Neil deGrasse Tyson Defends Scientology—and the Bush Administration’s Science Record

[Humanist_Activist]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]I’m curious what your take on Scientology is, because the intergalactic story of Xenu does encroach on your territory a bit.[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]So, you have people who are certain that a man in a robe transforms a cracker into the literal body of Jesus saying that what goes on in Scientology is crazy? Let’s realize this: What matters is not who says who’s crazy, what matters is we live in a free country. You can believe whatever you want, otherwise it’s not a free country—it’s something else. If we start controlling what people think and why they think it, we have case studies where that became the norm. I don’t care what the tenets are of Scientology. They don’t distract me. I don’t judge them, and I don’t criticize them.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]As a scientist, does homophobia strike you as particularly odd? There are many species within the animal kingdom that are attracted to the same sex, and perhaps if people were more educated in the sciences instead of religious dogma, then there would be less homophobia.[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Well, it almost always entirely stems from religion. But the point here is that if you’re religious, and your religion tells you that being gay is bad, then don’t be gay. But you have to remind yourself that that’s your belief system, and there are other belief systems that don’t agree with that, so you should not be in the position to make legislation that affects other people.


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]President George W. Bush named you to a pair of aerospace commissions, but how do you feel about Bush’s relationship with science? He was also someone who believed in “intelligent design” and is widely known to have suppressed scientific discussion of global warming during his administration.[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]People can say and think what they want, but what matters is whether or not it becomes policy or legislation, and I don’t remember any legislation that restricted science. In fact, the budget for the National Science Foundation went up. What matters is money in Congress. What does Congress do? Allocate money. That’s really what they do. So the science budget of the country went up during the Bush administration, and the budget for NASA went up 3 percent—and it had actually dropped 25 percent in real spending dollars under the eight years of President Clinton. I don’t care what you say or think. I care about legislation, and policy.

I thought this was an interesting interview, questions in bold, of course. I do think NDT's strongest points are on Scientology's beliefs and how they aren't any crazier than any other religions, at least if you look at it from an outsider's perspective. Interesting thoughts.

ON EDIT: Bloody hell, forgot the link!

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/31/neil-degrasse-tyson-defends-scientology-and-the-bush-administration-s-science-record.html

[stone space]

1. Uh...no...terrible advice!

As a scientist, does homophobia strike you as particularly odd? There are many species within the animal kingdom that are attracted to the same sex, and perhaps if people were more educated in the sciences instead of religious dogma, then there would be less homophobia.

Well, it almost always entirely stems from religion. But the point here is that if you’re religious, and your religion tells you that being gay is bad, then don’t be gay. But you have to remind yourself that that’s your belief system, and there are other belief systems that don’t agree with that, so you should not be in the position to make legislation that affects other people.

And by "no", I mean "Hell, no!"

[Drunken Irishman]

2. Bush banned the research of stem cells. To me, that's an anti-science legislation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. I think he should watch docs about Scientology; objections are about their coercion and profiting

not about whether their claims sound crazy. Some of the reasons Scientology tends to be despised and seen as an evil con:

L. Ron Hubbard's life was built on a series of lies and bullying

Scientology's clergy formed as a response to investigations

The church essentially went to war with the IRS over tax exemption

Scientology's win over the IRS allowed the church to rake in money

Members of Sea Org who criticize the church are "destressed" through torture

Scientology blackmails its members with private "audit" sessions

Miscavige created a prison camp for Sea Org members

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/features/10-things-we-learned-from-going-clear-20150330?page=2

He should judge and criticize them. Everyone should. Until then, he should admit his ignorance.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Other religions coerce and profit.

You have not made a distinction.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Few to the degree that scientologists do; and we don't say we don't care about them

We don't say "it doesn't matter that Catholics have some ridiculous beliefs"; we say "it's outrageous they covered up child abuse on a huge scale". It's outrageous that Scientology covers up abuse on a large scale. NdGT shouldn't minimise it.

If I met anyone who was a scientologist, I would think they are either partially brainwashed and in need of help; or, if they're in the hierarchy, I'd think they were nasty people who needed to be fought. I don't think there's any other 'religion' that is internationally known in which it's impossible to be a normal person who just happens to have some weird beliefs about the supernatural.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Yes I agree that many religions are abusive scams.

What I disagree with is that scientology is some sort of outlier. It is just a new kid on the block.

[Raster]

29. Scientology = 21st Century Mormonism

or
LDS = 20th Century Scientology.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. If we want to go back in history scientology is way down on the abuse scale.

I mean seriously, when was the last time scientology burnt a witch?

[LiberalAndProud]

13. Neil deGrasse Tyson would rather not be pulled into these discussions.

He has the universe to think about. The religious bickering isn't interesting to him. Taking a stand against religion distracts from his discussion of where science might take us if we were only just curious enough. It's disingenuous of you to ask him to take a stand against Scientology while he's been equally resistant to taking a stand against religiosity in general.

If you don't like Scientology and want to spread the anti-Scientology creed, that's for you to do. Just don't expect Tyson to war at your side. I admire him for it. I resent that folks would expect him to be partisan in the religious wars.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. He didn't say "I don't want to talk about it", though

He talks about them at length, and asks "But why aren’t they a religion?" The answer to that, in many people's eyes (eg the British Charity Commission) it exists to take people's money, and not for the benefit of others. It also abuses, physically and mentally, people who try to leave it.

It's not at all admirable that he gives a pass to a bunch of abusers, and aids their cover-up. I don't think anyone should be making excuses for them.

[LiberalAndProud]

16. Gives a pass to a bunch of abusers. That is so ironic it's painful.

Tyson is an ambassador for scientific discovery. If he were to become really vocal about religion, I do not think you would like what he would have to say.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Why would I not like it?

I'm surprised and disappointed he's giving a pass to Scientology. Are you saying he really does like it, and that he feels the same about other religions too?

[LiberalAndProud]

18. Here is the thing.

Every criticism that you have of Scientology could also be leveled at "mainstream" religions. Maybe not all of them, but certainly many. That the media and a great many of the religious have decided to set themselves in opposition to scientific discovery even to the point of discrediting, discounting and denying those discoveries isn't Tyson's fault. If it were up to him, he'd leave this discussion for the theologists and believers, but that is not an option in these times.

Did we actually have a discussion on this board on whether science and religion are at odds. I offer this argument as evidence that, Yes they totally are.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. No, they are worst than most:

Here's what you are knowingly glossing over, since this is the criticism you are explicitly saying can also be leveled at mainstream religions:

Much of the film is spent discussing the Rehabilitation Project Force, a confined space created by Hubbard which ex-church member Spanky Taylor — formerly John Travolta's handler and closest contact within the church — describes as a "prison camp." She was sent after criticizing the church for denying medical treatment to her boss; though it was seemingly a "mistake," she discovered that many of the church's executives were also at RPF. Miscavige describes it as a place to become "destressed" through menial labor, but Taylor describes it as "30 hours on, three hours off." Eventually, she became pregnant, something the church describes as an "unpractical burden" for members of Sea Org, leading it to pressure many into having abortions.

Throughout the film, Taylor wonders how Travolta has been continually kept in thrall to the church, particularly when he has the power to push back against many of its practices. The possible conclusion: the recorded "audit" sessions, Scientology's equivalent of confession. They are meticulously recorded and conveyed to church officials, allowing the revealed secrets to be used as leverage against dissatisfied members. The assembled auditing sessions constitute a perpetual Sword of Damocles, capable of, in theory, bringing him or any other member down at any moment.
...
In what might be Going Clear's most brutal bombshell sequence, talking heads describe "The Hole," a cesspool riddled with ants where Scientology executives were held, often for years. They would suffer beatings, were doused with water, and were forced to play "musical chairs" — set to Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody." All of this was designed to elicit confessions of their crimes against Hubbard and Miscavige. Eventually, the Hole led several Scientologists, including Rathburn and now-activist Mike Rinder, to leave the church. The Scientologist ex-wives of these dissenters went on TV to repeat what the film convincingly argues are coached talking points, such as the idea that they knew "every inch" of their former husbands. Out of all of Going Clear's revelations, this one might be the smoking gun.

No, really, the Episcopalians really aren't that bad. These people are con artists who literally abuse their victims.

That the media and a great many of the religious have decided to set themselves in opposition to scientific discovery even to the point of discrediting, discounting and denying those discoveries

What the hell does that mean? What has that got to do with the abuse in scientology?

[LiberalAndProud]

20. I get it you dislike Scientology.

Tyson is a scientist. His opinion on the subject matters why? Oh, because he doesn't condemn Scientology.

He also does not condemn the pedophilia-ridden Catholic Church, or the Muslim faith which in it's extreme form really really discourages defection, if you care to keep your head. Or Mormonism and their magic underwear. Don't expect him as an unbeliever to condemn one sect that you find particularly heinous. It isn't his job and doesn't fall under his purview as an astronomist.

I dislike Scientology too, I'm just less discriminating than you are.


On edit: And I said astrologist. That was totally disrespectful. Corrected.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. So why do you think I wouldn't like it if he became vocal about religion?

I brought up the Catholics and paedophilia in #9. It seems to me that you're the one who wouldn't like it if he started criticising religion, since you're the one saying it isn't his job, and you're saying it was fine for him to talk about Scientology in the interview but say that he hasn't a problem with it.

And the problem with the Mormons is not their magic underwear. You're repeating deGrasse Tyson's mistake - saying that it's ridiculous beliefs that may mark out religions for criticism, when it's things like their anti-LGBT politics that are what's wrong with them.

[LiberalAndProud]

22. Because if he did, he would sound something like Richard Dawkins.

And we all know how offensive Dawkins can be.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. I think Dawkins gets a bad rap, overall

His tweeting does make him sound like a grumpy old man, but if deGrasse Tyson were to come out with something like The God Delusion, it would be great. Dawkins, being British and older, doesn't have the traction Neil would have. And I don't think he'd make the faux pas about women that Dawkins is prone to.

[LiberalAndProud]

25. I like him the way he is.

The man loves the stars. "I am being pulled along by cosmic forces beyond my understanding."

[trotsky]

31. It is worthwhile to note comparisons with other religions.

Particularly Christianity - how did its clergy form? Did the Christian church go to war? Did the Christian church take in a lot of money? Were people who disagreed with the Christian church, spoke out against it, etc. tortured? (Or worse?) Does the Christian church have a procedure by which they require parishioners to confess sins to a member of the organization? Have people been imprisoned for their actions against the Christian church?

Many of the particular charges against Scientology are unique to its place in history - obviously there was no IRS to battle against in the Middle East in 100-300 CE. But the parallels to the early growth and development of other religions are remarkable and worth noting.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

4. That doesn't strike me as a defense of scientology so much as it does a defense of freedom

of thought. He doesn't seem to know or care what the 'tenets' of Scientology are. So he's saying 'You have the freedom to believe whatever stupid thing you want'. That's a nice position and makes a good soundbite, but lacks in nuance. What people think leads to what people do, and if we allow them to think, for instance, that they should microwave a baby, they just might end up microwaving a baby. So we try to shape how people think. Or 'control thought' as he seems to want to call it.

Some people think they should be able to shout 'Fire' in a fire-free movie theatre, or fire guns into crowds. We try to "control these thoughts" to prevent the actions from following up. A recent OP about the 'Clear' movie pointed out that Scientologists have likewise done a lot of shady things as a result of their 'thoughts'. Whether or not he judges or criticizes them, they've still done some seriously unethical things in the name of their religious beliefs, things that have harmed people. And while people are always willing to write off things done in the name of religion as not being the fault of the religion, we're talking about a religion that was only created what, 50-60 years ago? What's being done and has been done is being done under the auspices of the original set of 'disciples'. Saying 'the religion is not responsible' is the biggest get out of jail card ever.

So I think Tyson is giving them a pass out of ignorance and a sort of 'feel goodism'. It 'feels good' to 'defend freedom of speech' when you don't bother to actually examine just what that thought is, or the actions to which it leads.

[trotsky]

32. You make a good point.

We do indeed try to control people's thoughts. Having laws, and teaching our citizens to obey the laws or face consequences, will arrest many kinds of thoughts well before they lead to actions.

So I think Tyson is giving them a pass out of ignorance and a sort of 'feel goodism'. It 'feels good' to 'defend freedom of speech' when you don't bother to actually examine just what that thought is, or the actions to which it leads.

Agreed.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

5. When he says

So, you have people who are certain that a man in a robe transforms a cracker into the literal body of Jesus saying that what goes on in Scientology is crazy? ... I don’t judge them, and I don’t criticize them.

He seems to be contradicting himself.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. No he isn't, not unless *you* think that believing that a man in a robe

transforms a cracker into the literal body of jesus is crazy. He has left it up to the reader to determine what is crazy, and is pointing out that 'crazy', in the non clinical sense, is entirely subjective when it comes to religious beliefs.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

8. He certainly implies that he thinks it is crazy

And in the next breath, says that he is not judging or criticizing them.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. no he says that religions have extraordinary beliefs

and that, essentially, "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". He is declaring scientology's beliefs no more or less odd than christianity's, and as you think scientology's beliefs are crazy you also think he is calling christianity's beliefs crazy. You are the one making the "crazy" judgement, you are merely projecting it onto him.

[LiberalAndProud]

23. From the perspective of unbelief ...

If those things sound ridiculous when he accurately describes a mainstream belief, that might be because it really is ridiculous. He made no value judgments, he accurately defined transubstantiation.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

33. In other words, I called it correctly

Thank you for agreeing with me.

[LiberalAndProud]

34. Do you believe in transubstantiation?

Do you think it seems like a rational thing to believe?



Neither do I.

[arcane1]

26. One statement is about an idea, the other is about people who believe the idea

No contradiction.

[gcomeau]

12. Very misleading title.

He in no way whatsoever "defended Scientology". He just said he didn't give a crap about it any more than anyone else's crazy religious beliefs. those are very different things.


He appears to have been afflicted by a little selective amnesia on Bush's science record though.

[LiberalAndProud]

14. Not if you measure by actual dollars.

Sequestration didn't start until after Obama was elected. Budget cuts from sequestration were and continue to be Congress' fault. Tyson placed the blame where it belongs.

[matt819]

27. I like Neil Degrasse Tyson

I like lots of folks. Don't like lots of folks.

But, you know, I don't think all of these people's opinions should be sought on everything under the sun. Unless, in Tyson's, case, you are discussing the sun.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. I so agree with you.

It offends me that the entertainment corps that we jokingly call the "press" feel that this is a topic they should address with a preeminent scientist. There are religionists who have declared war on science and they have willing accomplices in our media.