Things that matter: Christians argue whether Mary was conceived without sin.

[Goblinmonger]

‘Pope’ Claims Mary Was Conceived ‘Without Original Sin’ During Feast of Immaculate Conception

In one of the feasts and celebrations marked on the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar leading up to Christmas, Catholics around the world observed the Feast of Immaculate Conception on Monday, a day in which those who follow the religion commemorate their belief that Mary was born without sin.

...

The concept of the “immaculate conception” was declared by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1844, who issued a proclamation stating, “The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

...(ETA: we now shift to a protestant minister--the following is not Pope Francis talking. Sorry for the confusion--thanks trotsky!)

“The doctrine of Mary’s pure conception without sin is pure heresy,” he continued, adding that Catholic doctrine not only teaches that Mary was sinless, but that she has power to save. “[The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)] teaches ‘Mary did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.’ (CCC, para. 969). ‘The Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things. In giving birth, you kept your virginity. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.’ (CCC, para. 966).”
...

“These doctrines have robbed God of His glory and have resulted in Catholics showing greater devotion to Mary than to the Lord Jesus Christ,” he said. “When she appears with the other believers on the day of Pentecost, she’s not an object of worship or even a leader in the early church. There are no occasions of anyone ever praying to her, honoring her or venerating her. She is never mentioned in any presentation of the Gospel.”

Perhaps my subject line is incorrect since there seems to be some indication that the Catholics, according to the article, are not really Christian and are heretics, but, like I think about Mormons, I consider them all Christian. I especially love the irony quotes around "pope."

To me, this seems about as important and sensical as trying to figure out how Moses parted the Red Sea. There are so many better fictional stories we could deconstruct.

Full Story

[hrmjustin]

1. I am not big on the original sin doctrine.

I interpet it to mean we all sin and have faults so I would say she was born into that.

I also believe in the Dormition of the Mother of God.

[Goblinmonger]

3. Even when I was Catholic and believed

I felt that this feast, the Immaculate Conception, kind of cut against free will. Mary didn't have a choice in this. It was decided before her conception that she would be the mother of Jesus.

Now, as I think about that, my path to atheism started a long way before I thought it did. As did my attraction to argumentation and logic.

[hrmjustin]

7. Anglican/Episcopalian though on Mary varies.

I believe she did have a choice in it.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

9. I have felt precisely the same misgivings.

I also reasoned that if Mary was truly free to refuse, then presumably there was at least one other woman who was also conceived without original sin, as a backup. This means there could also have been at least one other woman, also conceived without sin, who was approached first but said no.

I recently read another article discussing the nature of original sin -- the author argued that original sin was what made us turn away from God, and it occurred to me that the Church had long conflated that capacity with the reliance on reason rather than faith. So by removing Mary's capacity for sin, her capacity for reason, God effectively lobotomized her for his own purposes.

And yes, thinking too hard about some church doctrines can be a big step toward atheism to be sure.

[rug]

15. Then you've veered off the path.

Prior knowledge does not equal predestination.

[Goblinmonger]

18. If this were a time travel novel

there would be a paradox there.

What if she had said no? Gotta wait for a new immaculate conception before we can get the messiah?
Could she have said no?

[rug]

19. There is no paradox between prescience and predestination.

It would not be a choice if she could not say no. But she say fiat voluntas tua, however that translates into Aramaic.

If you want to discuss time travel and alternate history, watch Dr. Who and read Harry Turtledove.

You might be more knowledgeable on those subjects. Certainly more knowledgeable than this rightwing rag you linked to.

Don't you ever check your sources before posting disruptive flamebait?

[Goblinmonger]

21. If one is going to take a look at competing religious points of view

one often needs to look at right wing rags. Do we discount their theological position just because they are conservative? Didn't know that was a thing.

And this "right wing rag" doesn't get into the concept of free will. Nice try, though.

[Goblinmonger]

24. So I'm just a bullshitter now.

Fine. It seems kind of obvious that you are deflecting from any real discussion so I won't try anymore, I guess.

Though in case you still want to give it a go, did Mary actually have free will if God made her conception immaculate?

[exboyfil]

5. Those who insist that Mary had to be without sin

should also have to apply the argument to her parents and on up all the way to Adam. If she was unique (able to control her own self will to remain sinless) then she is probably even more special than Christ who is actually a deity who seems to have had a better toolkit to avoid sin than a human born into original sin.

Anyway you slice it a lot of effort put towards something that can never be proved and really has no relevance to what is important in the world.

[hrmjustin]

8. It is important to those who believe it.

[exboyfil]

2. Isaac Newton

One of the greatest minds in history spent considerable time on theology and mysticism. What could he have accomplished if he had spent those hours thinking about math or physics? I will give him a pass on the alchemy since we were still trying to understand the workings of nature, and the concept and structure of the atom had not yet formed.

[Mike Nelson]

4. How dumb!

...here's hoping Mary had a lovely, lively and safe sex life

[trotsky]

6. It should be noted that your third paragraph is a Protestant fundie speaking, not Blank Frank.

That confused me a bit from the excerpt but reading the full article it was clear.

Frankie saying that the doctrine of immaculate conception is heresy made me do a bit of a double-take.

[demwing]

10. It 's not nearly as important

as whether Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu, or whether Vishnu is an expansion of Krishna.

[Iggo]

11. So what. I need to know how many angels can dance on the head of...

...a pin.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. If she ever lived at all, of course she was born without sin.

Everyone is. 'Original Sin' is bullshit, used to control you.

[pinto]

13. (Cultural side note) Mexican and Polish Catholics hold a strong affiliation with Mary in the panoply

of observances in their take on Catholicism. Other Latin American Catholics may as well. And Filipino Catholics. I'm more familiar with Mexican and Polish Catholic cultures, though.

My cultural religious background is Irish Catholic - we were all about the saints and their "feast days" were routinely observed. Mary, not so much. Different cultures, different takes on Catholicism. It's not the monolithic entity portrayed by the Papal bureaucracy, fwiw.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Amen, brother

I come from Polish and Czech stock. We were all about the Mary.

[cbayer]

17. In Mexico, the saints are huge. Even the smallest of towns has theirs

and the celebration days are the highlight of the year. Same in Italy.

I don't see that much homage to Mary here, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

On the 9 days leading up to Christmas, there are these small street play that occur. Joseph and a pregnant Mary ride around town on a burro. They stop at various doors and sing, but are told that there is not room. They finally get to a place that welcomes them in.

Then, of course, there is a big party. I missed out last year, but I'm on the lookout this year.

[edhopper]

25. Didn't the people

Put the saints in place of the Gods they celebrated.
Keeping many of the same festivals.

[cbayer]

27. I dont understand your question at all.

The saints in this area were real humans, not replacements for gods. Their days are unique to them.

Or perhaps you are talking about something entirely different.

[edhopper]

31. I had read

That early on the saints took the place of Mayan gods in many festivals.
It's been a while, so I was asking if it's something you had heard.
It's not important, I was just curious.

[cbayer]

32. Never heard that, but can't contest it.

I know a little about how holidays were born of previous holidays, but not the saints.

[edhopper]

33. Now that I remember I'll Google it

if I find anything after a quick look, I'll post it.

[edhopper]

35. Mayan Syncretism

http://www.atitlan.net/maya/mayan-religion.htm

[cbayer]

36. That is an interesting interweaving of two belief systems, but i don't think

it supports that Catholic saints were proposed to take over for holidays that were no longer celebrated.

[edhopper]

38. No

I meant that as they became Catholic they kept some of their celebrations but existing saints replaced the gods.

Not that they made up new saints.

Though that is the case at least once:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim%C3%B3n

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Tonantzin and Our Lady of Guadalupe.

In Aztec mythology and among present-day Nahuas, Tonantzin 'Our Revered Mother' is a general title bestowed upon female deities. Informants of Sahagún, for example, called a frightening goddess of war and childbirth, Cihuacoatl, by this title. The title is particularly believed to refer to Mother Earth, and, among Catholics, nowadays denotes the Virgin Mary.
...
Later Syncretism

Some anthropologists believe that Our Lady of Guadalupe (an indigenous manifestation of Christ's mother Mary and patroness of Roman Catholic Mexico) is a syncretic and "Christianized" Tonantzin. Mexico City's 17th-century Basilica of Guadalupe--built in honor of the virgin and perhaps Mexico's most important religious building—was constructed at the base of the hill of Tepeyac, believed to be a site used for pre-Columbian worship of Tonantzin.

According to one theory, the creation of the Virgin of Guadalupe as a "Christianized" Tonantzin was used by clergymen to convert the Aztecs to their religion. In support of this viewpoint, Jacques Lafaye wrote in Quetzalcoatl and Guadalupe that "...as the Christians built their first churches with the rubble and the columns of the ancient pagan temples, so they often borrowed pagan customs for their own cult purposes."[1]

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Tonantzin.html

[pinto]

26. The Massachusetts town I come from holds a Feast of the Three Saints every year.

Apparently an ancient, very local Sicilian custom. The statues of the 3 saints are brought out from the church for the feast day and carried by hand through the streets accompanied by bands. "Cannons" on the roof tops shoot confetti over all and Italian sweets are sold from stalls all over the neighborhood. Then, the big party at the hall.

It is quite a show, especially for a small city.

Maybe the homage to Mary is more a northern Mexico thing, or Mexico City? Or, more likely, I'm conflating Virgen de Guadalupe with it. There's a big following here on the Central Coast.

Hope you make the festivities this year.

[cbayer]

29. That sounds like so much fun.

I have been very fortunate to have found myself unexpectedly in place where similar celebrations were taking place.

The Virgen de Guadalupe is based on a story that Mary appeared to a man in Mexico. Today is actually the festival day, but I think it is primarily in Mexico City.

I haven't seen anything in this little town today, but there might be something happening tonight.

[stone space]

28. Unfortunately, Dec 12 represents a day of tragedy for Latinos in Iowa history. (nt)

[cbayer]

30. Can you tell me about it?

[stone space]

34. It was 8 years ago today. The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

My wife arrived home physically shaking and crying.

She had just run into a friend of hers who had been working in a meat processing plane in the nearby town of Marshalltown earlier that day when the INS arrived.

The government had decided to celebrate the holiday with a huge multi-state immigration raid.

My wife told me about what her friend had witnessed in the plant.

The federal agents were doing everything that they could to humiliate the workers. Laughing in their faces, tying them together, punching them, kicking them, beating them, etc...

The impact of the raid was devastating, not just here in Iowa, but throughout the midwest.

[cbayer]

37. Tragic and extremely insensitive.

I had not previously heard of it, which is also tragic.

[stone space]

40. The Virgen de Guadalupe appears in Iowa history at least as far back as 1992.

Preparing The Way: Hispanic Ministry And Community Transformation In Marshalltown,Iowa

Anne C.Woodrick
Department of Sociology,Anthropology,and Criminology
University of Northern Iowa

ABSTRACT: Recent anthropological studies of new immigrant destination communities recognize Marshalltown,Iowa,as one of the unusually successful U.S.towns in its accommodation of recent Latino immigrants.This paper examines the crucial role that Rev.John Allen of Elim Lutheran Church played in establishing the foundation for a Latino community identity and forging an integrated and diverse Marshalltown community. One person, with a vision and passion for his work and respect and empathy for others, made the difference. However,Hispanic ministry can never be static, and over time others more effectively built upon Allen’s foundation. Hispanic ministry is a process that must evolve in order to effectively respond to changing social, cultural, and advocacy needs of the immigrants it serves.

Prologue

The Rev.John Allen,pastor of Elim Lutheran Church (E.L.C.A.)in Marshalltown,Iowa,and his family were enjoying a Chinese dinner in Wong ’s Restaurant a few weeks before Christmas. Their after-dinner conversation engaged a couple of young Latino men who were bussing tables. Until this moment Allen had not really had a chance to speak with some of the Latino newcomers who had been arriving in Marshalltown during the past year. An inquisitive Allen discovered that none of the men had plans to celebrate Christmas in church. The Latinos explained that they wished to attend mass, but wanted to participate in a Spanish mass. All worship services in local churches were in English. In response to their dilemma, Allen invited them and any other Latinos to a Spanish mass at Elim on Christmas Day afternoon.

On Christmas Day, 1990, Rev. John Allen, assisted by a translator, celebrated a Spanish Christmas liturgy for 15 Latinos, and began an 18-month Hispanic ministry in Marshalltown. The Latino congregation grew to more than 250 registered families. A choir was formed. Baptisms and First Communions were performed. Padre Juan,as John Allen was affectionately called, and the mostly Mexican immigrants worked together to create a dynamic Latino congregation. Many Elim parishioners were supportive and appreciative of the new ministry.

However,the Elim Hispanic ministry also had its challenges. A few vocal individuals were not supportive of Allen’s ministry to the Mexicans. Catholics worshipping in a Lutheran church raised concerns among Anglo-Lutherans and Catholics alike. And the expanding Latino congregation expressed to the Elim Church Council their desire that a Spanish-speaking priest be hired by the local Catholic Church.

In July 1992, the Archdiocese of Dubuque appointed Father Paul Ouderkirk as the Hispanic Minister of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Marshalltown. This was the first Hispanic ministry appointment in the Archdiocese. That summer John Allen accepted a call to a church in Wisconsin and was to leave town in early August. The two clergy overlapped a month in Marshalltown. Father Paul attended the Spanish masses held at Elim, and the priests worked together to plan Padre Juan's final Spanish worship service. On a Sunday afternoon in late July, Rev. John Allen began his last Spanish mass at Elim. Immediately following the benediction, Padre Juan and Father Paul, dressed in full vestments, the entire Latino congregation, the choir and guitar players, and the statue of the Virgen de Guadalupe processed from Elim down the sidewalks of Marshalltown to St. Mary’s Catholic Church. In the basement of St. Mary’s Rev. John Allen passed his Hispanic ministry to Father Paul and bade goodbye to his Latino friends.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/237786158_Preparing_The_Way_Hispanic_Ministry_And_Community_Transformation_In_Marshalltown_Iowa

[cbayer]

41. Interesting. I have some friends here from Iowa and they were not familiar with

this event. They did, on the other hand, know that there had been a serious influx of Latinos into Northern Iowa over the past 25 years or so.

[stone space]

42. For many of those affected by this raid, she was a symbol of hope and protection.

KEY ISSUE: TIMING OF RAID

Raid came as Hispanics honor a symbol of hope

Federal immigration agents raided a Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Marshalltown Tuesday on the day that many Hispanics pay tribute to a symbol of hope and protection.

National icon: The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, a Catholic liturgical holy day, was celebrated Tuesday. For Mexicans, Our Lady of Guadalupe is a national symbol as well as a religious icon. Hispanics in the United States turn to her for spiritual support in an anti-immigrant climate.

Her story: The apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared to the Aztec people at a time when they were powerless to sustain their culture under Spanish colonization. Legend has it that on Dec. 9, 1531, the Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego, 57, a native Indian and recent Catholic convert. The apparition spoke to Diego in his native language, telling him to tell the bishop to build a shrine to honor her, "Ever Virgin Mary, Mother of the True God." At first disbelieved by the local bishop, Diego appealed to the lady for a sign three days later. She told him where to find a garden of flowers blooming in the snow. Gathering the flowers in his tilma (a long cloak made of coarse cactus fibers worn by Mexican Indians), he took them to the bishop to prove he was being truthful. When the flowers cascaded from his tilma, the now familiar depiction of Our Lady of Guadalupe remained on the cloth.

Influence on church: The miraculous event had a powerful influence on the growth of the Catholic Church in Mexico. In 1737, Our Lady of Guadalupe was officially designated as the patroness of Mexico City. She was named patroness of New Spain in 1746.

- Shirley Ragsdale, Register religion editor

KEY ISSUES: 'What a sad day it is,' woman's husband says

Dec. 13, 2006



Johnny Merida, 15, and other family members did not know where his mother was after Tuesday's raid. Marta Merida was detained in the Swift & Co. plant raid.\uFEFF / DOUG WELLS/THE REGISTER

Marshalltown, Ia. - Marcelo Merida wants to know where his wife is.

He last saw her when immigration agents found her hiding among some boxes at the Swift & Co. plant, where they both work. She and dozens of other workers were loaded onto buses and taken to an unknown location.

Merida has no answers for their two teenage children.

"What a sad day it is. They split up many families," he said. "There are many children who came home and didn't have any parents. How will they get along?"

snip-----------

Marcelo Merida, 39, and Marta, 35, have been married 16 years. They are from Guatemala.

He has valid work permits, he said, but his wife was working under another name with a borrowed birth certificate.

The Meridas went to work at 5 a.m. They were told to report to the cafeteria at 7, but Merida said his wife hid. Agents used what he described as sensors that detect body heat and found her.

His daughter - Jessica, 14 - had just arrived at Marshalltown High School when she heard about the raid. She said her first thought was, "I wonder if my mom will be taken away."

Soon after, her father called.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061213/BUSINESS/612130392/1001

[rug]

16. Are you pimping Michael Marcavage's website now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repent_America

Blinders leads you into odd quarters.

[cbayer]

20. Shhhhh! He's on a mission and it's not going all that well.

I will keep you updated.

[potone]

23. This doctrine is not only rejected by Protestants.

The Eastern Orthodox Church does not view Mary this way. She is considered to be the greatest of saints and to have the power to intercede with God, but she was singular only in her piety; otherwise she was an ordinary woman. It is important in this doctrine that she agreed to bear Jesus of her own free will. She is venerated in both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, but she is worshiped in neither one.

[struggle4progress]

43. This is a very old tradition, that Martin Luther described as "a sweet and pious belief "

One useful approach might be to understand how such Marian doctrines are connected to other teachings. Perhaps, for example, it is connected to the idea that our intentions matter and to "natural law" views that the true purpose of sexuality is reproduction.