Supporting Atheists on DU

[TygrBright]

As a theist, I enjoy the privilege that comes with our culture's assumptions about religious belief. So I feel a bit awkward starting a thread with this title. I deal with the ubiquitous, entrenched, oppressive effects of patriarchy all the time, and while I appreciate allies from the other gender, I do sometimes wish they'd stop assuming that their support is something that it isn't.

(For the record, I'm always grateful when good people do things that promote equity, community, and connection. But it is and should be sort of the default, not a lets-hold-a-metaphorical-ticker-tape-parade accomplishment.)

So, I do feel kind of hypocritical coming up with this. On the other hand, I also know the real value of allies who can speak from within the "cone of privilege" to make others aware of the privilege we share and how it affects those who live outside it. So I'm trying to think from within my experience of being outside the patriarchy cone of privilege, and apply it to being within the theoarchy cone of privilege, if that makes any sense. And this is what I come up with for supporting atheists here:

First, don't knee-jerk, reflexively go to the default "not all believers" defense mode, yes? I think most atheists are well aware of the diversity among theists, but the reality remains that belief itself, in any variety, entitles privilege, and in the struggle to end that privilege, there's really not that much difference between my gentle and (I hope) non-toxic practice of Christianity, and the skeevy would-be theocrats who want to use the overall structure of theoarchy to empower their own particular brand of Christianity. It's all theoarchy, and that's the problem. Not my specific belief, or yours, or even <gag> Pat Robertson or Ayatollah Khomeini's.

Second, check and re-check your asssumptions. About belief, about atheism, about believers, about atheists, and about the theoarchy we live in. Let me examine just a few of the commonest ones I can see from my feminist standpoint:

"All atheists are alike, all atheists believe the same thing, all atheists want the same things." Yeah, right. Just like feminists, huh? There's no spectrum at all among us feminists, we all have perfect unity of belief, purpose, strategy, awareness, etc. Puh-leeze. Any given atheist is speaking for themself, and worth listening to from that standpoint. But don't assume they're speaking "for" or "on behalf of" ALL atheists.

"Poor things, they're so handicapped by not having the experience of faith in their lives." I think if I were an atheist, this is the one that would drive me eye-crossingly, mouth-frothingly insane with annoyance. Here's the analog from my experience: "Poor women, they have that monthly mood swing thing, the bleeding and all-- not their fault but they just don't enjoy the benefits of masculine emotional stability, right?" Stop assuming that a life without faith is inferior to a life with faith. Just stop it. Take that on faith, if you have to.

"They're just so bitter and hateful, so argumentative and demanding-- it's self-defeating!" Hoo, boy. How many times have women heard that one? Or African Americans, during the civil rights struggle? Yeah, the "strident woman," "angry black man" crap. In any civil rights struggle, there's a leadership role for anger, for rage, for raising awareness, for negativity, AND there's a role for dialog, for open-mindedness, for building alliances and making strategic compromises. Atheists will deal with what's needed when and how, it's their struggle. No one is requiring you to engage with the ones expressing anger. If it bothers you, just disengage. But don't generalize from the experience.

Yes, some atheists feel a need to ridicule beliefs and believers. Boo-hoo, how terrible. They're oppressing us here in our theoarchy cone of privilege. You know what? If our beliefs aren't strong enough to stand a little ridicule, maybe we should be looking to our own faith rather than their lack of faith.

So, here on DU, I'm committed to doing those things. Not because I want the Undying Gratitude and Respect of the atheists here, any more than I feel obliged to acknowledge what should be the default operating style of men (working to overcome patriarchy) with Undying Gratitude and Respect.

But because while the struggle of atheists to overcome theoarchy is THEIR struggle, in the long run it benefits me and every other believer. Just as the ultimate end of patriarchy will benefit my grandsons and their sons.

thoughtfully,
Bright

[Kali]

1. this is fantastic, thank you!

and honestly, I hope some of the men that have such problems with some of the women on this site can gain from your excellent post as well.

[rug]

2. Do you support this charming little subthread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=142446

[TygrBright]

5. uh... I think there's way more subtext and history behind that subthread...

...than I am aware of.

In cases like that, I leave it alone. No one is likely to benefit from my support or condemnation, in any case.

quizzically,
Bright

[cbayer]

11. Exactly the point. That is a subthread that is a full frontal assault on me personally.

I generally don't see these things as I have all those people on ignore, but looked at it for the purpose of understanding this conversation.

Generally not only do I leave it alone, but I am totally unaware of it. And that's the truth.

You are right. There is way more subtext and history than you are aware of, and slapping the hands of those that object to some of the behavior here is probably a reflection of that.

[TygrBright]

13. Well, adding more conflict to a conflict rarely produces much...

...in my experience.

Being a mod in this forum seems like it would inevitably result in developing an ignore list as the most positive possible response.

diffidently,
Bright

[cbayer]

16. I am done here.

This is going to turn into a huge, ugly meta thread with lots of attacks against me and others.

I'm not interested.

[hrmjustin]

17. I agree cbayer.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

3. Thank you for your support...

Well thought out post, very much appreciated by this atheist.

Most of us were not "born this way". It came to us with deliberate thought and sometimes much time and anguish.

I was raised a Roman Catholic. Never heard the answers to the questions I raised.
Study led me to a "non" status. Took comparative religion classes. All led to my current status as an atheist.

Thanks again.

[hrmjustin]

4. Interesting.

"Yes, some atheists feel a need to ridicule beliefs and believers. Boo-hoo, how terrible. They're oppressing us here in our theoarchy cone of privilege. You know what? If our beliefs aren't strong enough to stand a little ridicule, maybe we should be looking to our own faith rather than their lack of faith."

[Htom Sirveaux]

6. I especially like this part:

No one is requiring you to engage with the ones expressing anger. If it bothers you, just disengage. But don't generalize from the experience.

If someone is in a place of anger rather than dialogue, judging them for that is going to lead to...more anger! And a vicious cycle of sticky negative emotions ensues.

If someone needs something from you, like listening non-defensively or validating their emotions, consider just giving it to them rather than assuming that doing so is weakness and reacting by drawing a line in the sand that they should only get what they want on your terms

[trotsky]

7. This is greatly appreciated.

Especially by many of us who have literally been called "demons" because of our more vocal approach to criticizing religion.

[rug]

8. Surely you have that link.

[mr blur]

24. Don't pretend that you, of all people, need one.

[hrmjustin]

27. It is reasonable to ask.

[rug]

29. Don't pretend he's telling the truth.

Go on, post the link. I remember the thread that this distorted whine is coming from.

[mr blur]

44. Careful, your desperation is showing.

[hrmjustin]

46. I notice no link was provided.

[rug]

47. The link isn't.

Why don't you get it?

[hrmjustin]

30. Who called you demons?

[rug]

32. Maybe he imagined it.

Or maybe he's flat out lying.

[cbayer]

9. While I appreciate your effort and thoughtfulness here, I am not sure

you have spent enough time in this group to really understand the issues.

This tension here is not between atheists and theists. There is a great deal of respect and civil conversation between those two groups.

The problem here is between a group of hostile and aggressive individuals who identify themselves as atheists but are something quite distinct from that. They relentlessly attack both believers and non-believers.

To follow through with your comparison, there are feminists and men who are not really feminists, but are not hostile towards them. Then there are misogynists who are actively hostile.

Show me an instance like you describe of the ""Poor things, they're so handicapped by not having the experience of faith in their lives." It just doesn't happen here.

Certainly you have obtained your perspective from something you have seen here, but I am at a loss to see what that is exactly.

At any rate, I don't expect these people to go away and I definitely don't anticipate that they will change in any way. But I'm not going to make nice-nice when they openly attack me and others day after day. I'm just going to ignore them.

[TygrBright]

14. Perhaps I should have posted this in GD, then.

I wasn't, actually, thinking about this forum in particular.

I was thinking pretty much DU-wide.

But since it's on a topic that I thought would be categorized in this forum, I put it here.

And so it appears I've stepped in it, and I apologize.

I do actually subscribe to this forum and do quite a bit of reading here, but I don't engage in conflict and generally abandon reading thread responses that seem overloaded with it, to me.

Should I move this post?

Or leave it?

I genuinely was NOT commenting on this forum or any of the folks here.

amenably,
Bright

[Lordquinton]

21. This thread is perfect

There is a group here that claim impartiality, but when any issue about belief comes up, the self styled atheists side with believers every time. The pope condemns gays? well he can't do everything. Hundreds of girls are kidnapped by Islamic militants? Totally not a religious matter. Irish orphanages run by Catholics with abysmally high mortality rates? here's 200 Google links that don't actually say anything, but good luck refuting them all.

This is the perfect forum for it, this is a message that has been said a thousand times by atheists, but never listened to.

You commented about allies and how you don't always want someone who is not you speaking for you, but it often takes a privileged person to set it straight to others in regards to how it is, and how they need to check themselves.

[edhopper]

31. This forum

Is the right place for your thread.
Thanks.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. you have nothing to apologize for, you just ran into one of our many characters here.

this particular one loves to pronounce a lot about bad atheists, and you needed a good slapping around for daring to reach out. Don't take it personally.

[trotsky]

20. Make sure to keep labeling those you don't like as "the other," cbayer.

Reject the label we choose to apply to ourselves, while admonishing anyone who uses a label in a way you don't like.

Keep pretending that a bunch of evil demons ruin everything, and make sure to bash them whenever you can. Call them demons, too, that will help for sure. Be sure to act the same way you accuse them of acting, but pretending you're wonderful.

I think that if you would stop acting like such a bossy hypocrite (note to inevitable jury who will be convened to judge this post: I didn't call her a bossy hypocrite, I'm just comparing her actions to one), you might find that yes indeed, change IS possible.

But continue ignoring me and thinking there's absolutely nothing wrong with you accusing another DUer of proposing genocide and laughing it off as "hyperbole" yet hinting that yet another DUer is mentally unstable or violent for using the expression "going for the jugular."

[rug]

33. Yeah, labels like "A person Who Knows Everything".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218142415#post12

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. This is pretty blunt of you, cbayer:

"The problem here is between a group of hostile and aggressive individuals who identify themselves as atheists but are something quite distinct from that. They relentlessly attack both believers and non-believers. "

I didn't think you'd be as straight-forward in your description of your husband as that.

[rug]

35. I didn't think you'd be as dishonest as to attempt that lame deflection.

Oh, hell, I did. Attacking her spouse as her spouse is simply yet another low.

[hrmjustin]

36. Wow!

[Warren Stupidity]

40. Charming and classy as always.

A believer comes here to reach out to atheists and you see it as yet another opportunity to drop a turd in the punchbowl.

At least you are consistent.

[okasha]

10. As a practicioner of a religion that was systematically suppressed

in the US, I can't agree that belief itself is automatically privileged. When I was a child, my uncles carried weapons to Ceremony, just in case the whites down the road chose to demonstrate just how unprivileged our belief was.

[hrmjustin]

12. Thank you for posting this.

[okasha]

23. You're welcome, justin.

And with that, I, too, am going to step out of here.

[TygrBright]

15. You raise a VERY interesting point about the confluence of oppressive practice...

...and how it conveys hierarchical oppressions within otherwise-privileged status.

Thank you for bringing that into the discussion. I'm fairly sure that some Satanists and Santeria practicioners and other "antiprivileged" beliefs would share this experience, too.

appreciatively,
Bright

[okasha]

22. So, currently, do American Muslims,

as well as those judged, somehow, to "look like" Muslims. A violent upsurge in anti-Semitism is occurring in France while we have this genteel conversation. The "privilege of faith" is not as broad as you have painted it, and for practicioners of some minority religions, it is revocable without notice.

[edhopper]

38. Can ask what religion that is?

Just curious.
I promise, no snark, no negative comment.

[Warpy]

19. Newly minted atheists are very likely to be angry and very bitter

especially when they come from religions that are heavily damaging to women and/or to the human spirit, in general. I know I was and I wasn't even a teenager yet.

It took me a long time to come to terms with what support belief gave to people in crisis and to respect other people's right to believe.

That doesn't mean I respect the beliefs, themselves; I don't. However, I try to keep the snark to the safe A&A haven, which is where it belongs.

Thank you very much for this post.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. "Heavily damaging to the human spirit" --well said.

Telling people they are evil sinners just because they are breathing, the starting premise of Christianity, is an excellent way to destroy the human spirit. We all make mistakes, and telling people that makes many of them give up hope, since they cannot be perfect like the alleged Jesus. John Bradshaw, Ph.D. has written a lot about the corrosive effects of unmerited shame and guilt which is what a lot of Christianity is about. Shame and control and getting money out of people and making them feel bad.

It takes a lot of strength to walk away from this culturally approved shame-inducing machine of Christianity. Some people can't deal with those impossible standards and give up and kill themselves. And they're busy scaring the curiosity out of children and breaking their spirits, which in my opinion is evil. Obedience is their highest value, not morality, which leads to "I was only following orders".

Dr. Brene' Brown has a TED talk on shame and the difference between shame and guilt. Guilt is "I did something bad". Shame is "I AM bad". Shame is positively correlated with depression, addiction, criminality and such, according to Dr. Brown. And churches are generally shame-inducing machines. Dr. Brown says also that guilt (having a conscience about doing wrong) is negatively correlated with depression and addiction. Shaming is a label other people give us to control us, in my opinion.

I think many people use their religion as a way to deflect responsibility. They can say "Oh it was god's will. It's not my fault."

And some fundamentalists are so into a siege mentality, that they can't deal with the outside world and see all of the outside world as evil, and they cannot move outside their tight knit group. I've heard of fundamentalist college students killing themselves after one semester of college because their parents had not prepared them to live in regular society. That's sad.

I guess some people have low self esteem and don't mind having a minister who knows nothing about them preaching at them on Sunday about what worthless sinners they are. I am not one of those people.

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. Thank you. And I should try to cultivate that attitude for the groups in which I am in the majority

or with most power, as a white, heterosexual male.

[MellowDem]

28. Thanks...

You put into words what a lot of believers still have a hard time seeing through their privilege. I appreciate it.

[Curmudgeoness]

34. Thank you, Bright,

from a female atheist who understands what you are saying on both levels.

[F4lconF16]

37. K&R and bookmarking.

This was an excellent post, and thanks for taking the time to write it. I have a few people I'll share it with, and not even for the theist/atheist subject but for the idea of awareness as a whole.

[Rainforestgoddess]

39. Adding on my thanks as well.

And I agree it's a good way to think on all subjects where one's own viewpoint is from the majority or privileged.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

42. I can't say thank you enough

It's nice that someone gets its, even if it's still a rare thing, even at DU.

[mr blur]

45. Thank you so much for your words and thoughts.

I'm very very sorry that you had to be deflected, smothered, patronised and dismissed with a pat on the head from the faction that has no time for the tolerance and understanding which you propose.