Eight values that progressive believers and non-believers share

[cbayer]

Adapted in large part from this: http://mpvusa.org/mpv-principles/

Please add others.

1. Separation of church and state, including the 1st amendment protections of freedom from religion and freedom of religion.

2. Freedom of Speech, including freedom to promote views regarding religion, whether they are popular or not and even if they are offensive.

3. Social justice and economic equality for all, regardless of race, sex, gender, gender identification, ethnicity, nationality, creed, sexual orientation or ability

4. Universal Human Rights, including universal health care, universal public education, the protection of our environment, and the eradication of poverty.

5. Gender equality including reproductive justice and the power to make health decisions about ones own body.

6. LGBTQ equality, including marriage equality.

7. Compassion and a repudiation of violence whether that violence has a connection to religion or no connection at all.

8. Diversity and pluralism, including engaging with a diversity of philosophical and spiritual traditions to pursue a more just, peaceful and sustainable world.

[NYC_SKP]

1. 2, 3, 7, and 8 are often painfully neglected in discussions of religion.

So much so that it this may need it's own bullet to be stated very explicity:

Respect and Tolerance of others' belief systems (to include the ability to resist insult and childish bullying behaviors).

I think it was William Ayers who said "Each of us is an expert in our own experience", or something like that, at a conference I attended with him a few years ago (you know the one).

I've always taken that to mean STFU unless you really have a full handle on the other person's life before you profess to "know more" about a thing than they do or speak or act on their behalf.

This advice has served me well in the completion of duties during my career.

That's respect, respect doesn't mean agreeing with, it just means acknowledge the other's POV with kindness and an open mind.

"Pallin" around with a terrorist, Dr. Ayers let me take an iPhone pic with him.

[cbayer]

2. Agree that that could use it's own bullet.

The point you make about thinking one knows more about another person than that person knows themselves is critical.

The best therapists take the journey with their patients. They know that the patient has the answers. It is the therapists job to ask the right questions, knock on the right doors and then go down the path with their patient. This is why self-help books make my skin crawl. Every one was written by someone who found their personal answer, then erroneously came to believe that it could be applied to everyone else.

Love Bill Ayers! Too bad half your face got cut off.

[NYC_SKP]

3. Yes, indeed! The patient is the expert and solutions are in them, in their heart, soul, spirit.

And to the extent that we are all products of our experiences, how can others know better?

And, oh, I have the whole picture but I'm not going to post it all lest some creature from CC try to screw with me.

I'm a dork with groupies but fearless in asking to take pics when they're my favorite people. I need a picture with you!

[cbayer]

4. I share your concern about creatures screwing with me.

You would be much easier to find than me, though.

Someday we shall have a picture together.

When are you coming to Mexico!

[NYC_SKP]

5. I'm long overdue for a trip South.

My last was probably ten years ago, to Akumal with side trips to Tulum and Chichen.

We'll have to talk about it!

[edhopper]

6. Love that area

been to Cozumel a few times.
Fantastic diving.

Coba is neat too because it is largely unrestored.

[NYC_SKP]

10. I should take up diving, I've only ever been snorkling, and that's pretty awesome.

Turtles, Morays, corals big and small, it's my favorite thing to do.

[cbayer]

12. I am sticking to snorkeling.

Diving is expensive and carries more risk that I am comfortable taking. I prefer to stay up there at the top where humans like myself (bad swimmers) belong.

[NYC_SKP]

16. I'm sure divers think otherwise, but there's plenty of beauty in the upper ten feet of the ocean.

I'll snorkel anywhere, even went off the landing at Catalina.

Mostly some kelp and little fishies.

[cbayer]

17. There is great snorkeling in catalina.

I've had some wonderful experiences.

Did you see what happened in Avalon this week? REally tragic.

[NYC_SKP]

18. I liked it but didn't do any research, didn't have a guide, just there for the day.

And yes, I did see how the winds caused so much damage and what, one death or two, Coast Guardsperson?

So sad!

[cbayer]

19. Two deaths. One was a harbor patrol employee, apparently trying to save a boat.

Not sure about the other guy.

Apparently it come up very suddenly and was not predicted.

I've been in that harbor in some really gnarly weather, but I've never seen anything like this.

[NYC_SKP]

20. It was windy up here, too.

I was at the place on the coast for part of it and it was just crazy windy.

The wind blew over my shopping cart at the Home Depot in Capitola.

With that, Millie and I just called it quits and rode home to tuck in.

[pinto]

23. Saw a brief blip on the cable news here. Looked rough along with the resulting loss of life.

[cbayer]

24. We have talked to friends there and it is really tragic.

At one point we thought the second person was a personal friend, but we were able to reach him and he was fine.

It's a very small, very close knit community. I am so sorry for their losses.

[pinto]

26. Glad your friend is OK. Saw footage of good sized craft pushed up along Avalon.

[cbayer]

27. The harbor patrol guy was crushed between one of those large boats and the rocks.

The weather is sometimes a harsh master.

[edhopper]

21. Diving is as close as you can come

to the sensation of flying.

It is a much calmer experience than snorkeling.

I do both.

[cbayer]

25. I did the PADI book course, but I never went further.

The cost was prohibitive for me and I really felt like I was going to feel claustrophobic.

I'm one of those idiots that would probably panic and end up doing everything wrong.

I have a certain degree of envy but not enough to get me to do it.

[edhopper]

29. It is costly

I feel free when I dive.

But living in the NE I only do it on vacation in warm climes.

[edhopper]

7. Yes

those are areas of agreement.

[cbayer]

8. Do you have any to add?

[edhopper]

9. Not right now

I like the list and think those things important.

Sort of giving a "like" to it.

[cbayer]

11. I am glad you like it.

I think it would be worthwhile to try and post in a way that reflects the things everyone here shares. I'm going to try to use it as a guideline, though I know that positive topics generally don't get much play here.

[edhopper]

22. They are not as much fun

[hrmjustin]

13. K&R!

Good post.

[cbayer]

14. Thanks, justin. I am hoping that it can be something that everyone here

can rally around, though we shall see.

Anything you would like to add?

[hrmjustin]

15. This post says it all.

[pinto]

28. +1

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

[LostOne4Ever]

30. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

Do NOT do unto others as you would have them not do unto you.

Both parts are important but usually one or the other is omitted.

[JEFF9K]

31. You are comparing? ...

Progressive believers with progressive non-believers or progressive believers with all non-believers?

[JEFF9K]

33. That doesn't make sense to you?

Progressive non-believers and conservative non-believers are TWO SEPARATE GROUPS. A combination of ALL non-believers is a third group.

There are plenty of conservative non-believers!

The thread could have EASILY been worded so as to be non-ambiguous. The word "idiotic" applies to someone else.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. I'm just wondering if your replies are an example of how you think

discussions should be conducted in this forum.

[cbayer]

37. I am sorry if you found it ambiguous, but I'm not idiotic.

Would you like me to change the title to make it clearer? It seems pretty obvious to me that conservative anythings would not share these values.

[cbayer]

36. Progressive is applied both to believers and non-believers.

While the demographics regarding non-believers show that they tend to be progressive, there are certainly very conservative non-believers. I don't think they share these values.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. While the demographics show that believers tend to be rightwingers,

there certainly are progressive believers.

[NYC_SKP]

40. Your post is clear enough. The reply is obtuse and unnecessary, and has only served to create hides

Interesting how that works and I pity the member who had two replies hidden due to that one odd reply.

Baiting and alerting, it's here to stay.

Additionally, I reject any claims that progressives are more likely to be atheistic or that believers are more likely to be conservative.

Such claims don't even rise to the level of rhetoric, as they lack any factual basis whatsoever and use terms that are too ill-defined to provide any useful data.

I mean, progressives can't even agree on what "progressive" means, and the same goes for atheists, agnostics, and believers.

Such silliness, to try to apply guilt by association with such weak sauce.

Dear me.

[cbayer]

41. I thought it was clear, but I'm happy to edit if some are confused.

The data point often referred to is that atheists tend to be more liberal/progressive in their political positions than the general population or than religious people. Correlation is not necessary causation, though, and the strongest corollaries are with economic status.

[NYC_SKP]

42. I guess you needed to place "progressive" before "non-believers" to avoid confusion.

But I think it went without saying that "progressive" in your subject line was to be applied to both believers and non-believers.

As far as attempts to distract and get into the pissing match about which group is "better", even when correlations exist, they're pretty useless when the qualifying terms are vague.

I'm reminded of how people like to equate income with intelligence.

It just doesn't work that way.

[cbayer]

43. Well you know how we idiotic people are! Anyway, if that is the strongest objection

to this list than can be made, I think we are doing pretty well. I'm glad that people in this group recognize that we have much more in common when it comes to political/social values, than we do differences.

Neither group is better in my opinion. Just different, but in ways that pale in light of the big picture.

[NYC_SKP]

44. Too many heavy metals in our fancy yacht water, I s'pose.

Chilly and windy out here, I repaired my gas fireplace last week and then let my friends "borrow" the place for a long weekend.

They were cracking me up with their Facebook updates and sharing everything they were doing, bike rides and hiking and wine on the beach.

I got more satisfaction out of knowing how much fun they were having than being there myself.

[cbayer]

46. That's great that your friends could enjoy your place.

It's still hot here, but I shouldn't complain because I feel for all those in frigid climes.

Our engine is having muchas problemas. We are stuck in a slip while it is getting repaired. It's so much hotter in the marina and I am looking forward to getting out, hopefully in the next few days.

Had to sell off a few of the slaves. One put Splenda in my freshly roasted, free trade Colombian iced coffee and another used that orange flavored febreeze in the guest quarters. Can you even imagine what I have to put up with!

[NYC_SKP]

47. !

You just can't find good help anymore.

You poor thing, orange Febreeze?!!!

Can you even find new 1,200 thread count linens where you are?

[cbayer]

49. I'm having to have my linens hand woven.

The things I have to put up with.

It's unspeakable, I tell you.

[NYC_SKP]

51. Are you going to use Astrakhan? You'd really love it!

Better for cooler climates but nothing comes close to the feel of fabrics woven from the tightly curled fleece of a Karakul lamb.

If you can find any where you are.

They say the younger the lamb, the softer... It's kind of creepy, actually.

Maybe just stick with true linen!

[cbayer]

54. I shall have it imported. While they are at it, they can import some

Uzbekistanis as well. You can never have too many weavers around.

Oops! Almost forgot that I am posing as a progressive non-believer. Drat, I let the mask slip again.

[Goblinmonger]

62. Wait. So you are taking the side of the person that got hides?

Really? It's never the fault of the person attacking the non-believer it is.

This isn't Interfaith where "baited by their mere presence" is an actual thing. That person chose to reply with a really shitty attitude and a jury (rightfully and twice) saw that attitude for what it was.

THIS is why things will never get better in here.

[rug]

66. This isn't A&A either where "baited by their mere presence" is an actual thing.

If you want to stack up who's chosen "to reply with a really shitty attitude", the search bar is in the upper right.

For someone who often complains about "alert trolling", this is rich.

The post you're replying to has accurately stated the "bait and alert" stratagem which is the lingua franca of this room.

[Goblinmonger]

68. I complain about alert trolling a safe haven.

How, exactly, is the post in question a "bait and alert" stratagem? All it did was say that the wording of the OP was a little unclear. Though I knew what the OP was posting, it was a valid point about a possible misunderstanding. Certainly not something worthy of the "you're an idiot" response that it got.

[trotsky]

39. Do they really?

For #1, you do realize that support for "separation of church and state" isn't a binary proposition, right? So much of it comes down to where one draws the line. And here in this group, we have had apologists for all sorts of actions that violate the principle of separation of church and state. Religious monuments on public land. Religious memorials on public roads. And on and on.

For #2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, well, you've eliminated the Catholic Church.

#7 and #8, like #1, have a lot of gray area depending on how one defines and understands the words. The RCC teaches that abortion is murder, i.e., violence. Do we as progressives oppose that "violence"?

I understand that you want everyone in this group to believe and think just like you. I am extremely glad they don't.

[NYC_SKP]

45. Look, trotsky, the Roman Catholic Church, it's like Texas...

If you read the OP, you'll see that our friend is talking about individual humans, not the institutions.

Do you really think that all practicing Catholics consider abortions to be acts of murder?

Well of course you don't.

The Texas Board of Education rejects evolution.

Do you really think that Texans, then, reject evolution?

Well, of course you don't.

And I'm quite certain that my friend does not want "everyone in this group to believe and think just like" her.

I see that as a personal attack and am disappointed.

There.

I'm glad we had this chat.

[trotsky]

48. Let's get one thing straight here, SKP.

cbayer may be your friend, but she is not mine. I know too much about her history on DU, as well as the behavior of those she is close to.

Now as to the topic at hand, the RCC fights against those items with their massive wealth and political influence. Some individual Catholics have certainly seen the light and support some progressive values in spite of their church, sure. But to say that progressive believers and non-believers share all these items? Nope, false.

As another example, cbayer's own husband mocked concern over the Hobby Lobby ruling by saying that women could just buy their rubbers at 7-11 like everyone else. I see that as a clear departure from the list, particularly 1, 2, 4, and 5.

So no, I'm afraid we don't have consensus on these items.

[NYC_SKP]

50. Oh, I'm not asking you to like cbayer, or her husband, or anything like that.

You've taken a simple proposition set forth in the OP, and made it as absolutely personal as possible.

Consensus, I think it is a given, will neither be found here nor is expected to be as regards the proposed common values.

There are, and will always be, outliers, but in my circles and on DU, I think the enumerated items are met with broad acceptance by believers and non-believers alike.

There's still a place at the table for folks who don't want to agree with all of it, or the inclusiveness of the spirit in which it's presented.

Have a seat.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. A well-done effort to restore the spirit with which this thread was obviously intended.

[trotsky]

53. Would "making it personal" include the large number of your posts in this thread...

talking about DUers and not the topic? Or is it a case of "Do as I say, not as I do"?

[Goblinmonger]

63. So if we all agree that these things are common goals,

then it would follow that calling out those institutions that don't support those would be a common goal as well, yes?

Because everytime it is pointed out that the RCC doesn't support these, it doesn't get universal support here.

[NYC_SKP]

64. Absolutely true. I suggest you suggest to cbayer that the list include that very point.

I think she and most others would agree that progressives of all sort support reform within the various institutions.

And, I suspect many progressive Catholics, for example, lobby for such changes.

When a church or other institution changes policy to become more equitable and fair and honest, it usually doesn't happen in a vacuum; there are forces acting upon it.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. People leaving in droves is a force.

People not tithing in droves is another. It doesn't have to be about 'leaving religion', it can just be simply leaving a shitty regressive misogynistic, homophobic, anti-list-of-progressive-causes church in favor of a church that shares ones values.

One can always come back after the original church goes 'Holy Shit, we're losing money!' and fortuitously gets a celestial fax about changing certain doctrines.

[MellowDem]

55. Churches still get to discrimate....

As an exception to the general law. It's why many churches can ignore 2-8, and any progressive that identifies with such churches come across as disingenuous.

[Prophet 451]

56. Minor quibble with 2

The way it's worded here could be read as allowing for hate speech.

[cbayer]

58. I think we could probably all agree that hate speech is not covered.

[trotsky]

60. Good point.

And some people think any criticism of their religion or especially its founders/prophets is "hate speech."

[brooklynite]

57. With respect to 5, 6 and 7 however, the non-believers don't have to reconcile progress with divine commandments...

...at least the way I understand the believers' religious tomes to read.

[cbayer]

59. Everyone may have to reconcile parts of this with other things

that they hold dear. Whether a believer or a non-believer, it doesn't make any difference.

Do you see anything here that would be contradicted by the "divine commandments"?

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Calling BS on 1-7.

Progressive believers of many individual brands of religion materially contribute to churches that spend money and influence lobbying directly against all 7 of those 'values'. I don't think it can be considered a 'value' if you hand money to a quasi-political entity that attacks those same 'values'.

You can be a progressive and still a Mormon, I guess, but your tithing materially contributed to the 30 million dollars the LDS spent on Prop 8, so... yeah.

Last year the RCC was a little distracted, lobbying-wise, spending 10x as much on fighting extending statute of limitations on sexual abuse of children, than they spent blocking same-sex marriage, but it's still on the list. If you contribute to the church in any fashion, you are either directly funding, or offsetting costs that free up other funds for these fights, even if you, the member, are a progressive yourself.

[NYC_SKP]

67. Oh Good Grief.

By your standards, there really can be no list.

By your standards, using your test, anyone who has a pension fund that invests in an oil company can't be an environmentalist or can't claim that as a value shared with environmentalists.

Anyone in a Union that supports a Republican can't claim to share Democratic values.

I think your line of reasoning is decidedly divisive.

Suppose we were to include only people who don't tithe or contribute capital, would that work for you?

Or would you then say that members of the Mormon faith, for example MUST leave the church before they can be considered progressive?

We agnostics and atheists are not going to find common ground with believers if we insist that they must disavow and leave their faith.

[AtheistCrusader]

69. Actually, it's not unusual to see Liberal efforts divesting itself of financial interests in

conservative/regressive causes.
http://www.governing.com/news/state/mct-calpers-sells-gun-manufacturer-stocks.html

"Anyone in a Union that supports a Republican can't claim to share Democratic values."

If you read what I said, very carefully, that's not what I said at all. I said materially contributing to a political org that is at odds with their actual values.

"We agnostics and atheists are not going to find common ground with believers if we insist that they must disavow and leave their faith."

I didn't say leave the faith. I said consider leaving the church/org. See post 65, in reply to you directly.

65. People leaving in droves is a force.

People not tithing in droves is another. It doesn't have to be about 'leaving religion', it can just be simply leaving a shitty regressive misogynistic, homophobic, anti-list-of-progressive-causes church in favor of a church that shares ones values.

One can always come back after the original church goes 'Holy Shit, we're losing money!' and fortuitously gets a celestial fax about changing certain doctrines.

One can keep their faith, and still go hang out with the UU's for a little bit, I am told. It sends a stronger message than simply paying dues in a top-down hierarchical org that doesn't care what the members think, and instead, exists explicitly to tell the members what to think.

[NYC_SKP]

70. OK. Then your bullshit call doesn't apply to all believers. The OP list is still valid, then?

We can exclude people who materially support their parishes, temples, organizations.

I can accept that detail for the purposes of developing a list of values.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. I would revise it to SOME progressive believers.

Because then the OP would be true.

As it stands, there is a significant contingent may personally share those values, they still materially contribute funds and lobbying representation to political entities that actively lobby against those values.


If you say 'I believe X', and then hand money to some person that is actively working to thwart 'X', you're, at the least, doing it wrong.