Under conservative assault, Vatican backtracks on gay comments

[trotsky]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/world/vatican-backtrack-gays/index.html

Rome (CNN) -- Under furious assault from conservative Catholics, the Vatican backtracked Tuesday on its surprisingly positive assessment of gays and same-sex relationships.

...

The statement, an interim report from a closely watched meeting of Catholic clergy here, was widely praised by liberals. It is believed to be the first time the Vatican has said anything positive about gay relationships.

...

In response to such reactions, the Vatican backtracked a bit Tuesday. In a statement, it said the report on gays and lesbians was a "working document," not the final word from Rome.

The Vatican also said that it wanted to welcome gays and lesbians in the church, but not create "the impression of a positive evaluation" of same-sex relationships, or, for that matter, of unmarried couples who live together.

A huge change. A fundamental shift. Uh huh. This global organization has brought pain, humiliation, and guilt into the lives of millions for the mere fact of who they are. Let me know when they truly accept all human beings.

[tk2kewl]

1. that didn't take long

i hadn't put much stock in the original announcement anyway

[trotsky]

6. There are some who desperately WANT to see change...

and they're going to read into it what they want. That's exactly what the Vatican wanted.

Meanwhile, nothing OFFICIALLY changes, so they can placate the conservatives (and the VAST majority of Catholics across the globe, who oppose homosexuality).

Win-win for the Vatican. It was a PR stunt and that's all. And for pointing that out - for not getting suckered - those of us who weren't fooled are portrayed as the enemy, and not the organization that officially teaches homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered."

Go figure.

[skepticscott]

10. And what's pathetic is

that the same people swallow the same shit, hook, line and sinker...EVERY TIME. And get their back up if anyone tries to disabuse them of their delusions about change in the RCC.

[beam me up scottie]

19. "That's exactly what the Vatican wanted."

Not to mention the apologists on DU.

Those critical of Vatican policies are bigots, the actual oppressors are the real victims.

[Starboard Tack]

56. Then we must all be bigots, as everyone here is critical of Vatican policies.

Actually, of course, that doesn't make us bigots, as you well know. The bigots are those who associate those policies with everyone who identifies as a Catholic. That's what bigotry is, broad brushing.

You like to twist the truth to suit your agenda, I notice.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Ok - who the fuck here is doing that?

The bigots are those who associate those policies with everyone who identifies as a Catholic

Oh right NOBODY IS. Unbelievable.

[beam me up scottie]

66. ST called us bigots and compared us to pedophiles because we criticize the Church in this forum.

Every time one of us calls the Pope out for his hypocrisy we're accused of anti-Catholic bigotry.

His opinions on the Vatican's misogynistic homophobic policies and why we're wrong to call them what they are:


"All said and done, it is a problem for Catholics to deal with. I fail to see how it affects the rest of us, especially the non-religious. We atheists should be more concerned about confronting the anti-theist bigots who use religious intolerance to spread their own toxic views. We need to clean our own house and leave the Catholics to clean theirs."


"I have little to no interest in Catholic policies or "power"
They don't affect me. I am not a Catholic. How do they affect you? Right, they don't. You and your little group just troll them to find fodder for your anti-theist propaganda."


"The Vatican doesn't make policies or enact laws for other countries. I guess you haven't traveled much."


"If the Pope were trying to impose rules on non Catholics, I would be as outraged as anyone else, but he isn't."


"And this has what to do with the RCC?
Why would any couple want to marry in a church that doesn't accept them? Makes no sense.
You really look for extreme situations to provide fodder for your hatred of religion. How about if I wanted to marry my bicycle, or my hamster and some church opposed performing the ceremony, would you be there, fighting for my rights?

I'm sorry, but religious rights and gay rights are not the same thing. I support both. Seems like you only support one. I know many gay couples, some who married in church and some at town hall and some couldn't care less about the institution of marriage.

I think your views are self centered. You want the world to adapt to your values, like the vegan who wants everyone to quit eating meat. What a boring world that would be."



Yes, we're the bigots here.

[rug]

2. Here's what you cut out.

"I actually don't think this is as much of a backtrack as we usually see!" said Marianne Duddy-Burke, head of the gay rights group Dignity USA.

"I think that response to this report was swift and intense, and I'm sure many bishops want to be sure people aren't reading more into it than is there," she continued. "However, it is undeniable that there has never been any Vatican document that made positive, respectful statements about same-sex relationships, so that is an undeniable breakthrough."

Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry, echoed that sentiment.

"Regardless of the fact that this is a working document, it is still significant in that it reveals a strong current of affirmative attitudes at high levels in the church towards lesbians and gay people," he said.

One might almost think you don't want to see change.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Dignity USA is a Catholic LGBT Group.

Their primary goal is to be fully accepted by the Catholic Church. Nothing wrong with that, in fact they have had my support for many years. However, I thought that it would be good to let people know that Dignity is not 'a gay rights group' but a Catholic specific LGBT organization. So is New Ways Ministry. Since your goal is not to leave anything out.

[rug]

31. They've been pushed out by the hierarchy for decades, to be replaced by Courage USA.

Your view of them as panderers to bishops is belied by their history.

Their focus is people who are gay and Catholic, not gay or Catholic. And they have been fighting for a reconciliation of doctrine and sexuality for forty decades.

There, now it's the complete story.

[theHandpuppet]

34. Courage USA is a Catholic LGBT group requiring chastity, does it not?

Any group that promotes the idea that gay is okay as long as you don't have sex is just too bizarre. Not to mention insulting.

[rug]

41. Yes and it's the one recognized by the USCCB. Dignity USA was thrown out of church facilities.

[theHandpuppet]

42. Didn't know about Dignity being tossed out

What was the reason for that?

[rug]

43. Here:

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/13/nyregion/brooklyn-bishop-limits-church-use-by-homosexuals.html

These ejections were not limited to Brooklyn.

You can browse Dignity's history here.

https://www.dignityusa.org/history

[Cartoonist]

15. This is what you missed

Regardless of the fact that this is a working document.
-
Let me know when they're done working.

[rug]

32. Expect it in the spring.

[Gelliebeans]

3. My kid just texted to let me know

About this, that didn't take them long!

[Arugula Latte]

4. ..

[global1]

5. I Thought We Were All Made In "HIS Image And Likeness"......

the Church needs to change their ways on gays and same-sex relationships - if they want to be credible.

[Act_of_Reparation]

7. Same refrain, over and over and over again

The Pope makes a generic throwaway statement.

The Francophiles declare it a great step forward.

The Vatican steps in to clarify that have not, in fact, made any changes to doctrine at all, and have no intention of making changes to doctrine.

The Francophiles promptly ignore what the Vactican has to say.

That's the definition of "cautiously optimistic". Duh.

[skepticscott]

8. Guess that glass

ain't as half-full as they thought down at the yacht club.

But no doubt some poor souls here will consider this progress too.

[Starboard Tack]

16. See what I mean by your actions?

You can't make a simple post without trying to smear fellow members. What is with you? Haven't you marginalized yourself enough of late?

There is progress in the very fact that the subject is being discussed. Slow progress, but as stated it is a "working document".

[skepticscott]

23. Yes, I know that in your clan

having it pointed out that you're wrong and misguided (as you were in this case, fawning over this as a "glass half full", when it's actually homophobic bigotry under a PR blanket) counts as a "smear". Or as "bullying", "harassment", "personal attacks" or "stalking". I get it. But snark and condescension shouldn't expect to be met with conciliation when it's so consistently a fail.

And you sure do seem obsessed with someone you consider "marginalized" (not that being marginalized by you means a ratfuck). If I were really so "marginal" you wouldn't be so determined to challenge and discredit what I say.

[Starboard Tack]

33. I don't challenge and discredit what you say

I challenge your toxic attitude toward me and other members. As I have pointed out to you in the past, I don't marginalize you. You do that all by yourself. I would like to see you behave as a rational adult and rejoin the conversation. That won't happen as long as all you care about is insulting others.
I'm sorry you equate having positive outlook on life as "fawning". Nowhere have a lauded the RCC's position on anything. I recognize the relevance of Francis' efforts to reach out to the gay community and wish him and them the best in that endeavor. My belief in humanity keeps my cup full, in spite of the assholes who would like to empty that cup.
I wish you well.

[beam me up scottie]

35. You once eqated support for same sex marriage to your wanting to marry your hamster.

So I'd skip the lectures about insulting behaviour if I were you.

[Starboard Tack]

36. No I didn't equate anything. That was your imagination.

First of all, I don't have a hamster, but if you wanted to marry your hamster, I would not object. That is not equating anything to "same sex marriage".
There have been people who have married themselves. Does that count as same sex? Because I don't discriminate does not equate with any phobia on my part. I am an advocate of freedom and tolerance, as long as nobody is hurt and there is mutual and competent consent.

I married myself
Finding the right person to make a commitment to can take years, but it turned out that Grace Gelder had known her perfect partner all her life.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/oct/04/i-married-myself-wedding

[beam me up scottie]

37. Right.

Keep digging.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. For those who don't understand how awful Starboard Tack has been on this subject:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124627

That's the quick summary of his regurgitation of hateful memes on same-sex marriage (marriage to dogs, hamsters, bicycles ... all the classics are there) before a jury thankfully hide one. That's just one thread, of course; there could be a lot more out there, but there's only so much muck one can wallow in before needed a shower.

[Starboard Tack]

55. Still reduced to the smear campaign I see. Sad.

Always thought you had some integrity. Guess I was wrong.

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. It's integrity that forces me to point out your posts

You were trying to deny the hamster stuff.

[Starboard Tack]

60. Right, of course you were. Your integrity is on a par with your sincerity.

You know damn well that the accusation is pure bullshit and the exact opposite of what I meant or what I stand for or who I am. While you may have convinced a few that this is a good way to attack me for my tolerance and my refusal to join the gang of bullies who try to dominate this group, all you have succeeded in doing is lowering yourself to their level.
You cashed in a shitload of gold stamps on this. Shame on you Muriel.

[Warren Stupidity]

61. "You cashed in a shitload of gold stamps on this".

I didn't know that gold stamps were being handed out. That could change my entire perspective.

[Starboard Tack]

64. You wouldn't Warren. Sorry, but they only get handed out to those who earn them.

Muriel used to demonstrate a certain integrity. Seems like he cashed it in for some fist bumps from your heroes.

But you will catch on eventually. I still have faith in you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. When have you ever given the impression you don't stand for what you wrote then?

That list of posts is par for the course for you. I have no idea why you think that repeated posts like that can be disowned. I have not seen tolerance from you. What you do in this group is attack atheists.

[Starboard Tack]

63. Bullshit! Show me one post where I attack atheists or atheism.

I have been an atheist for over 50 years. Why would I attack myself? I challenge some individuals and their role models for attempting to co-opt the atheist position and present themselves as spokesmen for us all. Atheism is about non-belief. It is not about attacking believers for their beliefs. Because challenge people who behave like assholes, has nothing to do with their beliefs or their atheism.

Maybe you see all intolerant atheists as being OK. I'm OK with their atheism, but not with their intolerance.

You are the expert at searching posts around here. So why don't you back up your accusation and show us a post where I attack anyone for his/her atheism. See how you like to twist things, Muriel?

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. First result for a search for "Starboard Tack" "atheists"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218149852

Hidden, of course.

2nd: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=137609
3rd: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=43118

You attack atheists here.

[beam me up scottie]

68. Nice poll, he was in rare form that day.

What a wonderful example of ST's tolerance.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. oops.

[rug]

70. The hell he did.

None of those posts attack atheists as a group or atheism as an opinion.

What he does do, accurately, is point out that some people who are atheists are assholes, some are homphobes, some are sexist, some are libertarians and some are downright reactionary.

The only one dishonestly lumping atheists into a group is you. Oh, and your pilot fish.

[Starboard Tack]

73. Care to quote me where I attack atheists in any of these posts.

#1. I post a poll to demonstrate exactly the opposite of what you are accusing me, be someone managed to catch the low fruit on jury duty by distorting my intentions. Nice try, Muriel.

#2.

"Very true, though there is no shortage of homophobia among atheists. Bigotry is definitely reinforced by certain fundamentalist beliefs, but it is not exclusive to believers."

As I said, atheists are not immune to "homophobia". I guess, in your mind, that makes me both homophobic and anti atheist.

#3.

"No, just some atheists suck. The whiners, intolerants, exclusionists, haters, mockers, extremists. The rest of us don't. We enjoy life, along with our christian and muslim and jewish brothers and sisters. Enjoy your bike ride."

Hopefully you understand the meaning of the word "SOME". Again, nice try, Muriel.

So, is that all you got Muriel? Really? Keep digging. I'm sure you'll bury one of us eventually.
I have watched you over the years and I honestly developed a certain respect for you. I didn't always agree with you, but you demonstrated both intelligence and maturity in your posts, but more than anything, your integrity stood out. We can honestly agree and disagree on all kinds of things, but I never thought you would stoop to the level of the bottom feeders who try to distort every post that doesn't fit their agenda of intolerance. I understand if you have a personal issue with me, but have the decency to address that honestly, either here or by PM. But quit accusing me of bogus acts of aggression against atheists. I don't judge anyone by their religious beliefs, or lack thereof. Period.
We can honestly disagree about how militant we should be, as atheists, and I'm ok with all kinds of militant atheism, but not when it becomes as bigoted as that which it see disappear. There are good conversations to be had, but nobody seems to want them. Too busy slinging mud hoping it might stick.
Any time you want to talk, you let me know.

[obxhead]

9. Don't ask don't tell, but we would love to have your donations.

[trotsky]

11. And you my friend have hit the nail on the head.

Money talks.

[dhill926]

13. exactly….

don't forget the donation box on your way to hell….

[Bluenorthwest]

12. This is why the headlines bellowing about amazing shifts and changes are so offensive.

All the first document said was that they wanted to stop sounding so bigoted, they said they would keep the same teachings and rules but just try to make it sound less hateful. That's all it was. And that was too much for the rank and file.
It's just wrong that 'believers' indulge themselves with rhetoric about big changes that are not made, were never promised and which really wouldn't make up for the years of abuse anyway.

[theHandpuppet]

30. Not that the media is interested in the truth

Google the terms NOM - Cordileone - Princeton Group for the real scoop that's been largely ignored.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Proving once again that this is nothing more than a pr campaign

The Vatican loses support and money every time they come off as haters so they're softening the delivery but not changing the message.

I wish the apologists would stop insulting our intelligence by hailing the new found liberalism of the Catholic Church.

The carefully prepared public releases and resulting group orgasms are sickening.

[trotsky]

18. I gotta hand it to the Vatican. They are an impressive PR machine.

Everything is happening about as perfectly as it can. They "release" this statement indicating a "seismic shift" - which excites hopeful liberals, then quickly walk it back to calm down the conservatives.

The conservatives are happy because, well, NOTHING IS ACTUALLY FUCKING CHANGING.

The liberals are happy because they think a crack has been opened. They read into it what they want desperately to believe, that a new era is coming. And as an ADDED BONUS which indicates just how good the Vatican is at this: they go and attack their fellow liberals who are trying to point out that NOTHING IS FUCKING CHANGING.

Really, really impressive. Almost like they have 2000 years of experience pulling the wool over people's eyes.

[beam me up scottie]

22. Their ex-FOX News strategist really earned his paycheck.

By replacing the equally conservative but much more abrasive Ratzinger with the Wilford Brimley of Catholicism, their re-brand has been hugely successful.

[edhopper]

20. As I said in the other thread

"We welcome gay people, as long as they refrain from anything Gay".

[trotsky]

21. A seismic shift! A bold step! n/t

[skepticscott]

25. A glass half full!

At least, for the deluded down at the yacht club.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. If they wanted to be welcoming, they'd withdraw all involvement in same-sex marriage court cases

This one they filed last month, for instance: http://www.arkansas-catholic.org/news/article/3999/Bishop-files-brief-to-support-traditional-marriage

They'd stop involving themselves with laws about homosexuality all over the world. I expect they'll try a bit of slick PR in North America and Europe to look a bit more "gay-friendly", while still being enthusiastically homophobic in the developing world.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Exactly. No one expects them to endorse marriage equality.

But continuing to portray it as a threat to families in need of "protection" from gay rights advocates is just more hate speech.

Lipstick on a pig.

[theHandpuppet]

27. You mean like this?

http://www.usccb.org/news/2014/14-165.cfm
USCCB Chairman Responds to U.S. Court of Appeals Decision
October 8, 2014

WASHINGTON—Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone of San Francisco, chairman of the U.S. bishops’ Subcommittee for the Promotion and Defense of Marriage, said that the decision on October 7 by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit striking down marriage laws in Nevada and Idaho was “astonishingly dismissive” of the rights of children and detrimental to the democratic process.

Archbishop Cordileone said, “In the words of Pope Francis – ‘we must reaffirm the right of children to grow up in a family with a father and a mother.’ When striking down the marriage laws of Nevada and Idaho that were approved by the direct vote of large majorities, the Court of Appeals undercut democracy and was astonishingly dismissive of the rights of children as merely being a ‘justification for discrimination.’” The Archbishop continued, “Authentic marriage as the union of one man and one woman is the only institution that unites a man and a woman with each other and with any child who comes from their union. It is rather remarkable that the Court of Appeals was so contemptuous of this fundamental and obvious truth.”

Archbishop Cordileone concluded, “The Church will never cease proclaiming the truth about the human person, created male and female, and the gift of marriage. We will continue to profess these truths with humility but without apology, and we call on the faithful to continue their efforts in this regard.”

[beam me up scottie]

28. Yes, and how revolting.

Their carefully chosen language cultivates homophobia and the continued persecution of gays is a direct result.

[Heddi]

38. Oh pshaw. A regular fabric floor covering has told us numerous times

that the RCC is only interested in gay marriage when it comes to what kinds of marriages they will bless through the church, NOT laws to stop gay marriage. SO STOP SAYING THAT, YOU WITH YOUR LYING ATHEIST LINKS OF SIN

[beam me up scottie]

39. LMAO!

"YOUR LYING ATHEIST LINKS OF SIN"





Yep, as I understand it, the Catholic Church does nothing to infringe upon the rights of other people. They just don't want Catholics to marry gay people or have abortions. So if you want to do either of those things don't be a Catholic.

It's simple.

[Heddi]

40. No nono. CLOSE YOUR LYING EARS AND LISTEN TO ME

The Catholic Church (or RCC as you so dismissively call it) is only interested in CATHOLICS. they have NO INFLUENCE outside of church. And have you actually SEEN a Catholic church? I don't believe you if you say you do because they're quite wee and hard to find. They have memberships of like, 4 people.

Their influence is confined to the 4 elderly ladies who are WELL beyond marrying and child-bearing years to have any concern with what the nasty-bits of one person do in conjunction of the hoo-hoo's, wee-wee's, coochie's, or wing-wangs of another (we won't get into the sinful combinations of boo-boo's, hoo-ha's, ugly dumplin's, and meat flutes. That's just too vulgar for a family website). These ladies are interested in lace crochet and other fibre arts. THEY DON"T CARE ABOUT A VAGINA HOLE.

so stop saying that.

[beam me up scottie]

44. Yes, it is the evul athiessssssssssssssssssts who care about vaginas.

Who bumps them where and with whom, who should be forced to push a baby out of one, which ones are being used for sport instead of production, etc.

[Heddi]

45. Now you're getting it

Study up for our next lesson:

It's not religion that makes people do things. It's never religion unless they're doing a good thing. If they're doing a bad thing, it's political. Or cultural. Or it happened 1000 years ago when really 450 years ago but it's the same thing and you could use an introduction to math course.

[trotsky]

54. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!

Thank you Heddi!

[rug]

46. You do realize Heddi derives from Old German for strife.

Which of course is a synonym for disruption.

If you don't understand what actually is posted, don't make things up, CAPS or not.

[Heddi]

47. You do realize that rugs are things that lie

on the floor, right?

My user name isn't my real name. Duh. It's a nickname given to me by an old roommate's child who couldn't pronounce my Christian name. But its' fitting, as my life has been full of strife. I was born with a plastic spork in my mouth. My childhood trauma should have made me a teenage runaway/prostitute/junkie/teenage mother/high school drop-out/dead by 21. But I rose above all that and became the awesome person I am. Thanks for pointing out that from strive can come positivity. :cheers:

But that doesn't matter, as long as you can get your digs in. Way to raise the level of discourse! :cheers:

[rug]

48. What coincidence, it's not mine either.

Speaking of digs, if you post faux flippant shit like this "A regular fabric floor covering has told us numerous times . . . ." don't whine about digs.

As to your internet life story, didn't ask, don't care.

[Heddi]

49. If you see yourself in that statement

then have at it. Just like you and your buds constantly tell the Atheists and Agnostics who point out the flamebait "atheists are all nasty poopy heads who hate women and other people and oh yeah, DAWKINS SAID A NASTY THING". If the thread resonates with you, ask yourself why---that's what we're told, at any rate.

No need to get defensive. I didn't call you out. If you think I'm talking about you, ask yourself why you see yourself in that statement.

As far as my life story goes--I know you didn't ask. You tried to insult me by linking a 20+ year old nickname to some disparaging character flaw. I turned that "flaw" around to a positive. I'm sorry that it didn't work out as nicely as you hoped it would.

[rug]

50. Gee, what other DU poster has a name that fits?

You wear coy about as well as Palin wears intelligence.

Now before you go off on "buds", you don't get away that easy.

Finish your whine about an alleged insult first. While you do that I'll check the member list to see who else you could have intended to insult.

[Heddi]

51. wat?

[rug]

52. .

[Starboard Tack]

57. Yeah, you are truly awesome Heddi!

Your level of discourse is truly inspiring.

[beam me up scottie]

67. Yes she is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123480

[theHandpuppet]

29. Or this one

FORT WORTH (CBSDFW.COM/AP) – Texas Roman Catholic Bishops, in conjunction with the U.S. Catholic Conference of Bishops, have thrown their legal support behind the effort to reinstate the same sex marriage ban in Texas....
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/08/05/texas-catholic-bishops-support-same-sex-marriage-appeal/

[theHandpuppet]

71. How an incorrect translation of the synod report created chaos

By Catholic News Agency's Vatican Observer, Andrea Gagliarducci
How an incorrect translation of the synod report created chaos

Vatican City, Oct 15, 2014 / 11:17 am (CNA/EWTN News).- An incorrect translation into English of the original midterm report of the Synod on the Family may have spurred controversial interpretations of the document itself...

...The point of controversy occurs at paragraph 50 of the relatio. The Italian original, after praising the gifts and talents homosexuals may give to the Christian community, asked: “le nostre comunità sono in grado di esserlo accettando e valutando il loro orientamento sessuale, senza compromettere la dottrina cattolica su famiglia e matrimonio?”

In the English translation provided by the Vatican, this is rendered as: “Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?”

The key word “valutando,” which has sparked controversy within the Church, was translated by the Vatican as “valuing.”

Italian's “valutando” in fact means “evaluating,” and in this context would be better translated with “weighing” or “considering.”

The English translation, in contrast, suggests a valuing of the homosexual orientation, which could at least create confusion to those who are faithful to the teaching of the Church....

MORE at http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/how-an-incorrect-translation-of-the-synod-report-created-chaos-24767/

[trotsky]

72. Interesting.

Thanks for that!

[theHandpuppet]

74. In the rush to get out the "news" there was a lot of sloppy reporting

According to another article, the public may or may not ever see the final version of the document.
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/synods-indicator-swings-toward-a-rewrite-of-midterm-relatio-12405/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+catholicnewsagency%2Fdailynews-vatican+(CNA+Daily+News+-+Vatican)