A simple question-

[digonswine]

If you do, why do you believe that Jesus is/was divine?

I would like believers to just put it out there. Please do not ask for definitions--we all know what it means.

And, no--you do not need to justify your beliefs to me or anyone else----but I actually want to know on what your belief is based and will not reply with ridicule.

[zeemike]

1. Well I will take a stab at it

We are all divine....how's that for an answer?
And this is based on the idea that God is everything and our mind is part of the universal consciousness....so we are divine just as a cell in the human body is human.
And Jesus alluded to this in John 10

[33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
[34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[digonswine]

2. Thanks for taking that stab-

it is a cool idea-

[digonswine]

3. Not to pick nits-

does that mean that Jesus is divine in the same way we all are? I was wondering about Jesus' divinity specifically. Thanks--

[zeemike]

5. Yes it does

But not all of us are as conscious of it as he was.
And that is what he tried to do...to raise our consciousness ....not to get us to worship him or any other god.
In the eastern mysticism achieving god consciousness was the spiritual goal....and still is in many disciplines.

[rug]

4. Interesting you ask.

This is the Gospel read at Mass today.

Mark 9:2-10

Jesus took Peter, James, and John
and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves.
And he was transfigured before them,
and his clothes became dazzling white,
such as no fuller on earth could bleach them.
Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses,
and they were conversing with Jesus.
Then Peter said to Jesus in reply,
"Rabbi, it is good that we are here!
Let us make three tents:
one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
He hardly knew what to say, they were so terrified.
Then a cloud came, casting a shadow over them;
from the cloud came a voice,
"This is my beloved Son. Listen to him."
Suddenly, looking around, they no longer saw anyone
but Jesus alone with them.

As they were coming down from the mountain,
he charged them not to relate what they had seen to anyone,
except when the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
So they kept the matter to themselves,
questioning what rising from the dead meant.

I choose to believe this, for a host of reasons.

To paraphrase, extraordinary claims require extraordinary faith. This is not to say extraordinary people have faith. Rather it is the faith that is extraordinary, different from the faith that the sun will raise tomorrow or that an apple, dropped, will always hit the ground.

[laconicsax]

6. You know, a dropped apple never physically contacts the ground.

It will fall, but hit the ground it will not.

[rug]

7. You failed to make contact with the point.

But feel free to derail, distract and disrupt without me.

[laconicsax]

8. Are pointless asides no longer acceptable to you?

It is true though. No part of the apple will physically touch the ground.

[MineralMan]

10. Circular logic.

Self-referential proof-texting. No thanks.

[rug]

11. There's nothing circular about it.

You either accept it or you don't.

[digonswine]

12. I'm not too up on all that stuff-I admit-

do you mean to say that, because one could consider the claim being made to be so extraordinary, and because making this claim, and believing it would require a great amount of faith, that it is believable due to the obvious faith of those claiming to have witnessed it? I may have this wrong, I grant you!

[rug]

15. I haven't thought of it in exactly that way but you may be on to something.

While the beliefs, actions and sacrifices of first century Christians are not, in and of themselves, reasons for anyone else to believe, they are mighty things to consider. Their examples can certainly support others in belief. In the end though, each person has to come into his or her own acceptance or rejection of belief. You can argue yourself into disbelief but you cannot argue yourself into belief. It is at that point where extraordinary faith comes in. If you do find yourself at that point, it's comforting tp knpw others have as well.

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians:

13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.
14And if Christ has not been raised, then empty [too] is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.
15Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
18Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

There you have it. There is no measure, observation or logic that can carry you forward. That can only keep you back and leave you shaking your head in literal disbelief.

If you do want to accept it, faith, extraordinary faith, is the only thing that will allow you.

[digonswine]

16. I am definitely in the camp of-

shaking my head in literal disbelief. I am quite at peace with my atheism. I tried a long time ago to accept it, but could not--I feel it was no choice of my own. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I am truly interested in people and how they think and like to know how people come to think the way they do--about many things. It might help me clarify my own thinking.

[GliderGuider]

9. Yes and no

Yes, he was divine. Jesus (or the idea of him if he didn't actually exist) is a manifestation of a monadic sacred universe, the same as you and me. In fact IMO he is identical to you and me, and as such indistinguishable from, and as sacred as, the rocks and trees and kangaroos.

No, he was not divine. If by "divine" you mean something like, "He was different from you and me" or, "He's God and I'm not." I reject the whole notion of a special class of entity that is "divine" as distinct from the rest of the reality which is not. Either all is sacred or all is profane. Or perhaps even better, "All is sacred and all is profane, including Jesus."

The concept of a partitioned repository for divinity is just a projection arising from our fear-inducing sense of being separate from the universe - a feeling of separation that denies us the possibility of accepting our rightful co-membership in it.

Jesus is welcome to share in the same divinity as everything else.

[digonswine]

13. So, I guess that would be "no"-

regarding, at least what I perceive to be, the generally accepted concept of divinity.

I guess I do not understand the significance of Jesus if everything is sacred(or profane).

[GliderGuider]

14. If everything is sacred, then Jesus is a great teacher as well as divine...

... while the rest of us are just divine.

I definitely don't share the Christian view of his divinity, but there are many ways to be divine.