If It Weren't for Jesus, I Might be Pro-Death Too

[cbayer]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shane-claiborne/jesus-death-penalty_b_5312100.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics

Shane Claiborne
Activist and bestselling author, 'The Irresistible Revolution'

Posted: 05/12/2014 5:06 pm EDT Updated: 05/12/2014 5:59 pm EDT

Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler wrote a piece this week defending the death penalty. In his 1200 word argument for why Christians should support the death penalty, he does not mention Jesus a single time.

Digging deeper, as you read the official pro-death penalty statement of the Southern Baptists, there is not a single reference to Jesus or the Gospels.

There are plenty of other problems with the scriptural maneuvering used to justify the contemporary practice of the death penalty with a few verses from the Bible, in the same way that a few verses were misused to justify slavery. For starters the Biblical death penalty was required not just for murderers, but also for folks that committed adultery, disrespected their parents, collected too much interest, had premarital sex, and disobeyed the Sabbath. But I want to stick with the nagging problem of Jesus, the greatest obstacle for pro-death penalty Christians.

In a recent Barna Poll, less than 5% of Americans think Jesus would support capital punishment, and less than a quarter of young Christians support it. Nonetheless some Christians find ways to sidestep Jesus, the lens through which all of us who claim to be Christians should interpret the Bible and the world around us.

more at link

[AtheistCrusader]

1. I saw this earlier this morning.

It's one way to arrive at an anti-death penalty stance, but not the only.

I start with Blackstone's Formulation, and go from there. Enormous (I would say incontrovertible) evidence of gender and race bias in the application of it. There's also plenty of historical evidence that it is ineffective as a deterrent. And this is something even the President has said publicly, even though he essentially advocated for it as a form of closure for the victims of such criminals. (Which smacks of vengeance to me, not justice)

“I believe that the death penalty is appropriate in certain circumstances. There are extraordinarily heinous crimes, terrorism, the harm of children, in which it may be appropriate. Obviously we’ve had some problems in this state, in the application of the death penalty and that’s why a moratorium was put in place and that’s why I was so proud to be one of the leaders in making sure that we overhauled it, death penalty system that was broken. For example, passing the first in the nation videotaping of interrogations and confessions in capital cases. We have to have this ultimate sanction for certain circumstances in which the entire community says this is beyond the pale”

And I don't fault the president for that, that's actually a very common American stance on it. An improvement over the 'common stance' some 20-30 years ago even.


I hope to see it go away in my lifetime. I think the social consensus on it is in motion right now.

[darkangel218]

2. I didnt read the whole thing

But from what I understand the only thing that makes thus guy be against DP is Jesus??

How can anyone be ok with the DP? Why do we need a super being " to tell us killing people is wrong?

Never mind.

[Goblinmonger]

3. I oppose the DP and support human rights because I'm not dick.

If you need some ancient text (with plenty of DP supporting shit in it not to mention other atrocities) to opposed killing people; if you need god and the threat of damnation to not be an asshole; if you need "Jesus" to tell you that being a douchebag is a bad thing; then those are "you" problems and I wouldn't want to hang out with you because I have no idea why or what you are going to do.

[darkangel218]

4. +1000

[Warren Stupidity]

12. ^there will be no answer to this^

[nil desperandum]

5. Death Penalty

I do not believe it is impossible to support human rights and the death penalty.

For me it depends on what reason is given for the death penalty. If being in an opposing political party results in a death penalty that's a problem.

Being a serial murderer and a violent prison gang member who gets the death penalty sits differently with me.

Unlike random murderers who are not gang affiliated, those murderers who are gang affiliated create tremendous issues of safety in prison facilities. A quick look at the work the Aryans are doing in prison is indicative of that problem. Three guards in three separate maximum security prisons murdered on the same day by Aryans to let the guards know they are not safe in their work places because the Aryans will get them.

Because the Aryans use a complex code in letters and notes to indicate hits on other prisoners and pass information on activities that advance their criminal activities outside the prison walls they can't be allowed these privileges in prison. If they are smart enough to develop a powerful code they are also smart enough to initiate lawsuits to get these privileges back when they are rescinded.

Dead men can't make plans, dead men can't pass coded messages, and dead men can't endanger prison guards.

I would trade every single Aryan life for keeping prison guards safe. The lives of violent criminals don't matter to me at all when considered against the lives of decent people.

If that makes me a monster or an asshole so be it. I've been called much worse and still manage to make it through the day.

[AtheistCrusader]

6. I think the first step in tearing down such ideologies

is to demonstrate that NO human life is cheap or disposable.

[nil desperandum]

8. I think you are right

I also think the reality of dealing with the extreme violence of some prison gangs will create a situation where we place people in a hole and leave them there without ever allowing them out or allowing any other human contact until they die.

That's better than executing them I guess, but not by much.

[edhopper]

7. So you are okay with innocent people being put to death for this

perceived safety?
A recent study found as many as 4% of executions were of innocent people, is that number good with you.
How many innocents are acceptable?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/28/innocent-death-penalty-study_n_5228854.html

And please no Utopian, incontrovertible proof, there have been plenty of those executions that later were shown to be innocent.

[nil desperandum]

9. Aryans

Since I specifically indicated a group of violent criminals already behind bars I thought I was being clear about what I was explaining. Obviously I wasn't as clear as I thought since you didn't understand I was not referencing any crimes other than specific in prison murders executed by violent criminals already imprisoned for other murders or acts so violent they are already imprisoned for life.

While that might fit your Utopian vision of incontrovertible proof it's hardly related to the crimes indicated in the study your HuffPo article is linked to at Scientific American.

Your reference data is irrelevant in the situation I was discussing, again I'm sorry for the confusion.

[edhopper]

10. So you think there

could be laws that explicitly call for the death penalty for Aryan prisoners and excludes it for anyone else?
Perhaps you should look at the state of our prison system and ask why other countries don't have these problems.

People always say it should be reserved for certain people or certain crimes, but it always ends up unfairly instituted and taking innocent lives.

[cbayer]

11. Last time this came up, I presented what looked like a very valid article

that disputed your premise about the increased security risk presented by death row inmates.

Did you get a chance to review it?

[nil desperandum]

13. yes

Right but it doesn't address gang specific issues and control. That's the area I am discussing, I think I have done a terrible job of explaining it.

Specific criminal gangs are able to operate with their leadership infrastructure intact precisely because of rules designed to treat prisoners as humanely as possible. These gangs are operating on a different level complete with coded messages that require cryptology to defeat and organized hits on other prisoners or guards or families of prisoners or guards outside of prison. These gangs, and the Aryans are the best at it although not the only ones use the rules about being allowed out of cell or having the privilege to write letters and notes to conduct violent criminal activities.

These gangs will require either a level of lockdown that is total in every way, meaning they never leave the cell ever under any circumstance or some form of isolation to break the communication platform that is likely to be challenged as violating their basic rights.

The problem lies with me most certainly because I place no value on the lives of men like that and clearly there are many people here who believe the lives of those men are worth the same as their own. I can't comprehend that on any level and it probably means I am broken somehow.

To me they forfeited their rights and their lives when they decided that the rest of society only exists to be violently preyed upon and used for profit or pleasure.

I do appreciate your time as I did yesterday.

[cbayer]

15. I understand your concerns about gang related violence in these prisons.

It's serious and certainly merits very close attention.

As I can not ethically justify the death penalty under any circumstances, I would advocate for the other extreme measures that you outline.

I don't think you are broken at all, you just have a different perspective. And you are very clearly not alone in holding that position, even among liberal/progressive people on this site.

For me it's not about worth but about who should be allowed to make the decisions concerning who is worthy to live and die.

I also appreciate your time and input here.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. If it weren't for Jesus I would have eaten all my children.

Praise the Lord!





Dear Jury: this is humor, I really am not advocating eating children. This is posted in the religion forum, where it really is ok to point out just how ridiculous religious arguments are.