Depression and religious belief; a comparison

[edhopper]

Last edited Wed Aug 13, 2014, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Robin Williams death has made me think about depression and religious belief.
I have not fully formed these thoughts, only the start of an idea.
But I thought I'd post to see if others want to blather about it too.
Depression is feelings of worthlessness, pain, helplessness, etc.. they are solely within the person, caused by psychological and/or biological problems. It is often true that the person is loved and appreciated, even if they feel the opposite. In other words, their feelings only reflect their inner mind, not how the world really is.
I have often seen religious belief described in similar ways, an inner feeling and not a part of the objective world. Something for which there is no proof, and according to some, can be no proof.
So I see a parallel. I haven't formed anything concrete beyond that, but thought it could start an interesting discussion.

And no, I am definitely NOT saying that religious belief is a psychological illness, just that similar processes might be at play.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. Please see my post in this thread.

The starting premise of Christianity, original sin and its remedy, substitutionary atonement, is horribly depressing. I had to leave Christianity because it made me want to crawl in a hole for the rest of my life. It is not a healthy outlook to think that just because you're breathing you have sin and you're worthless, as in "our righteousness is as filthy rags" etc.

My mistake was believing what a power-hungry preacher was spewing to his congregation every Sunday morning. I think it's criminal to put unearned guilt and shame on people and crush their spirits. Most people never ask questions, because that's how they were raised, and everyone around them reinforces it, and they think god is a cosmic cop that watches everything you do and gets mad at you if you're not perfect, which is an impossible task. And disobedience and questioning is the ultimate sin. It's what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden of Eden. A lot of people live their lives being clinically depressed because they believe these poisonous but socially accepted doctrines. Read "Healing the Shame that Binds You" by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. and former Jesuit priest.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218145206


I was a lot happier when I left. The minister and congregation would not help me. I did not want charity. They just talked holy stuff. I realized that I was far happier being concerned with Hindu and Buddhist philosophy, which had a bigger picture of how to be a good person and what is reality about and not believing in the Abrahamic god. Because he is not a nice guy.

All people are valuable. I can't stand "Amazing Grace" because I am not a "wretch" and I don't think any other human is either. And I don't think anyone needs to be "saved". We have to make our own decisions, stand on our own feet, and decide what is important and worthwhile to us. We all make mistakes, we all sin, but don't need any extra unearned sin heaped on us to cripple us with guilt.

[edhopper]

2. Thanks

I appreciate the post.

But I want to make clear that this thread is not about a causal relationship of religion and depression (though it's perfectly okay if you want to talk about it) but how the two have similar properties. More of a look at the ontology of the two.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. This is just my experience after I looked at what was being told to me, from an objective standpoint

I'm wondering: Why can't we just try to do the best we can and be happy? Without religion entering into it.
Why do we need to be allegedly "saved" first? I think it's unnecessary. My opinion.

I have read that people who are more religious, as tending towards fundamentalist Christians, tend to be fatter. Maybe because the only indulgence that is socially acceptable that feels good is eating? I don't know.

[kickitup]

28. Thank you for posting this. I was raised in a fundamentalist church and truly believe that . . .

damaged my psyche and that of other people in my family. I went through a horrible time when I left, with threats of ostracism and my mother telling me I was basically going to hell. I have issues with OCD that were either caused by religion or worsened by it. Also anxiety and sometimes I still get almost terrified about a possible eternity in hell. I have found an amazing support group online and am lucky to have a super supportive husband, who helped me through the worst of it and basically told them all to kiss his ass. Celexa also helps.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

30. A lot of these people live in a world of negativity.

They don't want their kids to go to public school, because they are convinced the outside world is evil.


They don't prepare their kids for being in the real world and on their own. Disobedience is the ultimate sin. They have nothing to offer their kids except blame, punishment, and negativity. They offer their kids nothing positive, whether attitude or positive goals to work towards. I'm talking about angry white guys, mostly. And then they don't understand why their kids and spouse do not respect them at all. If the kids are lucky they will get out as soon as possible from the abuse. Those so called family values don't work very well in real life. I try to have compassion for their pain.


I was raised in a liberal Christian church. I went through the motions but never talked to anyone about it seeming ridiculous. Several decades ago I found the Unitarian-Universalist church and felt that I belonged there. Later when I went through some setbacks I started going back to a Protestant church that was not as liberal as the one I was raised in. I was hoping that maybe there was something about believing in Jesus and being a Christian that could help me.


They knew Jesus would help me solve my problems. I think they are giving themselves an artificial high. After I left the services and the joyful singing, my life when I went home was still bad. I As it turned out, Christianity was a big sham and all it did was make things worse, because of the emphasis on how sinful we are. None of the people in the church or the ministers would help me find a job. I decided that if God existed and if he works through people on earth, then at least in that congregation, god wanted me to just starve to death and be unemployed and go broke. I had to leave. It was not working for me. And if you tell the people in church that it is not working, they blame you and say you don't pray hard enough, or have enough faith, or whatever, which is quite insulting. And I won't live long enough to go to a zillion churches and say "Can you help me find a job? One that uses my education and skills?"


I still only feel comfortable in a Unitarian-Universalist church and refuse to attend any other church. They are fine with atheists, agnostics, pagans and the baffled and questioning, and draw from many traditions for spiritual sustenance. They have lots of discussion groups before church instead of Sunday school.


It also helped me to read Buddhist and Hindu thought and look at the Asian world view. I started reading the works of Alan Watts, who was an Anglican turned Zen Buddhist, when I was in college, because that was almost the only Buddhist thought available in English forty years ago. I have read Buddhist philosophy as a way to understand yourself, other people, and the nature of reality, and how to lead your life so as to understand others and our apparent reality. Prince Siddhartha, the Buddha, resolved to find out the cause of suffering, and at age 35 he became enlightened. His concepts are quite difficult, sometimes, but worth studying. And I certainly don't understand but a small fraction of his philosophy. He said that he wanted to teach people how to deal with life, not worry about gods. He thought gods were irrelevant.


I have also felt at home at a Mahayana Buddhist temple, but they don't have those where I live now, nor do they have any liberal churches, let alone any Unitarian-Universalist churches. I think most of the people here have probably never met a Jew or a Muslim. And wouldn't like it if they did, because they don't like people who are different from them.


Buddhism is a whole lot more practical and subtle than, "I'm going to heaven because I'm a good Christian and you're going to hell because you don't believe the same way I do! I know what God wants because God tells me!"


Anytime someone tells me that God tells them what to do, I will get away from them because I figure they want to tell other people what to do, and I wouldn't believe them either.


These Christian robots I encounter will never understand what Buddhism or Unitarian-Universalism is about. They are ignorant and proud of it. If I tried to explain I would be wasting my breath. They don't even know they are trapped in their own beliefs by not asking questions. They are terrified of anyone who does not conform. They invite me to their church to be friendly, and don't understand when I explain that I go to a church that draws from many religious and spiritual traditions. They get an uncomprehending look on their faces.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. I agree with your starting premise.

I detect a parallel as well. But I am not sure how to approach the question conversationally, especially without raising anecdotes, particularly an anecdote of one. (Myself)

[TygrBright]

5. That may be why some form of spiritual investment...

...is so therapeutic for many of us in recovery from depression.

I refer to it glancingly here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025374945

But the truth is that without my spiritual beliefs I would be dead now.

That tends to make me value my own faith pretty strongly. It would be easy to generalize from that, that others should share such values, and I have to remind myself that my experience is unique.

As is everyone's.

We can only share so much, and that only if we are respectful of one another.

tentatively,
Bright

[Htom Sirveaux]

6. There is a certain foundational aspect to one's self perception.

A decision to love or hate yourself is not really an empirical one, since a person's life can easily contain evidence both for and against that person. Plus, whichever one you pick, it will likely change your perceptions/interpretation of future experiences.

I kind of see the parallel you are trying to draw, since arguments about the existence of God often depend on how people interpret their experiences, rather than deriving directly from the experiences themselves.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. That's closer to my experience.

The way I usually characterize it is, I have never, for one second, questioned or doubted my self-purpose.

I have never felt that life has a purpose, rather, that I make my purpose in life. I don't have anyone but myself to answer to.

[rug]

7. Research concludes otherwise.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=177228

[AtheistCrusader]

10. "Some of this difference may be due to underreporting in religious countries because of concerns ov"

"er stigma"

And in some countries where religion holds sway, it isn't allowed. So you get old men dying of cancer going to the range, laying out a can of break-free, a rag, and shooting themselves in the head. An 'accident'.

This is a difficult issue to quantify, as the study itself raises in the abstract.

[rug]

11. That is not the conclusion. It is a note on methodology.

[edhopper]

14. I am not asking about a connection between religion and depression

I am wondering about the similarities between religious experiences and other emotional experiences.

[rug]

15. Your first two words were "Robin Williams".

If you genuinely are curious about a potential connection between religion and depression, you'd better be prepared to examine the connection between religion, or irreligion, and suicide.

[edhopper]

16. Since you missed the whole point of my post

and only look for something to be contentious about.
I'll just say have a good day.

[rug]

17. No, I got the whole point of your post.

[Brettongarcia]

34. How can you be sure you got it all? Are you omniscient and perfect?

Certainly Rug is much given to summary judgments. But that's not necessarily a sign of inner perfection.

Coming out with very strong, unequivocal pronouncements, is superficially impressive to some; it sounds authoritative. But others feel such he-man displays of dogmatic certainty, indicate a lack of understanding of the complex nuances and ambiguities of real life.

Many prefer to speak with more circumspection.

[rug]

36. I hold you as a model of circumspection.

[hrmjustin]

9. it is not the same thing.

[edhopper]

13. No it's not

but i see a parallel in the experiences.
One might say, I know there is a God because I feel it, that seems to be similar to how people describe certain emotional states.

Let's forget depression, what about love. Sometimes people will say they know another loves them because they feel it. But at times this isn't true. People have unrequited love that they can't except is not returned. In extreme example this can lead to stalkers.
People will say they know in their heart another loves them. But that doesn't mean it's true.

Again I am not saying religious beliefs are unfounded, just exploring the connections.

[pinto]

12. I've no professional mental health training, so I can't comment.

Appreciate first hand accounts, though, if members are comfortable after some consideration with such personal disclosure.

[Brettongarcia]

18. Here's a modified draft of my review of Robin Williams' death. I knew some people he knew.

The story of Robin Williams (SP?), and Religion, and depression, psychological disorder, are in fact, related; particularly in the story of “Goodwill Hunting.” Religion many say, is in part about low self esteem, conflicting with inner egotism. It is in part about our or others' belief in our own greatness; our superiority to the whole “world.” The biblical hope for instance, particularly, is that the “low” will become the “high.” And Will Hunting (and Williams too for that matter) is similar, a case in point.

Will Hunting as we might call him, is a working-class person (Bostonian?). He is specifically working as a janitor at a great college; where however he is looked down on by professors. But he has great skills, an unappreciated mathematical genius. And he has a supporter: Williams. Who might have been well cast for this role: Williams himself in real life might, like many manic depressives, be accused of being somewhere between 1) a low, free-associating idiocy, or mania. Or a 2) Virginia Woolf, James Joycian, Freudian stream-of-consciousness phenomenologicalist genius.

But more simply: the master motif here is self doubt - alternating will belief and hope in your own guiding star, and its/his brilliance. And the issue is similar in all three. The issue with 1) Williams, 2) Goodwill Hunting, and 3) Religion, is low self esteem, looking for some link to greatness. Framed in part in terms of class warfare: low class vs. high class. It is about dreams of greatness, or undiscovered greatness - vs. the putdowns of class and privilege. (Or alternately, the conscious vs. the unconscious). Blessed are the poor in spirit, because they will triumph over the “high.”

But by the way, the ironies can get to you, and to the Manic Depressive. When you are advanced finally to a level beyond your level of competence. Then you are on top; but then you yourself become an oppressor, after all.

That's probably where the suicide comes in. Religion has this high opinion - and then a low one, of yourself.

The victim becomes the oppressor. Which we see in the case of Christianity as a matter of fact.

[rug]

19. Your "review" of his death?

What do you think it was, a movie?

[Brettongarcia]

20. Those of us in entertainment know that life is art, art is life. Real life is a movie, sometimes.

Anyway, in an obituary of a comedian? Some dark humor is in order.

I think Williams and I both are fans of the Irish Wake; where we drink - and tell maudlin and funny stories about the deceased. Like "a review" of his death.

Anyway, read the draft, and the substance of it.

[rug]

21. And the rest of the world knows a death is neither art nor a movie.

Let alone a review.

[Brettongarcia]

22. In religion, death is often said not even to be death

[rug]

23. Oh it is death in its truest sense. But it's not everything.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. You presume much.

[rug]

25. I observe more.

[okasha]

29. Thank you.

That was my thought precisely.

[Starboard Tack]

42. Excellent movie!

You take care now. Life is good.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

26. A good funeral is one with much laughter & funny stories about the deceased.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. Skip the funeral and go to the wake.

Funerals are just depressing. Burn the body and stick it in a can. Head over to the after party and celebrate a life well lived. Good food, good spirits, good friends.

[Still Blue in PDX]

31. I get what you are saying.

One of the more depressing things about my depression is that I don't have anything to be depressed about. It's just ME.

I'm not saying I'm beautiful or wealthy or talented, but I don't have any horrible deformities and I'm not living in poverty and I'm not disabled or terribly stupid.

This may be a non sequitur, but one of the reasons I left a formal religion is because of the implication and my inferring that I was doing it wrong if God couldn't fix my depression.

[edhopper]

32. Yes often with depression

the emotion comes first, sometimes due to the bodies chemistry, and then we assign the reasons. Trying to find an emotional cause for the way we feel.

Is this that different from some people feeling the presence of God?
They feel something and assign the concept of God to it.

Now I know believers will say that they actually feel God, and I can't say they don't (I don't think they do, being an atheist, but that is just my take). But they should admit that for some they are feeling something else, an emotion that is self generated and think it's God.

I am still just thinking out loud here, so don't parse it too much.

[cbayer]

33. Well, emotional states are real things.

Depression is real, mania is real, love is real, religious feelings are real.

All of them come from within, though they may be triggered by things from without.

They change your perspective but that doesn't make your perspective less real.

If one's "feelings" become too intense, they may interfere with one's ability to accurately determine what is real and what is not. In those cases, one may develop a psychiatric disorder that needs attention.

One's inner mind is generally how the world really is. Your reality is not more valid than mine, even if we experience the exact same thing completely differently.

One should not be expected to provide proof for the way they feel. It just is.

So I think there are some similarities and that is what makes all of these things valuable.

[edhopper]

35. The feelings are real

but I am thinking more about what we perceive as the cause.
People feel depressed, and biology is often the cause, but they might think it is from something wrong with their life or themselves.
They interpret their very real feelings in a way that may not be accurate.

That is the comparison I am thinking about.

[cbayer]

37. Sometimes depression is without a trigger.

Other times it is due to life events.

I'm not sure what you mean as their very real feelings being inaccurate.

Illness can distort reality, that is true.

I don't see any comparison with religious belief here and not sure what point it is that you are trying to make.

[edhopper]

38. If a person is depressed

because of a chemical imbalance, but are unaware of the cause, they often attribute it to real world events or deficiencies in themselves.
Real emotions, but given inaccurate causation by the person.
I am not talking about specific beliefs, more about people who describe feeling the "presence of God".
I will give an extreme example, not everyone who hears God's voice is actually hearing the voice of a deity.

[cbayer]

39. Sometimes people do and sometimes they don't.

More often than not, a person who is having a biologically based depression will be flummoxed because they can't really identify a real world cause to explain what they are experiencing.

I'm not sure what your point is, but despite your protestations, it sure seems like you are trying hard to make the point that religious belief and mental illness are somehow in the same category.

You are right that not everyone who hears voices is actually hearing the voice of anything real, and in particular a deity. Some people are experiencing hallucinations. This is distinctly different than somehow who says the feel the presence of god.

What are you really trying to get at here?

[edhopper]

40. I used love in a post earlier

I am talking about how feelings/emotions and our subjective interpretations of them can sometimes be very wrong.
That is the connection I am thinking out loud about. the feelings are real, where they come from isn't always clear.

I used depression at first because that is what got me thinking about it due to the death of Williams.

[cbayer]

41. I don't think feelings and emotions can be very wrong.

They just are and it is often difficult to adequately explain where they come from, but I don't know that you can attribute a wrong or right to them.

Robin Williams was apparently a theist. He also had some significant struggles with his psyche and with substance abuse. Those things merely are tools that can be used to describe him. They have no relation to each other outside the context of him.