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n2doc

(47,953 posts)
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:58 AM Jul 2014

40 Mexican bishops are taking an 'intensive' exorcism course

Some 40 Catholic bishops from various dioceses in Mexico are attending an "intensive" excorism seminar this week at the Pontifical University of Mexico, according to university rector Mario Flores Angel Ramos.

The bishops will be trained in how to perform exorcisms, which are "a reality in our society and it should be addressed from a biblical, theologic perspective with psychiatric aspects," according to Ramos.

Italian Bishop Sante Babolin, who is leading the training along with a theologian and a psychiatrist, said he has conducted 1,650 exorcisms on 150 people (each case demands a series of exorcisms). He has succeeded 50 times, he said.

Exorcisms, the cleansing of demons from a person or area, are ancient parts of several religions. In Catholicism, exorcisms are church-sanctioned — though rarely talked about — rituals done in the name of Jesus Christ.

more
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/culture-lifestyle/world-religion/140721/40-mexican-bishops-intensive-exorcism-course

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40 Mexican bishops are taking an 'intensive' exorcism course (Original Post) n2doc Jul 2014 OP
Glad to see that it is being run by a psychiatrist. I hope they focus on being cbayer Jul 2014 #1
I'm horrified that a Psychiatrist would touch this with a 10 foot pole. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #3
I would be much more horrified if a psychiatrist were not in charge of it. cbayer Jul 2014 #4
A licensed professional administering it lends the practice credence it does not deserve. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #6
That's your opinion. cbayer Jul 2014 #10
I would rather it not be done at all. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #13
I would also prefer that it not be done at all, and I feel that way cbayer Jul 2014 #17
I just don't see that as 'mitigating'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #19
Well, many have posted links in here of some terrible results of exorcism. cbayer Jul 2014 #20
How does one develop a protocol for something that, as we both apparently assume AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #22
Easy to develop a protocol. cbayer Jul 2014 #27
Sorry, silly skepticscott Jul 2014 #29
No way. No way would I accept that comparison. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #31
It doesn't matter whether you accept the comparison or not. cbayer Jul 2014 #35
There are still huge swaths of people that insist reparation therapy is a real thing and works. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #38
Very few people believe in reparation therapy and there is hard evidence cbayer Jul 2014 #39
VERY FEW? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #41
Next up a protocol for homeopathy. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #48
Exorcism is bizarre, imo. Yet harm reduction is valuable in any setting. pinto Jul 2014 #33
Sure, but that isn't even close. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #47
It was a pretty loose analogy, of course. Yet I was looking at the harm reduction aspects. pinto Jul 2014 #55
And here we go..your favorite last ditch skepticscott Jul 2014 #15
You don't get this at all, do you? skepticscott Jul 2014 #8
So I guess there's less than a 3 percent demon-infestion rate... Arugula Latte Jul 2014 #51
Yes, that is very good news indeed! cbayer Jul 2014 #56
So you agree that edhopper Jul 2014 #5
No, actually I don't believe in demons so I can hardly believe in someone cbayer Jul 2014 #9
Lending legitimacy to this crap harms many people, including all the LGBT people Fancis accuses Bluenorthwest Jul 2014 #11
I know where you stand on this, but I think some compromises have to be made cbayer Jul 2014 #16
When you think that it's fine for children to not be able to tell reality from fantasy muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #21
Yes muriel. Not only do I think it's fine for children to not be able to tell cbayer Jul 2014 #28
"Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man" muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #34
I agree that many things are set in early childhood and that we ought to be very cognizant of that. cbayer Jul 2014 #36
You know you've hit pay dirt skepticscott Jul 2014 #30
The fact that something is better than taking people to a witch doctor skepticscott Jul 2014 #25
an exorcist is a witch doctor. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #46
Dressed up in a different costume skepticscott Jul 2014 #49
actually both do exorcisms. And with more or less the same sort of rituals. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #50
In addition, in areas where witchcraft is still persecuted Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #43
Please stop using the term "placebo effect" skepticscott Jul 2014 #12
I'm confused... Fix The Stupid Jul 2014 #23
I was using the word demon in a colloquial sense, not a religious one. cbayer Jul 2014 #24
You keep repeating "placebo effect" but it doesn't mean what you think it does. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #45
"He has succeeded 50 times, he said." trotsky Jul 2014 #2
What about the 100 other people edhopper Jul 2014 #7
'Rub some dirt on it, and walk it off' AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #14
Tell them to beware of demons that spit out pea soup. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #18
And watch out for the head rotations! longship Jul 2014 #26
Next up - Shadowflash Jul 2014 #32
Yes, because all of those things are longstanding practices in the RCC. cbayer Jul 2014 #40
It is in the same category of stupid. Oh wait, no it isn't, it is far more harmful. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #44
Also, how to tell if someone is a witch. Arugula Latte Jul 2014 #52
Yes, because that's still a common practice (sarcasm). cbayer Jul 2014 #57
Is belief in "demons" a primitive form of Psychology? Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #58
I really cannot understand how educated adults like these men intaglio Jul 2014 #37
It is in how... rexcat Jul 2014 #42
Aren't most exorcisms 'intense'? cvoogt Jul 2014 #53
Bobby Jindal's an expert in this, isn't he? rurallib Jul 2014 #54

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
1. Glad to see that it is being run by a psychiatrist. I hope they focus on being
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:07 AM
Jul 2014

able to spot and appropriately refer psychiatric illnesses, as most people seeking exorcism are likely to have them.

The man running the course says that 97.6% of those seeking exorcism are just "bothered souls".

The article is short on details and is, unfortunately, the only one I could find.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. I would be much more horrified if a psychiatrist were not in charge of it.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:21 AM
Jul 2014

As I noted, this guy thinks 97.4% of those seeking exorcism do not "qualify". That is very good news.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
6. A licensed professional administering it lends the practice credence it does not deserve.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jul 2014

This is no better than a licensed psychiatrist getting involved in 'reparation therapy', which isn't a recognized medical therapy at all.

A horrible abuse of authority.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
10. That's your opinion.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:43 AM
Jul 2014

Like with all kinds of alternative medical practices (and this has a lot in common with those), I am always relieved when a qualified professional is providing oversight.

Would you rather this be run by someone who thinks that every person seeking an exorcism is actually possessed? Because they are out there and would probably love the job.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
13. I would rather it not be done at all.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:50 AM
Jul 2014

'alternative medicine' is medicine that has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
17. I would also prefer that it not be done at all, and I feel that way
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:55 AM
Jul 2014

about a lot of alternative medicine. But my wanting that will not prevent people from seeking it out, so I am in favor of whatever can be done to mitigate potential harm.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. Well, many have posted links in here of some terrible results of exorcism.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:16 PM
Jul 2014

In fact, you may have posted some of them yourself.

If there were a strict protocol and training that included serious education on psychiatric illnesses that may drive someone to seek out an exorcism, I think all of those cases would be avoided, as they would not meet the criteria.

That's mitigating, imo.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. How does one develop a protocol for something that, as we both apparently assume
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:29 PM
Jul 2014

does not exist, and has no possible clinical trials?

Again, I refer you to 'reparation therapy' which cannot attain such protocols either, because it cannot be tested, approved, licensed, etc. It's nonsense. It is not medicine. So too for demonic possession, and stratagems for 'driving out' such non-existent demons.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
27. Easy to develop a protocol.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:46 PM
Jul 2014

Just like there are protocols for other forms of alternative therapies that have not been shown to have any real scientific basis. I don't believe in "chi", but I think those that do and involve themselves in "treatment" benefit from some oversight and protocols that minimize or eliminate risk.

Reparation therapy is a red herring because it actually causes harm not matter what kind of protocol is developed. I would compare it more to accupuncture.

You are not going to get me to defend exorcism as a legitimate practice, as badly as some around here would like that to happen (or are convinced that it has already happened).

But I am defending anything that minimizes and eliminates risks.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
29. Sorry, silly
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:51 PM
Jul 2014

There are better ways to minimize risks than what you're proposing, ways that don't involve the utterly unnecessary promotion of ignorance and medieval superstition. Ways that promote ONLY education and legitimate medical treatment, and never even mention the idea of demonic possession or exorcism.

You know this perfectly well, so we have to wonder why you'd fight so hard to maintain the practice of exorcism. Is your agenda here really that twisted, and are you that desperate to promote it, no matter who suffers the consequences?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
31. No way. No way would I accept that comparison.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:07 PM
Jul 2014

Reparation therapy is wrong because it proceeds from a false assumption; that gender identity other than heteronormative is wrong and must be corrected at all.

Exorcism also proceeds from a false assumption; that demons exist, and can possess humans.

In order for either 'therapy' to 'work', the victim is going to have to buy-into that premise, which actually reinforces the false premise.


In no way does it compare to acupuncture.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. It doesn't matter whether you accept the comparison or not.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:22 PM
Jul 2014

The fact is that reparation therapy has been deemed by the professionals and the courts to be wrong and harmful. There are no protocols because it can't be justified.

Although you and I agree that there is a false assumption underlying exorcism, there are huge swaths of people who don't agree.

So it is going to exist and, as long as that is the case, I will support oversight and strict protocols.

To do otherwise would be turning a blind eye. It's like a firm anti-abortionist wanting to outlaw all abortions then ignore the fact that they are going to happen anyway and they are going to be a lot more dangerous than if they were legal and there was oversight.

Not that I am comparing you to an anti-abortionist, but there is some validity in the comparison.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
38. There are still huge swaths of people that insist reparation therapy is a real thing and works.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:30 PM
Jul 2014

They even insist that legal proscriptions of the practice are an infringement of religious liberty.

Doesn't make it so.

Everything you just said about demonic possession and the 'art of combating that' being wrong, harmful, lacking protocols and unjustifiable' are equally true.

You can't craft a protocol for driving out a demon that doesn't exist.

You CAN craft a protocol for people under the delusion that they are demonically possessed. And this time, I AM using the word delusion in the clinical sense.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
39. Very few people believe in reparation therapy and there is hard evidence
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:37 PM
Jul 2014

against it, which is not the case for exorcism. And those that press the issue lose consistently.

Look, as bad as you might want me to, I'm not going to defend exorcism, but I am going to stand up for those that could be harmed by it and support anything that minimizes risks associated with it.

I am glad that you are using the word delusion in a clinical sense, because those people would absolutely be ruled out under the protocol.

See how that works?

Now, I personally feel we have beaten this dead horse long enough.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
41. VERY FEW?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:35 PM
Jul 2014

"•In 2012-MAY, a CNN poll showed that 58% of respondents believe that a lesbian or gay person cannot change their sexual orientation; 34% believe that they can; 8% have no opinion."

34% is within spitting distance of the number of Americans that reject evolution and insist on strictly creationist origins for humanity.

The Republican Party wing in the state of Texas has made reparative therapy a platform plank.
http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/06/the-texas-gop-advances-its-cure-the-gays-platform/372333/


That is insulting minimization of a VERY large and VERY real social problem.


"In total, fifty-seven percent of all registered voters believe possession is real, with women being more likely than men to believe possession is possible by a 59 percent to 56 percent margin."

These issues are DIRECTLY comparable.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
48. Next up a protocol for homeopathy.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 04:32 PM
Jul 2014

Here is the protocol for both exorcism and homeopathy:

Step 1: Stop. Go see a real doctor.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
33. Exorcism is bizarre, imo. Yet harm reduction is valuable in any setting.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:17 PM
Jul 2014

(loosely analogous) When I worked in HIV testing and harm reduction programs we had many people come in for testing that were at no discernible risk. A good number of repeat testers at no discernible risk.

We were trained to asses risk, administer a test, discuss the result and provide appropriate referrals. That was our limit. Yet, we were also trained to recognize that people came in for testing for some other issue unrelated to HIV. In those instances we were pretty clear to encourage follow up with professional medical / mental health resources.

Obviously not the same situation as the one discussed here. But one similarity - walking in for an HIV test could serve as a portal for more immediate concerns of the client.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
47. Sure, but that isn't even close.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 04:18 PM
Jul 2014

This is the RCC exploiting the poor and the uneducated and the vulnerable.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
55. It was a pretty loose analogy, of course. Yet I was looking at the harm reduction aspects.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:23 PM
Jul 2014

Given the situation as it exists, some professional mediation is better than none. As long as the practice is condoned and people seek it out, harm reduction has a lot of value. Mediation may help protect the most vulnerable. A worthwhile goal, imo.

Should the practice be abolished? Yeah. Should we ignore any chances to reduce its potential harm? No.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
15. And here we go..your favorite last ditch
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:53 AM
Jul 2014

when your facts and logic are shown to be crap. Trying to dismiss anything that undermines your agenda here with "well..that's just your opinion!"

Seriously, do you know how silly it sounds?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
8. You don't get this at all, do you?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:31 AM
Jul 2014

There should be no "it" for a psychiatrist to be in charge of in the first place. Not if " it" involves training people to perform exorcisms to remove demonic possession.

Any sane, rational person would advocate that the RCC send the consistent message that there is no evidence that human beings can be possessed by supernatural beings, and that anyone who appears to be "possessed" should seek or be provided legitimate medical attention. Period. Perpetuating the idea that demonic possession is real or that an exorcism would ever, EVER be appropriate, is grossly irresponsible and endangers people's lives, as has been demonstrated on this board many times.

Are you really so desperate to maintain the legitimacy of this kind of backward superstitious crap?

edhopper

(33,576 posts)
5. So you agree that
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:25 AM
Jul 2014

150 people were possessed by demons, since you condone this practice?

It's really a matter of finding the real possessions that aren't just psychiatric problems that's important, huh?

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. No, actually I don't believe in demons so I can hardly believe in someone
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:41 AM
Jul 2014

being possessed by them.

It is extremely important that psychiatric issues be ruled out because the vast majority of those seeking exorcisms have them, according to the guy who is running this program.

As to the other 2.4%, I'm not quite sure what to make of them. But if they are cleared from a psychiatric POV, I doubt that an exorcism is going to harm them. We have also discussed placebo effects in the past. It is possible that this very small number are experiencing placebo effects.

But I really don't know.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
11. Lending legitimacy to this crap harms many people, including all the LGBT people Fancis accuses
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:47 AM
Jul 2014

of being demonically influenced. His whole 'this is God's war' routine is doing great harm, and his use of the language of demonology to characterize gay people is inexcusable. Anyone who assists that is an assistant to rhetorical bigotry of the very worst kind, a literal demonizing of the hated others.
As Stevie Wonder said 'when you believe in things you don't understand then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.'

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
16. I know where you stand on this, but I think some compromises have to be made
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:53 AM
Jul 2014

if there is any hope for progress at all in the future.

Exorcism has been a problem and has had very little oversight. As a result, many people with serious illnesses have not been adequately assessed or treated. An addition it has been used to target GLBT people and others who are seen to be possessed in some countries/cultures.

Since it is unlikely to be abolished entirely, I think trying to define and utilize strict protocols will limit any potential harm.

I know that we probably will not agree on this, but I think this is a positive step in addressing the problem.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,312 posts)
21. When you think that it's fine for children to not be able to tell reality from fantasy
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:21 PM
Jul 2014

you end up with adults that believe in demons and exorcisms. And those adults are bishops, who pass their childish beliefs on to their 'flocks'. And to children, who have less chance of being able to resist the pressure from adults to swallow the nonsense.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
28. Yes muriel. Not only do I think it's fine for children to not be able to tell
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:48 PM
Jul 2014

reality from fantasy, I think it's healthy.

Your extrapolation has no basis in data and must be only based on your beliefs and your faith.

But it would be a theory worth testing, I would imagine.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,312 posts)
34. "Give me the child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:21 PM
Jul 2014

Attributed to St. Francis Xavier, though may be apocryphal. But it's certainly a commonly held belief in religious circles like the Jesuits. Not just my beliefs and faith.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
36. I agree that many things are set in early childhood and that we ought to be very cognizant of that.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jul 2014

You think religious exposure is damaging in that regard, or so I assume. I do not.

And the Jesuits are my favorite order by far.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
30. You know you've hit pay dirt
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:53 PM
Jul 2014

When you get a response that's another version of "that's just your opinion!"

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
25. The fact that something is better than taking people to a witch doctor
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:43 PM
Jul 2014

still doesn't mean that's it's something that should be promoted by responsible organizations or sensible people.

Ask yourself why the Catholic Church doesn't take the same stance on exorcisms that it does on abortions or contraceptives. They could if they wanted to, very easily. Of course, that would mean admitting that they'd been wrong and foolish and ignorant for centuries, and their hubris is far too great to permit that. Gee.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
49. Dressed up in a different costume
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:00 PM
Jul 2014

and with different rituals, but still wielding the right kind of nonsense to gain the support of ignorant people.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
43. In addition, in areas where witchcraft is still persecuted
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 04:11 PM
Jul 2014

the RCC's new improved exorcism marketing is undermining efforts to abolish witch hunts. But according to some here it is all ok 'cause "placebo".

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
12. Please stop using the term "placebo effect"
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:50 AM
Jul 2014

When you have no clue what it means. You're spreading dangerous misinformation, and blatantly ignoring the real harm that "exorcisms" can do, even after you've been educated on it.

Fix The Stupid

(948 posts)
23. I'm confused...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:32 PM
Jul 2014



http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218141702#post6

In this post you say "Is it possible that some people really are demons and deserve demonization?"


Then on this post# 9 above you say " No, actually I don't believe in demons so I can hardly believe in someone
being possessed by them"





cbayer

(146,218 posts)
24. I was using the word demon in a colloquial sense, not a religious one.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:41 PM
Jul 2014

And I did it specifically because the OP used the word demonize.

In this thread, the word demon is being used in a much more specific way.

I hope that clears it up.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
45. You keep repeating "placebo effect" but it doesn't mean what you think it does.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 04:14 PM
Jul 2014

It is not a catch all that one can use to justify "shit that is nonsense".

edhopper

(33,576 posts)
7. What about the 100 other people
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jul 2014

who were not suffering psychiatric problems (he knows cause he's a psychiatrist) and the exorcism wasn't successful.

Condemn to the demons who have taken them? Oh, the horror.

longship

(40,416 posts)
26. And watch out for the head rotations!
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:44 PM
Jul 2014

Exorcism is a scam, because demon possession is a scam, because demons are a scam.

Of course, there's always Father Amorth who claims some tens of thousands of exorcisms. And apparently the Catholic Church attempted to exorcise Hitler. Read about it here. (Okay, it's the Daily Mail, but it's also Father Amorth. The two somehow go together.)

And then there are all the stories of exorcisms that went very bad.
One might ask, What's the harm? <=This is the harm.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
57. Yes, because that's still a common practice (sarcasm).
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:21 AM
Jul 2014

Maybe exorcism will also become extinct. We can hope so. I the meantime, it makes sense to regulate it so that no harm is done.

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)
58. Is belief in "demons" a primitive form of Psychology?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:56 AM
Jul 2014

What could possibly be the religious and scientific truth, if any, behind Exorcism?

Roughly, exorcism is based the belief in “spirits” and so forth. Essentially, this is literally a Stone Age belief that can be found in countless technologically primitive cultures that have been investigated by Anthropology. If there is any factual basis for it this ancient belief, it would seem likely that it is in effect an early form of Psychology; “spirits” is in effect, an early metaphor for “thoughts,” moods, obsessions, mental orientations. Ideas which can be good: “good spirits.” Or bad: “bad spirits” or “demons.”

Exorcisms are based on the belief that otherwise good people can be possessed by invisible bad “demons” and “evil spirits.” And the aim of exorcism is to get the evil spirits to leave, to cease occupying the victim. But in the more modern language of Psychology, we might say that the belief is that a given victim has his mind occupied by some destructive thought(s), ideas; and the hope is to make those thoughts go away. The ancient belief in “spirits” can make a certain amount of modern sense; belief in “spirit”s and so forth, amount to an early, primitive form of Psychology. They are both concerned with finding destructive ideas, concepts, in the mind; and getting them out.

So the word “spirit” or “demon” we might suggest, was in effect an early term for some of the thoughts, ideas, that can possess our minds. But primitive as this ancient Psychology was, we now need to make some improvements in this ancient belief. First: 1) we need to note that what we are talking about when we are talking about “spirit”s, is really, thoughts, or ideas. And then next, we need to make another important refinement: 2) if we are going to have to hold to the original language of Exorcists at all, then we should note this: that exorcists need them to ask themselves which thoughts, “spirits,” really ARE evil, and which are the truly good spirits. Surprisingly, the Bible itself warned that in the end, the very things that our religious leaders think are “good,” are often evil; and “evil, good” (Isa. 5.20, etc.). So we are supposed to "test the spirits" (1 John 4.1).

Our preachers are very, very sure that they themselves are good. And that they know good spirits or ideas vs. evil ones, when they see them. But surprisingly, even the Bible itself constantly warned that often, religious leaders get things exactly backwards; those they think are good prophets, are often “false prophets”; the leaders they thought were good apostles, were “false apostles.” And so forth. And especially? The “spirits” and angels – thoughts - they thought were good, are often really evil (“Satan disguises himself as an angel of light”; see also 1 John 4.1). And finally, things they think are good spirits, may have been evil.

Today in fact, no doubt the Church is hearing more and more people, ideas, that violently condemn the Church; that say that the Church itself is really the "evil one." Priests and ministers might want to silence or "exorcise" such voices when they appear in an individual. However, ironically, those might often be the voice, after all, of truth; not sin and error.

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
37. I really cannot understand how educated adults like these men
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:28 PM
Jul 2014

... can continue to live in such a demon haunted world. A world where magic and dark powers really exist and cause vast suffering unless a bishop/wizard intervenes.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
42. It is in how...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:37 PM
Jul 2014

Someone uses their education and intelligence that maters. Obviously these people don't use either very well. It would seem to me that their religious beliefs seems to be getting in the way of any rational, cogent thought processes!

rurallib

(62,413 posts)
54. Bobby Jindal's an expert in this, isn't he?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:35 PM
Jul 2014

Why doesn't he teach it. Then he wouldn't be doing harm to Louisiana.

Actually maybe he could use this service himself. He's been seized by the tea party demons

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