Religion
Related: About this forumCatholic bishops reject welcome to gays in sign of split
Cross posted from muriel_volestrangler's post in LBN: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014922137
Catholic bishops rejected a landmark change Saturday in the rigid stance on gays and divorcees, revealing enormous gaps within the church at the end of a two-week meeting.
The synod's final statement failed to include remarkably conciliatory language revealed a week ago that would have welcomed the "gifts and qualities" of gay Catholics and called on pastors to "avoid any language or behavior" that could discriminate against divorced Catholics.
While the language on gays had been softened during discussion in the meeting's last days, the final document failed to receive the two-thirds majority vote it needed. The bishops did, however, praise conjugal love love within the bounds of traditional marriage calling it "one of the most beautiful of all miracles and the most common."
Still, the failure to reach a consensus on broader-reaching language, is a failure for the more tolerant tone Pope Francis has struck since taking the role of pontiff more than a year ago. Last year, the pope made waves when, in response to a question about whether gays could be good Christians, he asked, "Who am I to judge?"
Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/18/bishops-scrap-welcome-to-gays/17502055/
Also: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29677779
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Latest-News-Wires/2014/1018/Division-in-church-clear-as-Catholic-bishops-scrap-welcome-to-gays
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I hope the pope does not let up.
okasha
(11,573 posts)together with some discreet "evolutions in thinking," reassignments and retirements before the next meeting a year from now. Francis has the people in the pews behind him , and the opposition has now identified itself publicly.
I'm laying in a strategic supply of popcorn as of now.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)between the bishops, anyway. The synod confirmed the Humanae Vitae approach of "natural methods" and "openness to life" in sex at all times. There a huge split between the bishops and the European and North American (at the very least) church members, of course.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)edhopper
(33,579 posts)turned into a minor little tremor.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)turned out to be flatulence.
But hey, Francis gets to look like the Lone Ranger and apologists will use the initial press release to show how loving and tolerant of LBGT people he is.
The Vatican chose him because it knows it needs to change it's image, not because they wanted to change anything else.
But I'm sure if we'd just wait a just a little bit longer everything will be different.
pinto
(106,886 posts)However you choose. We need a broad array of voices in support of an inclusive, diverse community.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)people who speak out unreservedly against its institutionalized bigotry are part of the solution. People who are apologists for it, not so much. I think we all know where you fall.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Who the fuck are you to say that?
When have you ever scolded DUers who constantly minimize the damage done by the Catholic Church and its policies?
Apparently atheist critics are supposed to stfu and sit down.
Nice example of the "intolerant atheist" meme, but your attempt to put me in my place is part of the problem.
Victims of the Church need our support, fuck the delicate sensibilities of people who don't want their darling du jour called out as the bigoted hypocrite he is.
pinto
(106,886 posts)I'd like to see the church get more in step with its parishioners (speaking from a US point of view, which is what I'm familiar with). Many American Catholics support reproductive rights, gender equality, equal rights for GLBT individuals. I want to support those voices.
Criticism is obviously warranted in re: the Vatican bureaucracy. My "broad array of voices" comment was meant to encourage support for rank and file Catholics who share goals common among theists, atheists, agnostics, none of the above, etc.
I had no, nor have, any intent to put you in your place. Our approaches are very different. I don't think yours is very constructive. I could have put it in that context.
And, I realize that many feel it's not worth the effort or it's unrealistic. I get that point. Sometimes I feel it's all besides the point - we're all going to live our lives as we see fit, hopefully. And at times I feel we could work to make that easier - whether from the top down or the bottom up.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I do not know what it's like to be a catholic on DU, I'm sure it must suck to see their White Knight constantly criticized. But, imo, it sucks a lot more for gay DUers to see the guy held up as some sort of poor persecuted pariah.
Francis is NOT a gay rights supporter, he is exactly the opposite, a bigoted hypocrite and politician who uses hate speech to target those who champion human rights while smiling for the camera and asking for "tolerance".
This man (because that's all he is to everyone who is not catholic) has been praised and treated like a saviour on DU since he was appointed. Gay DUers have objected to this dishonest portrayal of someone who believes they are second class human beings. Someone who wants them to stfu because they make his church look bad and his job #1 is to increase revenue. Then, when they have the nerve to voice their opinion on this supposedly progressive forum they are shouted down by his outraged fans. The backlash against them has been so swift and so vicious that some don't post about it anymore.
So, honestly, I don't give a flying fuck if you or anyone thinks my "approach" is constructive.
Is it uncomfortable for a member of DU to read bad things about someone they think is A Really Nice Guy?
Sure.
But it's hardly comparable to being persecuted because you had the misfortune to be born gay in a world dominated by religious leaders who think you suffer from a disorder and need to be kept from marrying the person you love and away from any children you would harm with your disease.
Religious leaders like those in the Vatican who unashamedly use their wealth and power to protect pedophiles and prevent gay people from having the same rights as everyone else.
You will never see me attacking catholic people on DU, what you will see is my very real and very justified outrage at DUers who think the Pope needs to be defended from angry gay people and their supporters.
I shouldn't have to worry about justifying my outrage here, Pope Francis is not a member of DU.
His intolerance of gay people makes this personal so, in my opinion, he deserves every bit of venom directed at him.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Who the fuck are you to lecture me on persecution, exclusion and intolerance? I've seen it. I've experienced it. I've lived through it - no, I've survived through it. Survived.
I make no apologies for anyone but myself. I have no White Knight I feel I should defend or shelter in any way shape or form. Not here on DU or in my life. I am exactly who I am.
To be honest, I don't give a flying fuck about your approach. And I surely don't give a damn about your shallow assessment of me or my interests.
We've probably had some similar experiences along the way. Most of us have. I don't know what else to say.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I didn't know you were gay, I still don't know if you're a catholic and I never accused you of defending anyone. Your criticism was of my approach and I responded.
I made no personal assumptions, please don't make them about me.
There is no judgment here nor will there ever be.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Thanks for the reply. Sorry if I misunderstood you.
(aside) I guess I'm a lapsed catholic, if I had to choose an option. Still have that cultural background. Part of my history.
Still disagree with your approach, though. lol, had to add that coda.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Left the church as a child and never looked back. I was raised without religion -not as an atheist, just without instruction- so I have no reference point when it comes to understanding beliefs. I've been in a constant wtf state about religious fundamentalism for as long as I can remember. I guess it seems naive to wonder why religious people would go to such extremes to force other people to live by their rules.
We're fine, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you as well.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)Pointing out the uncomfortable truths in the situation isn't a part of the problem, it's a step towards a solution. The next step is for Catholics themselves to admit these truths and either force change or move to a more enlightened church.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Any DUer who thinks it's more important to defend religion from its critics than to acknowledge its culpability should reconsider their priorities.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)We're on a liberal website populated by a lot of progressives, so I have to wonder where people's priorities are when they call us out as part of the problem. Why should religion not be bound by progressive policies? Why does it get a free pass?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I've been assured that that's just not the case.
Most strenuously.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)changed. The "voices for change" from within the RCC community have been remarkably ineffective convincing the old men who rule within the RCC to change ANYTHING. For example birth control.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)and that the church doesn't reveal SHIT about the universe or our place in it.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Father Tom Doyle (who lost his job because he criticized the Church) had this to say about Crimen solicitationis:
Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'
He could do that.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5392338.stm
What has this new pope really done to change anything?
How much longer are we supposed to wait before the Church decides to start treating LGBT people like human beings?
Cue the hey the poor guy just got there, whaddayawant, give him time, blah blah blah apologists...
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #7)
Post removed
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)What other policies can the guy change and won't?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)But he WILL change everything!
rug
(82,333 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)sure.
Why should they be treated differently than heterosexual apologists?
rug
(82,333 posts)One of which was "disgusting".
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)There's nothing wrong with calling gay apologists of homophobic policies "disgusting".
I feel the same way about gay republicans who support opponents of same sex marriage.
rug
(82,333 posts)As was the reply you responded to.
But, since it's his words to defend, I'll simply tell you that whenever skepticscott calls any DUer, gay or straight, an apologist for homophobia, let alone a "disgusting" apologist, you'll need more than a microscope to observe any evidence of truth.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I was on an extended break from DU so unless someone specifies their orientation often I'm probably unaware of it.
It's understandable if gay catholics don't want to bash their church or its leaders, that doesn't make them apologists, imo.
pinto
(106,886 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)the truth about the Catholic Church?
If so, congratulations!! Sokath...his eyes uncovered!!
edhopper
(33,579 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)'THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS'
I may or may not tack on 'YOU LYING MOTHERFUCKERS' to the end of it. For flavor, you see.
okasha
(11,573 posts)More will follow.
I bet the Pope makes him move to Valletta, where he can live in a 16th. Century fortress with no amenities.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)VATICAN CITY, September 17, 2014 The revolution of Pope Francis in ecclesiastical governance is not losing its driving thrust. And so, as happens in every self-respecting revolution, the heads continue to roll for churchmen seen as deserving this metaphorical guillotine.
...
The next victim would in fact be the United States cardinal Raymond Leo Burke, who from being prefect of the supreme tribunal of the apostolic signatura would not be promoted - as some are fantasizing in the blogosphere - to the difficult but prestigious see of Chicago, but rather demoted to the pompous - but ecclesiastically very modest - title of cardinal patron of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, replacing the current head, Paolo Sardi, who recently turned 80.
If confirmed, Burkes exile would be even more drastic than the one inflicted on Cardinal Piacenza, who, transferred from the important congregation for the clergy to the marginal apostolic penitentiary, nevertheless remained in the leadership of a curial dicastery.
With the shakeup on the way, Burke would instead be completely removed from the curia and employed in a purely honorary position without any influence on the governance of the universal Church.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350870?eng=y
He doesn't like Burke, clearly, but it's not about this synod decision.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)head with facts.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Francis gave Burke a chance to save his butt, and he chose not to take it. This second demotion is in effect the revocation of a suspended sentence. That's why it comes instantly and very publicly on the heels of the synod report.
The folks who have been yattering that Francis is a politician should have paid more attention to their own words. He's turning out to be a very capable one .
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)"This" certainly can't mean being anti-gay, since the pope and all of his cronies are, too, and it is part of the fundamental doctrine of the RCC, which its apologists and defenders support.
Tweedy
(628 posts)The church is evolving. I agree it should be leading. Yet, evolving is surely better than actively promoting hate.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Did you get that off of an apologist website?
Calling homosexuals "disordered" is "evolving in love"?
And the Catholic Church is actively opposing the right of homosexuals to marry and adopt. You call that "love"? Seriously? And you have the nerve to parade that filth on a progressive web site?
rug
(82,333 posts)Tweedy
(628 posts)The church under pope Francis is much less hateful then before Pope Francis. Hopefully, it will continue to move toward love and away from hate.
Incidentally, I don't even know where to find an apologist website for the Catholic Church. I do know there are plenty full if hate and vitriol. I am aware how many people cannot take communion without anathema because of the church's current practices.
Despite this, hate is exhausting and accomplishes nothing.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)"The church under pope Francis is much less hateful then before Pope Francis."
Has the church suddenly withdrawn all its lawsuits against the rights of women and LGBTs? Does it support gay marriage and adoption, non-discrimination laws, reproductive rights, equality for women, et al? Has it stopped pouring millions of dollars into efforts to not only defeat these campaigns for human rights but to craft legislation that would make such discrimination legal? I consider discrimination & persecution forms of hate. Hate that causes misery, poverty, homelessness, imprisonment and even death. That's what the hate manifested in homophobia and misogyny accomplishes. I'm sure you'll find plenty of folks around here who can rationalize that, even on a supposedly progressive website. I can't. So I'm off to fight the real life misery masquerading as "evolving love".
Much of life is misery. We are born and we die. We get the 'joy' of watching those we love wither away while we are utterly helpless to do anything about it. By all means do what you can to fight injustice. Most of us fight it every day in our own way. It seems to me that is what Pope Francis is attempting now.
Hate is exhausting and unhelpful no matter who is flinging it. This pope has pleasantly surprised me. He has not surprised you, obviously. Perhaps the next synod will change your mind. Perhaps it will sour mine. Time will tell.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Nor will I be tapping my foot waiting for the next synod or in anticipation of the next salvo of misinformation and misdirection from the PR firm. The church has not in any way announced a cease fire in its war against women and gays. Don't try to paint the Pope or the church in the role of victim (or savior) here. Doesn't work with me, I can assure you. I will not tolerate nor enable institutional homophobia and misogyny. Speaking of which, I have some real life battles to attend. Have a nice day.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Ignore him and be welcome.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)You're funny.
okasha
(11,573 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You are welcome here.
okasha
(11,573 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You got me there.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)As long as you can ignore the basic human rights of women and LGBTs around the world, shouldn't be any problem at all.
Tweedy
(628 posts)The state, our government, is the protector of our basic human rights. Yet, another reason why we should vote this November. I would not want anyone's rights in the hands of any religion, no matter how loving.
Pope Francis is attempting to move a moribund, hidebound institution away from hate. Admittedly, I get a kick out of that. I also had no expectation anything like this might happen. When progress comes unexpectedly, even when it comes like a snail, it tickles me.
Perhaps this is simply a public relations change. Yet, weigh that one in your mind and savor it a moment. Just a few years ago now, gay marriage was a whip to drive scared, hateful people to the polls. In the days of DOMA's strength, nobody needed any public relations to justify hating. Now, haters need to hide, change or strain incredulity with their convolutions.
Women are still getting the sharp stick. Thank you Hobby Lobby. Yet, this is an illusion, too, I think. The haters scream louder and longer, but we will have the last laugh. Maybe, we will even be able to laugh together.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)But don't even try to divorce the church from its political machinations, ones that continue in the form of lobbying and lawsuits and money, to defeat any campaigns for the rights of women and gays. The haters don't need to hide. You can go to the website of the USCCB any day of the week to read their latest screeds and even their promise to double down on their efforts to defeat gay rights. If we have made gains it is DESPITE the continuing efforts of the church. I've spent a lifetime fighting this kind of hate and seeing people destroyed because of it. I'm not laughing.
BTW, Hobby Lobby is not an illusion. I'm sure you're familiar with Legatus.... and who underwrites The Beckett Fund.
Tweedy
(628 posts)Simply saying I don't rely on any church to protect any right. I would think your post agrees with me on that assessment.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)They just don't have to fight it. Therein lies the difference.
Tweedy
(628 posts)Churches can be just about everything. For most of my life, most churches have built their dubious power bases on messages of exclusion, creating the delusion that their followers are superior. Throughout history, it seems most religions have acted in similar fashion.
What should be very rarely is what exists.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Then you're not likely to be disappointed.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Catholic and Orthodox room. Welcome my friend!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1264
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1221
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)after half a dozen or so heads on spikes.
No doubt the scientific station in Antarctica could use a chaplain.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It would be nice if Certain Persons who frequent this group would dial back on."rebuking" liberal Catholics, too, but it'll snow in the Empty Quarter before that happens.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Today I posted in here for the first time in almost two months.
okasha
(11,573 posts)I came to DU back in 2002, and some people are still singing exactly the same three-note tune. I just scroll on past their posts now.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)It is as it is.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Tweedy
(628 posts)For years, churches supposedly based on our Lord's love, have lagged behind congregants who are attempting to love their neighbors as they love themselves. How wonderful it would be for all of us if our churches lead the way for the lamb of God again, rather than supporting the hate that tears us all down.
Response to Tweedy (Reply #27)
Post removed
rug
(82,333 posts)But you don't.
If you had a shred of decency, you'd realize the bigotry you're trying to peddle.
'
But you don't.
If you had a shred of integrity, you wouldn't hide your patent anti-Catholic hatred under the guise of gay rights advocacy.
But you don't.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)And I think perhaps you misunderstood the article. This is definitely NOT a good thing for the LGBT community or progressive Catholics.
Tweedy
(628 posts)The pope wants a change. This change will come. It won't be this week; yet, it will not take years either.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Do you have some "other way of knowing"?
Tweedy
(628 posts)From the Pope's words ("hostility to rigidity" , his public support for the views of Cardinal Kasper, his twice demotion of Cardinal Burke and his attempts at the synod, I deduce the Pope is moving the Church away from the traditionalists.
I do not claim to have some super power, aka reading the akashic record, if that is the implication of your question.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)that was love?
His statements about same sex couples and their advocates are nothing short of hate speech.
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/04/11/pope-francis-kids-must-have-moms-and-dads
Tweedy
(628 posts)edhopper
(33,579 posts)has ever listened to its flock.
It is a top down org.
Perhaps if they preach their bigoted views to empty pews in churches with empty coffers they will change what they think God wants.
Tweedy
(628 posts)There never was a synod like this before.
edhopper
(33,579 posts)Seems they are sticking with same old, same old.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Bigotry? Misogyny?
So much to choose from.
Tweedy
(628 posts)And willingness to embrace a more loving way. Goodness knows, the church has not tried anything like this before in my lifetime.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)As you can tell, there is a wide range of opinions in this group concerning Pope Francis.
Some here see some positive things and are hopeful for significant change, while others are very pessimistic and see little that would give them hope.
I tend to be on the hopeful side and agree that the church has lagged behind it's congregants. I share your wish that churches would lead the way for social justice and civil rights rather than support hate.
Welcome.
Tweedy
(628 posts)I spent time in the principal's office as a young one for informing a priest just where he could go for teaching us non- Christians went to hell, or maybe limbo. I find this pope a great improvement.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's just not a popular position with some around these parts.
There are others, though, that I agree that this pope is a great improvement.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Didn't think so.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Didn't think so.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)In the mean time, you all are welcome over here with us Episcopalians!!
rug
(82,333 posts)"Keep in mind this is not a magisterial document .the Pope asked for it to be made available to show the degree of maturity that has taken place and that which still needs to take place in discussions over the coming year," Holy See press officer Tom Rosica said on Vatican Radio.
The two-week synod has revealed a fracture line in church opinion over how to adapt traditional church teaching on human sexuality towards 21st-Century attitudes, says the BBC's David Willey in Rome.
Pope Francis had made a powerful appeal to traditionalists not to lock themselves within the letter of the law, but conservative cardinals and bishops carried the day at the end of the synod, our correspondent adds.
And, also from the LBN thread:
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/tcmassie/breaking_pope_ousts_top_vatican_judge_after_incendiary_anti_gay_comments