Religion
Related: About this forumSeeking Stars, Finding Creationism in Hawaii
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/21/science/seeking-stars-finding-creationism.html?ref=scienceThis month a group of Native Hawaiians, playing drums and chanting, blocked the road to a construction site near the top of Mauna Kea and stopped the groundbreaking ceremony for the Thirty Meter Telescope, often called T.M.T. Larger than any now on earth, it is designed to see all the way back to the first glimmers of starlight a triumph in astronomys quest to understand the origin of everything.
Interesting look at the broader view of Native American religious claims in the face of contrary facts.
In this case, since this isn't a specific sacred site, just a protest about another observatory where there are already a dozen. And their reasoning about angering the gods should not be part of a rational discussion. And Ancient claims of the Native Hawaiians need to be seen in the context that they have only been there for 1200 to 1500 years. (so any pretext about the beginning of the island must be filtered in this).
And seeing the great scientific advances this telescope can offer. I can't see siding with the Natives in this case.
I feel the same when bones are discovered that we know predate the arrival of the tribe that claims them. This is different from artifacts looted from a tribe. Then they have a legitimate claim IMO.
Hoppy
(3,595 posts)Mostly, I sympathize with native protests on disrupting ancestral sites. But I, too, don't support them on this site's use.
--- logical inconsistency on my part.
Silent3
(15,206 posts)...is certainly not restricted to the Abrahamic varieties.
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,575 posts)which science would we choose.
I suppose the circumstances would dictate a lot.
I can think of different hypotheticals for each.
rug
(82,333 posts)It could have historic, literary or cultural significance. Humans have many values, science being one of them.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)I thought you were referring to a site being investigated. Like a dig.
Finding out about the cultural and historic significance is a big part of archeology.
So my answer stays the same. Usually in cases like these some accommodation and compromise is made.
Jim__
(14,075 posts)... Native Hawaiian religion."
From a 2009 research report:
Herein lies the crux of the conflict. While Mauna Kea is undeniably a scientifically indispensable location, it is also one of the most sacred places in the universe for Native Hawaiian people. Native Hawaiians believe that supernatural forces fill the natural realm- sea, sky, and earth. These forces are personified in countless universal, individual, and family deities, who exert active control over nature and humanity (Loumala). All the land on the mountain that rises above tree line is thought to be in the realm and the temple of the Creator, or Wa Akua. In ancient Polynesian oral history, the summit is considered the meeting place of Earth Mother and Sky Father, parents of the entire human race � Mauna Kea is the birthplace of humanity, where heaven and Earth meet. In addition, its known as the burial grounds of many of the most revered members of the Hawaiian pantheon. "The burials up there are the burials of the highest-born people, the sacred ancestors," says Kealoha Pisciotta, a Native Hawaiian who is active in the fight to preserve Mauna Kea. The spiritual landscape of the summit is covered with hundreds of sacred sites and family shrines. Furthermore, Natives have been ascending Mauna Kea to gather traditional medicines, worship, and conduct ceremonies since time immemorial- and these practices continue today, in spite of the disruption of the past 40 years. In fact, the entire summit is eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places, based on its presences as a concentration of historic properties that are historically, culturally, and visually linked within the context of their setting and environment. This is important to note: while the history contained on this summit is critical to the populations spiritual, cultural, and therefore practical survival, the effort to preserve Mauna Kea is not solely motivated by a desire to reconnect with the past. The summit is still very much a living sacred location, an integral part of an existing- and ongoing- Native religion. Its importance to Native Hawaiians cannot be overstated. Said one Native man active in preservation efforts: Its our Garden of Eden, though to such an analogy defies the specificity of the place for Native Hawaiians.
History
This is the core of the conflict that has stormed for forty years. In 1959, Hawaii was made a state and shortly after that, the Bureau of Land and Natural Resources leased the land to the University of Hawaii to begin construction on some of the thirteen telescopes that dot the summit today. Rather than charging payments to the tenants, the UHIFA instead commands some use of each of the telescopes on the summit. This, along with loose land use stipulations, allowed Mauna Kea to rapidly develop into a leading observatory, and with open access to thirteen of the worlds most powerful telescopes, the UHFIA has become one of the premiere astronomy programs in the world. Its a perfectly symbiotic relationship between the UHIFA and those who operate the telescopes, but one that has left out Native and environmental voices entirely. As a result, development was rapid, sporadic, haphazard, and above all, unregulated. Lacking enforceable- or enforced- land management guidelines, the fragile natural landscape has been devastated by piles of trash, construction refuse, chemical runoff, and pollution from the observatory residents and employees. Not only was there little attempt made to preserve this ecosystem, but there has historically been no heed paid to the hundreds of sacred sites and family shrines: if they stood in the path of a telescope, they were destroyed. Even some out-of-the-way shrines were robbed and graves were arbitrarily disturbed, and Native practitioners were denied access to many sacred sites that lay within the security bounds of the telescopes.
In a 1998 report, responding to mounting public outrage, the Hawaii State Auditor issued a criticism of the University of Hawaii for their botched management of the summit. In response to this report, the University penned a new Twenty Year Master Plan which claims to reflect the community's deeply rooted concerns over the use of Mauna Kea, including respect for Hawaiian cultural beliefs, protection of environmentally sensitive habitat, recreational use of the mountain, as well as astronomy research. In reality, the Master Plan fails to provide an enforceable limit on future development: it allows for construction of three more new observatories, as well as modifications on existing facilities. Furthermore, native voices were no more than cursorily addressed in the planning process.
...
I'm not sure where you get your information, but this appears to be nonsense:
trotsky
(49,533 posts)in their present form, then using your logic we should stop stomping on their beliefs by teaching evolution.
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,575 posts)thanks for the additional info.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)*
I left the conversation grateful that in another part of the world, astronomers are standing their ground. Chad Kalepa Baybayan, a Native Hawaiian, expressed his support for their efforts last year in an essay for a local newspaper.
Our ancestors, he wrote, sought knowledge from their environment, including the stars, to guide them and to give them a greater understanding of the universe that surrounded them. The science of astronomy helps us to advance human knowledge to the benefit of the community.
Its impact has been positive, he continued, introducing the young to the process of modern exploration and discovery, a process consistent with past traditional practices.
Denying that, he believed, was the highest level of desecration.