOUR RIGHT FRONT WHEEL, THEREFORE CAUSING THE SOMETHING OR OTHER TO BURN AND FAIL, I WOULDN'T TELL YOU UNTIL YOU SMELLED A DEATHLY BURNING PLASTIC SMELL AND HEARD A HORRIBLE GRINDING SOUND THAT COINCIDED WITH A VICIOUS JERK WHEN YOU TURNED A CORNER!11!!1!!


BOOYAH!!!! Take that one, write it in a letter AND SEND IT TO YOUR MAMA!!!!1!!!

[Heddi]

74. Oh! Looks like someone got a post hidden for making nasty comments

I'll go slither back in my basement now.

I lie. I hate my basement. It's small and there's nothing fun down there. Just dust and boxes of shit I don't want to unpack but can't get rid of.

and I don't slither. My boobs are too big to allow for chafe-free slithering across hardwoods. Maybe if I put down some wood oil.....

[Heddi]

75. OH yeah? OH YEAHHAHHAHAHAH

I wouldn't swab your decks with my mizenmast if you were the last swashbuckling poopdecker in the entire fleet of gobblin knobbers.

PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT, ANTI-ANTI-ANTI-THEIST!1!!1!

[Leontius]

76. No meds tonight ?

[Heddi]

77. Why, you looking?

[Leontius]

78. nah just poking ya

I actually enjoyed this it gave me a laugh. Have a goodnight

[Heddi]

79. Cause if you are....

just sayin'

[Leontius]

81. Early morning ya know

[Heddi]

82. Early morning? Where the hell are you? Space?

IT's approximately dark:thirty, I can't see the clock and don't feel like looking up to the right hand corner of my screen.....

[Leontius]

84. Work comes early for me

I hate the 2:30 am starts.

[Heddi]

86. Yikes. And I thought working 7p-7a sucked hind-end

going in at 2:30 is like...torture. When do you sleep for that? "oh look, it's 1am, time for dinner...." Oh look, it's 11am, time for beer? Oh wait...

[Leontius]

87. Usually it's 6:30 starts but recently the boss has her finger on the panic button constantly

trucks gotta roll on time so we're all pulling at least two 12s a week.

[Heddi]

88. Well be safe in whatever it is you do

My your alarm clock go off exactly when you need it to and may you not wake up 3 minutes before the damnable thing is set to ring

[Heddi]

80. I wouldn't give you pills

even if you had a really bad rash and I had a 25mg benadryl in my pocket and knew that said pill could make your rash more tolerable and allow you to sleep (because of the anti-cholenergic effects).

Hmph!!

[Leontius]

83. Now that just make me sad.

[Heddi]

85. Okay. I'd give you half a tab

then you'd get itch relief but without the added sleep effect. So you'd feel better...ish.

[Heddi]

73. My basement? I don't really hang out in my basement

If you said I slithered out of my back garden, or I slithered out of my third-floor attic-turned-to-guest room, or I slithered out of one of the many bars down the street, that would be at least factually correct. I know that being factually correct isn't a "thing" you're into (remember comparing gay marriage with marrying a bicycle or a hamster? You did it earlier today. Here, let me remind you ).

Basement, though? Really? That's the best you can do??? That would be like me making a joke about you and a boat. It's hackneyed. It's trite. It's overused. I mean, really? basement? What now...an implication that I live with my parents (I don't), or that I can't use Q-tips properly (I can)?

Then again, you think telling someone that you wouldn't walk up stairs with them (?) is an insult. Oooo. You won't walk up the stairs with someone. Yowch. That stings!

[Starboard Tack]

53. Funny, I don't see anyone reprimanding me except you and Mr Blur

I guess I proved my point. Only fundies debate the bible on a literal level. And the only fundies around here are your anti-theist buddies. And GM, show a little class and keep my family out of our discussions. I know there are others here who love to do that, but they are bottom feeders, who have no credibility except amongst themselves. I still regard you with a certain amount of respect, but you have started to fall in with the wolf pack, of late. It doesn't suit you.

[cleanhippie]

57. I don't think GM gives a rats-ass about how much you respect him.

And "show a little class?" Really? Coming from YOU?

[Starboard Tack]

58. Why would you?

Firstly, it would involve thinking on your part , then finding a dictionary and finally finding someone with the patience to explain the concept of respect to you . I'm sure he appreciates you speaking for him though.

[cleanhippie]

61. .

On edit: you're simply not worth the risk of a hide.

[LostOne4Ever]

12. Linking my reply from the other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123190

[DonViejo]

16. Excellent comment!

[longship]

29. Alas. The Bible in the hands of ideologues becomes a ventriloquist dummy.

As it sits on their lap, it says everything they believe. And when the flock pays attention to the (so-called) good book, they do not realize the pastor's lips are still moving.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Ain't that the truth

Some use it to spread divisive ideology, intolerance and disdain for those whose beliefs differ. Yet some, hopefully most, use it carefully to help us deal with life on a daily basis and live in harmony with our neighbors. That's how I experienced it when I attended church as a teenager. I never heard the fundie drums until I went to the US.

[intaglio]

30. As I observed before the entire argument is cherry picking

selective translation and, I now add, special pleading

[MellowDem]

32. Ya know, he's right...

The Bible orders believers to kill homosexuals, but it doesn't say anything about them getting married....

This sort of intellectual dishonesty cannot be respected.

[struggle4progress]

38. Ezekiel 16:

... Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy ...

[AtheistCrusader]

45. More spackle and paint.

For all the frantic attempts to patch it up, the source documentation for the abrahamic religions still looks like a giant pile of misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted horseshit.

[Humanist_Activist]

46. There is only one thing about the Bible I can think of that's consistent is its vagueness...

about, well, damn near everything you can think of, not to mention the things we haven't thought of, or the various writers of the books of the Bible certainly didn't think of.

Its all interpretation, personal biases, etc. There is no objective truth to be found, and frankly the attempts to validate any points using the Bible is futile because of what I said above.

[deathrind]

52. The facts is...

The human race has demmed numerous parts of the bible aka "the word of god" as being wrong. We do not stone children for being disrespectful, we do not stone people to death for planting crops of differering seed next to each other or for wearing a fabric made of differing threads so take that as evidence that we as a species have decided to supersede the word of god. Now that opinion is going vary amongst individules which clearly exemplifies the amount of cherry picking done by our species. It has always been this way and will be until we evolve on this issue...take comfort in the idea that we are evolving...it was just a few hundred years ago that we were burning people at the stake for being witches.

[WovenGems]

72. Even if

We are a secular society. We don't base our civil rights on an ancient document. If those opposed to same sex marriage don't come up with an argument outside of theology they are going to have hard time in court.

[JEFF9K]

89. Lying about the Bible seems to be a common thread ....

... among Republicans who call themselves Christians.