Religion
Related: About this forumUnderstanding religious delusion
- There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
- He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
- During the year, he and the elves build toys.
- Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
- He puts the sack in his sleigh.
- He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
- He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
- He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
- He leaves toys for the children of the household.
- He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
- He does this all around the world in one night.
- Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.
This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.
But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.
What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.
http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm
trotsky
(49,533 posts)At least not in this forum. Never mind the parallels, never mind the similar reasoning, never mind the opportunity to get to the nitty gritty of religious belief. If you compare it to belief in Santa Claus, you are an evil anti-theist who hates religious believers (and probably wants to kill them all!!!! OMGWTFBBQ!!!11ones).
phil89
(1,043 posts)But can never seem to refute it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Now if you can find a good lolcat, you win.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)So stunning.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...is dismissed as "bashing" with zero attempt at argument against or analysis of the point being made.
(But it's not so stunning, since it's so very predictable.)
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Trying to engage now is a waste. You are way behind. You missed the opportunity a long time ago.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Didn't notice all the replies were so old when I responded.
Which doesn't actually stop anyone from providing something resembling an answer of substance.. there's no time limit on those you know.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)In the future no doubt. I look very forward to engaging then. Have a great day!!!!!!
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Over the last 6 months or so we've quoted dozens of serious academic and clinical studies indicating that religion is specifically and by name, "delusion." Beginning with Freud himself, to more current articles.
Starboard Tack seems completely unaware of them. Though we've mentioned them dozens of times.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Do you want to institutionalize 90% of the earth's population? Do you want to set up an Inquisition to filter out the deluded? Maybe send them all to internment camps for re-education? They are no more deluded than you or me. Get over yourself.
Do you think believing in God is a more serious psychiatric disorder than being obsessed with others beliefs?
Do you think believing in God is a more serious delusion than thinking the RCC is the main cause of over population, which in turn, is the main cause of climate change?
If you do, then your priorities are seriously messed up.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Consider for example, the Nazis. Who by the way, often claimed allegiance to God.
What should be done, when billions of people are making a serious mistake?
Ignore it? Tell a few jokes and insults?
By the way; probably everyone on DU is obsessed with other's beliefs. That is why they are here. To argue in the forum of ideally, ideas and beliefs. In the Religion section. Where that seems most appropriate.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)And many are being caused in the name of religion. Not because of religion, but in the name of religion. Big difference.
I make no excuses for religion/s. I have little time for them. They are not a problem here on DU.
Religion is an issue in the world, because it is used to divide, isolate and destroy by those who would manipulate others to gain power.
Religious extremism must be addressed wherever it exists. Not by outsiders, though. And atheists are and always will be outsiders. We should only stand against religious extremism when it affects us directly. Otherwise, they should sort it out "in house". The last thing Catholics need is a bunch of atheists telling them how to sort their shit out. They're working on it and, for the most part, it is their problem.
Same with the Muslims. If they want our help, they'll ask.
I don't think everyone on DU is obsessed with others' beliefs. That is not why most are here. This is a community where we get to discuss ideas and beliefs, not obsess over others.
And what's with the Nazi reference? Are you suggesting some equivalence between the believers in this group and the Nazis?
If so, it would seem that you have an unusual obsession with religion, where you blame it for all wrongs ever committed by mankind.
I think much evil has been committed in the name of religion, as has much good. It's probably a wash, but who's counting?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Matthew 10:34-40
Religion is a ready made weapon, quell surprise some people will seek to use it as a weapon.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I believe in Deities that worshipers of the God of Abraham believe are myths and legends. What someone else thinks of my beliefs doesn't effect me unless it is followed by actions causing harm. I respect people's right to their own point of view.
I think that because of the sheer numbers of believers in the God of Abraham that they have a hard time conceiving of someone viewing their Diety as a mythological figure and therefore find it offensive.
okasha
(11,573 posts)of the Green Man/Holly King. I have Wiccan friends, and circle with them occasionally.
phil89
(1,043 posts)You would be laughed at and/or considered to be in need of help. Funny how religion gets such special treatment.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)I think everyone would prefer not to be laughed at or considered crazy, just as a matter of basic human dignity.
Do you think believers deserve to be denied that basic human dignity?
phil89
(1,043 posts)in that a particular set of (often violent/disgusting) myths are taken seriously and others aren't. It's perfectly acceptable for people in the US to believe a god/man was tortured and killed/resurrected to save them from hell...but believing in Santa would seem silly. Rational thought applies to one but not the other.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)If everyone was consistent and respected each other's myths (just as they respect each other's food preferences), that would answer your complaint of inconsistency, and nobody would get laughed at or called "crazy."
Much more pleasant, right?
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)might beg to differ about people respecting their food choices.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I get grief every day about being Vegan. I don't dare tell my workmates that I am an atheist!
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)You suggest, like a typical religious liberal, that we should just respect other's religion or myths. And that would solve everything. But it does not.
Unfortunately, some myths are destructive.
1) How about those demanding human adult sacrifice? Here we might ask such people to respect and not interfere with others. But they might not.
2) Even your non-interference religion, ends up interfering after all. Consider those who demand we teach Creationism, to respect their myths? This takes up our class time and tax dollars.
3) Or consider this belief, which would seem to totally passive, not interfering with others at all: what if their belief is that only "faith" is good, and science and reason are bad? What about say, the person who hates reason and science (and supports only "faith" . This person does not impose his beliefs on others. But he, having little reason, must be physically taken care of by others; or else he expires. Or he, having little reason, is a dangerous driver, and a dangerous cook, say.
Is the liberal Christian prescription really workable? Is it really possible to leave others to their myths, everyone not effecting others? Such persons can often end up being destructive to themselves and others, usually, one way or another. Indirectly.
Should we respect everyone and their religion, their myth? Your solution doesn't really solve some problems. The main problem of your typical liberal theology is that often, even a religion that does not force its myths at all on others directly, would do so indirectly: such people vote their preferences after all, consciously or unconsciously. Or their beliefs infect their interactions with others. Sometimes in a very destructive way.
It is a pleasant UU liberal fantasy that we can allow all religions, all myths. Or especially we can, if we specify that no one imposes their own beliefs on others. But as a practical matter the UU liberal religion does not work. Because as a practical matter, people's beliefs often affect their behavior. In ways that often impose negatively on others around them.
So your typical Universal libertarian liberal religious apologetic, does not work. It is not true that if everyone just respected other's religions, and did not try to impose their religion on others, everything would be just fine.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)because tolerance for them leads to tolerance for harmful sexual practices. You raise the bogeymen of human sacrifice and creationism the way conservatives raise bestiality and pedophilia. Would it be too much to ask that you reflect on what distinctions we could make that would allow us to tolerate different myths and religious disagreement while still avoiding "anything goes"?
UUs have a long history of fighting for religious freedom, a goal which is furthered by opposing those who would impose their myths on others. It is the imposition that is being fought, not necessarily the myth itself. A UU Christian and a fundamentalist Christian can be on opposite sides of the battle over creationism in the classroom despite valuing the same myth. It's all in how you handle the mythology.
Religious freedom is not an end unto itself. It is part of a larger vision of human dignity. We do not promote "a free and responsible search for truth and meaning" or "acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations" apart from "the inherent worth and dignity of every individual" or "justice, equity and compassion in human relations" or...you get the idea. They all go together. The interpretation of religious tolerance that you offer would have to be rejected as incompatible with our other principles.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)And as a teenager many years ago, I learned and supported the liberal Christian religion that you describe. For years I thought that a liberal non-interfering religiosity, was the answer. However, from a more left-wing perspective, there are many problems even with a liberal religion.
Above, I sketched out a quick look at how three or four forms of liberal religiosity backfire. And end up being destructive after all.
Yes, on paper you limit religious freedom, when it does not acknowledge "acceptance of one another." That helps. But it does not recognize that even those who are simply trying to live their own life, often effect others. Often, even fatally.
In my many posts here, I am noting destructive, even fatal forces even say, in the "spirituality" that you advocate. A discussion which you noted before in fact. So that even the core values you advocate, are far more destructive than you imagine (James 2.14-26; 1 John 4.1 ff). What if we extend tolerance to anti-rationality, for example? As it turns out, that is dangerous to others, if you yourself are irrational.
The "Non Interference Directive" looked good in UU and Star Trek. But in actual practice it turns out to be extremely hard, even impossible, to live a life in which your beliefs do not effect others; for better or for worse.
That being the case, we want to make sure that such influences are of a positive sort. While even core UU values like "spirituality" and religiosity, turn out to be surprisingly destructive.
For thousands of years religious ascetics and hermits tried an extremely non-interfering religion; living in the wilderness, far away from all other people. But as it turns out living far away from all others, ultimately did not make them more tolerant, but less so. In the end they came back; interfering with a vengeance.
Htom Sirveaux
(1,242 posts)When people have the power to choose, you assume at least some risk that they end up choosing badly. Are you saying that we should not only limit freedom, but abolish it rather than accept any risks inherent in it?
If so, then that is indeed not very liberal at all. It may be "left" but it is "left" of a totalitarian flavor.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Especially when they lead someone to support oppressive institutions like religion.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)If you feel that religious belief is irrational, then you must provide evidence of that being the case.
Since you do not know what the truth is when it comes to the existence of god, you can not claim that a belief is irrational.
Well, of course you can claim that but you would be wrong.
And you also cannot support a broad brush claim that religion is an oppressive institution. While you may be able to cite examples of some religious institutions being oppressive, your blanket claim is unsubstantiated.
Hey, let's use a little reason and rational thought here and back off from the totally emotion based beliefs. Whaddayasay?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Your mantra, when determining which religious beliefs are acceptable, has always been "as long as they don't harm anyone."
However, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, who gets to determine what harms someone else? One of the most blatant examples of the contradiction here is a person who believes that a human life begins at conception? From their perspective, the beliefs of anyone who is pro-choice definitely harms. So what then?
Can't wait to see the evidence that you should provide, given your own standards you require from others.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)if people respected beliefs about human sacrifice giving them "salvation" and other anti humanist nonsense.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)How did you even find it?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The Delusionists are here to tell you all the truth.
Down with imagination!
Down with fiction!
Down with art!
Let's get back to some good old puritanical boredom. Partypoopers rule!
You guys are a fuckin' riot!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Your endless dishonest misrepresentations are entirely typical.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)You didn't get accused of advocating genocide.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)But you seem to be very opposed to myths and fairy tales. Lighten up Warren, it's really not such a hell on earth being surrounded by people who believe in all kinds of things. If they aren't bothering you, leave them alone, and stop insulting them at every opportunity.
They are not DELUSIONAL! Get over yourself!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)But they are myths and fairy tales. They are fiction. If religious people acknowledged that their myths and fairy tales were fiction, that they just like to hang out together and sleep through tedious sermons, that religion is not transmitted truth from supernatural beings of unquestionable authority that must be obeyed, if organized religion had no more impact on society than book clubs, I wouldn't care at all about religion.
Keep making shit up about my position though, it certainly is entertaining.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Why the fuck do you care? I'm an atheist and I don't care diddleysquat about religion. Why do you? Why this obsession? Sure, I can understand you being pissed if people come knocking on your door, or discriminating against you at work, but what exactly is your beef? You feel it so strongly, that you think 90+% of the planet is delusional. WTF is that all about. Let it go Warren. Get a fucking library card and find some good books to read. Enjoy life. It's a blast.
sammythecat
(3,568 posts)you should "care diddleysquat about religion". You are feared, distrusted, and discriminated against privately and even publicly by a very large percentage of Americans. So, there's that, and a host of other problems and, at best, annoyances to deal with because you are effectively surrounded, in all phases of life, by people whose lives are governed in large part by their belief in Zeus. And most of these people also expect and automatically presume that you too worship the god of thunder.
Maybe you live in exceptional circumstances but you're certainly smart enough to be aware that most atheists do have to deal, to some extent, with these issues.
stone space
(6,498 posts)RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where's my duct tape?
sammythecat
(3,568 posts)"You are feared, distrusted, and discriminated against privately and even publicly by a very large percentage of Americans."
Are you really so ignorant that you find this statement to be utterly ridiculous. I'm guessing that when I included fear you thought godzilla or something like that. If you're really unable to find any truth to what I said. if you think being openly atheist in most areas of this country is as consequence free as being openly Catholic or openly Baptist, then you're surprisingly ignorant or just arguing for the sake of arguing. In either case, I've said all I need to say and I'm done with this.
stone space
(6,498 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)I've been an atheist for over half a century, now.
You seem to be on a campaign to scare us.
Why?
What's with the fear mongering here?
There's plenty of very real things for me to fear.
Being attacked for being atheist is pretty low on that list. It really is.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Not wanting to sound flippant, but religion doesn't bother me. Not because I feel especially privileged, but because it literally, does not bother me. Assholery bothers me, regardless of where it comes from. People who call other people "delusional" and "psychotic" because of their personal beliefs bother me. People who carry guns around bother me. People who drive gas guzzling vehicles bother me. People who shop at Walmart bother me. People who believe they need Jesus in their life don't bother me. I might roll my eyes occasionally, but they don't bother me.
I've racked up 7 decades on this planet, almost 6 as an atheist, and never felt feared, distrusted or discriminated against (except when my hair was long), even when I lived in America, which was about half my life.
Yes, of course I live in exceptional circumstances. I don't judge others for their beliefs and I tend to get the same in return. It's called the world of respect. I don't hang with disrespectful people. Call me picky. I avoid bigots and assholes in general. It's amazing how well that works out. Karma.
Being an atheist, I don't feel obliged to attend church, pay tithes, spend time on prayer, bible study, blessing people when they sneeze. I feel very entitled in so many ways. Even when I lived in the Bible Belt, I'd stay home when the family went to church. No big deal. Sure they thought I was a little odd, but not dangerous. Being nice to everyone helped, I guess, but that came naturally. Iwas always happy to have the house to myself for a while. And they got to tell me the local gossip and who we were burying that week. So, it all worked out.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)How nice for you that since you've never experienced it, The broad, easily, and repeatedly measurable distrust of atheists by the religious populace has no consequences at all.
How wonderful, for you.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Yet here you are, in the Religion forum, discussing Religion.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Two atheists talkin' about religion. Ain't that a hoot?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You're the one that claims he doesn't care, yet here you are, caring.
You have a nice day.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)That's why I'm here. Didn't you realize that?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Someone has to keep things honest, right? And you have gotten much better of late. Hopefully, we all have. Keep it up and you'll be a role model one day.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That person sure as hell ain't you.
But you keep telling yourself whatever you need to. I know you will.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Sounds like a little religious entitlement you're using there.
napi21
(45,806 posts)should chastize the other for what they believe, and STOP trying to change me!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,576 posts)By challenging peoples beliefs?
At what point should we leave beliefs unquestioned?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)to rationally challenge them, then leave those that believe alone.
You have done your own internal challenge and came to your own space. Why is it so difficult for you to allow others to do the same?
edhopper
(33,576 posts)no religious beliefs for which there is evidence that they don't exists.
Which beliefs are okay to challenge for you and which aren't?
A list would help because i wouldn't want to confront those with special privileged.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I am all in favor of adamantly challenging religious beliefs that fly in the face of evidence based science.
But if you have no evidence, just your own beliefs, then you can challenge all you want, but you have no credibility to do so.
Make your own list.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)of what is evidence. And who has the burden of proof.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's beating a dead horse, since no one is trying to prove anything to you here.
What is your definition of evidence?
If you make an assertion that there is no god, then the burden is on you to provide evidence.
And that is what you do.
I don't see anyone here making the assertion that there is a god, only that they believe there is.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)religious believers.
Great advice! I recommend it.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)from a scary site.
Go with it if it makes you feel good.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)to find absolute trash is simply astounding.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)insecure about their personal position that they need to claim that those that see things differently from them are psychiatrically ill.
It's pathetic.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's embarrassing and one should feel empathy, but don't feel insulted.
It's not about you.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)nt
cbayer
(146,218 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why do you think the site is "useless?"
How about discussing your objections openly and using the opportunity to educate rather than just angrily bash?
rug
(82,333 posts)It must be imaginary now.
TM99
(8,352 posts)It just perpetuates the conflicts here, and the irony is that if posts like this were made about non-believers, there would be complaints of bigotry, privilege, and incivility.
There is literally nothing of substance in the linked to post. Nothing but pseudo-science as it is not actual psychology. I thought most atheists were against that kind of 'woo'.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It truly doesn't get much lower than this.
I also thought that those driven by reason, rational thought and science would avoid this kind of garbage like the plague.
Apparently I was wrong.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)This stuff is basic middle school skepticism. And I think that those "driven (I like to say 'guided') by reason, rational thought and science" would understand that those stories can't be true.
Unless you're saying this stuff is too basic...
--imm
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's less than too basic.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)Middle school logic is hard to integrate into reality for some.
--imm
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)These people mock others to feel better about themselves.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Response to Maedhros (Reply #56)
cbayer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Will you be participating in your own thread? Nah! Thought not. Throwing out scraps for the puppies to chase.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Does the same thing in the Gungeon. Some of his posts there are excellent too, but never a comment or thread tending. I don't get it.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Mormonism a couple of times. J. Witnesses at times. But Santa Clause ? LOL, nah.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I thought it was a good lesson in not believing everything authority figures tell them to believe.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I wrapped their presents and put tags on them that said:
To: my child
From: Santa
I am full of grief and remorse for my terrible wrongdoing.
pinto
(106,886 posts)So my grandfather would pick up all us kids for a ride around town to see the lights on houses, trees, etc. And give Santa a chance to stop by.
When we got home, all the presents were out in the front room. Some were from "Santa", some from family and friends. And my folks would eat the cookies we left out for his visit before we got back.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And I tried to to the same with my kids.
There were no presents under the tree on Christmas eve. Everything would just magically be there in the morning.
It was magical - both as a child and as "santa".
immoderate
(20,885 posts)No Santa Clause!
--imm
cbayer
(146,218 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)I remember as a very young child actually believing that i saw santa out my window one christmas eve. It was such a wonderful and positive experience for me and remains something I hope I never forget.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I stayed up and looked for Santa. We opened presents on Christmas Eve, so I only had to stay up for an hour or two. I never saw Santa, but my family said he came. That's when I decided there was no Santa.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and I don't' remember it as a sad experience.
But I do remember believing and I remember it fondly.
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I was just suspicious, so I checked it out. I didn't tell my parents, and I had a great Christmas.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I probably said something like "I'm not buying this whole Santa thing", and my parents probably said, "That's cool, but don't tell your little sister and brother yet".
That way it was my shared secret with the grown ups.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Oh wait...
edhopper
(33,576 posts)at Hercules, bigfoot, Jesus and other fantasy figures.
As fun stories that aren't real, though the Jesus one gets a little grim towards the end.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Santa Claus really has nothing to do with religion. It's just a fun, fantasy story that families perpetuate until it no longer makes sense to do so.
You could see the Jesus story as grim or liberating. It's all how it is taught to you, I guess.
if they could only treat that other myth about Jesus the same way. A mere fantasy story, like Aesop.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The fact that you find them equivalent explains why you have so much trouble understanding others that have religious beliefs.
That's your issue, not theirs.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)it just happened to be a thought experiment of this thread.
But I don't see a difference between the Jesus myth and the stories of Noah or Moses or Jupiter or the Mahabharata or Gilgamesh or the Angel Moroni or the Thetans.
Do you?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Who am I, or you, to judge which are important and which are not?
Who am I, or you, to ridicule those that believe in them or draw meaning from them?
As long as they are not used to harm others, what does it matter?
I think we would all be better off if we gave a great big hug to those that see the world differently.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Says the person who admitted laughing at the Book of Mormon for an entire day while driving through Utah.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)care more about what might be true, what might be fact.
Some see the advancement of modern science as unhinging the shackles of the ancients myths and seeking some objective truth based on evidence and fact. Others see that as long it doesn't produce what they define as "harm' it doesn't matter what the veracity of a belief is.
Different ways to look at it I guess.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)is any possibility that there might actually be evidence. When there is not, as is the case with religion, then "caring" about truth is really only a means of somehow intellectually elevating oneself above others. Actually it's meaningless.
I maintain that religious beliefs are not inconstant with endorsing scientific advancements. Certainly some beliefs have been dismissed by scientific findings, but every door science opens reveals even more closed ones.
Different is fine, as long as one doesn't take the position that they are right (superior) and others are wrong.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)Some can separate the two. But you really don't think there is a long, long history of religious beliefs impairing, and even stopping scientific advancement. And that it goes on today.
"Some beliefs"? Which ones am I allowed to point out are irrational and implausible and which ones do I have to leave alone?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And I am very aware that it remains a problem in some areas today.
But many, many scientists are also religious and they seem to do just fine with embracing both.
You can call anything you want irrational, but without any data showing they are wrong, you are just making an insubstantial attack. Now, if you want to make a case for implausibility, that's another topic. That, of course, leaves the door open and does not set you up as having the "truth".
edhopper
(33,576 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)No evidence for either one, both are made up stories with no objective, measurable evidence to support them...
cbayer
(146,218 posts)You've got it bad, I can see that.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Ok
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And it doesn't jive with yours.
You don't see any difference. That explains why your understanding of religion and religious belief is very simplistic and shallow.
I think it makes some people feel superior to make equivalent comparisons between god and things like the easter bunny or santa or the tooth fairy.
But it actually makes them appear very limited in their ability to understand complex notions.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Santa makes an early December run. He leaves the presents under a white tree decorated with blue dreidls, stars of David, and other Jewish symbols.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Santa is pretty secular.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)Some families play Christmas on a secular plane. Santa is actually a Pagan character. Some families even have a "Hanukkah Bush," that plays a part that they make up.
Hanukkah is, or was, a minor holiday. The gifts, or prizes were usually pennies, candies and dreidles.
--imm
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I know that hanukkah is not a major holiday but has taken on some importance due to it coinciding to some extent with christmas.
As a child, I remember that we learned about hannukah, but we never learned about the big jewish holidays.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Stay classy.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Some people are pretty good at it.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)With only 50+ replies?
Here's effective flamebait
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218146632
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)get with the program.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)But then, they consider hidden posts to be a sign of oppression, not disruption.
Poor things.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)That is not to say the hides could not be debated but I think their arguments are a stretch.
rug
(82,333 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)Did you not mean for this to be flame bait? You seem to object to it being called that.
SecularMotion
(7,981 posts)on how someone who doesn't share the same religious beliefs could rightfully consider them to be delusions.
I think the thread took a bad turn at this comment
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=146865
cbayer
(146,218 posts)People who equate religious beliefs with delusions are abhorrent. They express a two pronged bigotry that is inexcusable. It is not something someone would expect to see on a liberal/progressive site, but there are those who continue to maintain this and post about it as if it were completely acceptable.
The thread took a bad turn when it was posted. Honestly, I don't think you even read what you post most of the time. If you did, you might participate once in awhile.
So what is your opinion on this piece? Did you think it is a good piece of work that makes a valid point? Do you agree that people with religious beliefs have a psychiatry disorder?
edhopper
(33,576 posts)There is a man who lives at the New york.
He lives there with his bunch of wives.
During the year talks to a white salamander.
Then, he talks to an Angel named Moroni
He gets a golden tablet.
He transcribes it but it is nonsense hieroglyphics.
He tells stories of Jesus in America and heaven on other planets.
He then convinces a a lot of people that his story is true.
They leave and move across country and find another leader.
He brings sea gulls inland to save their crops and this is proclaimed a miracle.
Millions of people believe in this and they control an entire State.
This, of course, is the story of Mormons.
But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.
What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.
Is that better for everyone?
okasha
(11,573 posts)I do not believe for a moment that my Mormon friend is delusional. Her beliefs are different from mine. I don't have a problem with this. It mystifies me that some folk are deeply interested in other people's religious opinions. It seems no different from being deeply concerned about other people's sex lives. Not my business, or yours.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)is a major influence on what they do and the agenda they support.
The Mormon Church has had a negative effect on the politics of this country. They have encouraged polygamy and been a bastion of racism, and it all stemmed from their religion.
So you really shouldn't be surprised some people think beliefs, especially those that could be considered more ludicrous, would be of concern.
rug
(82,333 posts)Entirely different things. That's sloppy.
edhopper
(33,576 posts)From their beliefs in things that aren't real.
Not different at all and why being indifferent to beliefs isn't always a good thing.
Do you think all the anti-abortion, anti-gay and anti evolutions laws passed have nothing to do with religious belief?
Is that your position then?
rug
(82,333 posts)If they were causal, every religious person would be politically conservative and no stheist would be conservative.
Is that your position then?
edhopper
(33,576 posts)That you see it as completely private, like their sex lives.
Do you feel that way about all beliefs, even those that lead to the laws I listed?
Are you saying you think antiabortion laws are not mainly motivated by religious beliefs?
rug
(82,333 posts)Fortunately this is a short subthread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=147084
That's a poor habit in this Group, reshaping others' words.
But if I did have that position, I wouldn't have responded to you, now would I?
edhopper
(33,576 posts)on my tablet the response tree isn't as clear on what is a reply to which. And I have replied to different post that I thought I was at times.
I don't really care whether you respond or not, do I?
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,576 posts)You do understand what a rhetorical question is, don't you? (also rhetorical)
rug
(82,333 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)Keep trying.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Quit pretending this isn't a deadly valid and real political issue. People keep a firewall between their faith and their politics, and I go away, and stop posting here in this subforum.
As to 'delusional', everyone is capable of them. I daresay there are things that I believe to be true, that simply aren't. Therefore, I prefer the term 'laboring under a delusion'.
Delusional carries baggage, mostly negative, such as being possibly prone to it, or worse, the clinical associated meaning. Which is not what I mean when I use that term in reference to people who happen to ascribe to one or another religion.
Terms like 'third times the charm' (gambler's fallacy) is a good example of laboring under a delusion, with real world consequences.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Do you think all mormons should be treated for psychiatric disorders?
Bad example.
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)I would think you were brought up by or converted into a religion that you believed strongly in. I won't believe in it myself, but I wouldn't think you were delusional. Now if you said that you believed your 14 year old daughter needed to be married off to the prophet, I might call DCS to look into any potential criminal activity.
I have a friend who suffers delusions and hallucinations. She is diagnosed with a severe mental disorder and takes strong anti-psychotic medications to battle this. She doesn't deserve to be mocked in this way.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This double edged bigotry is sickening. The only solace is that it says much more about those that hold these beliefs than it does about those they are attacking.
Hope your friend is able to find and get what she needs to stay healthy. These kinds of disorders can be unspeakably tortuous. Those who mock them are very small minds indeed.
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)of lithium and other drugs. It keeps the hallucinations at bay, though it's taken a toll on her physical health. (She sleeps an inordinate amount of time and has gained a significant amount of weight.) But her mental health is stabilized, and that's the most important thing to tackle.
It is true that it says more about the people spouting this stuff. I think they look like jerks.
Irritating people on message boards has been a sport going on 20+ years for some. Gosh, those AOL message boards in 1994 look positively archaic.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)they are still problematic in so many ways.
There are people who would walk through fire to get these meds, that is how horrible their illnesses are.
I am glad that your friend is stable and I hope she finds a combination with reduced side effects.
You are right about message boards. I think the cloak of anonymity has permitted people to reveal the worst sides of themselves at times.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)because it is so true
Tikki
(14,557 posts)but there are the reaganites, the religion of today, that preaches greed is god...good...whatever.
HYPOCRISY RULES
Tikki
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Turns out Safari is a shitty browser. vOv