French School Deems Teenager’s Skirt an Illegal Display of Religion

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/30/world/europe/french-school-teenagers-skirt-illegal-display-religion.html?_r=0

By ALISSA J. RUBIN
APRIL 29, 2015

PARIS — A secondary school in northeastern France has sent a 15-year-old student home twice in the last two weeks for wearing a long skirt that the principal judged was “an ostentatious sign” of the girl’s Muslim faith.

The case has lit up social networks in France and infuriated many of the country’s Muslims, who see the school system’s censure of the girl as discriminatory.

A law adopted in 2004 forbids elementary and secondary school students to wear visible signs of their religious affiliation to school, including skullcaps for Jews, noticeable crosses for Christians and head scarves for Muslims. School officials, though, are increasingly construing the ban to apply to articles of clothing like long skirts and headbands, in ways that appear to vary from school to school.

“It’s a huge problem,” said Elsa Ray, a spokeswoman for the Collective Against Islamophobia in France.

more at link

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. 'Long skirts' are overtly religious?

Do non-religious women in France only ever wear miniskirts?

[cbayer]

3. I know. Doesn't this seem really over the top?

I think part of the issue here is that the law is being primarily applied to muslims.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. In this case yes.

France is determined to promote a strictly secular public school system.

[stone space]

2. Let kids be kids. The nutcases need to get over it.

These sort of Fundamentalist laws restricting religious attire are crazy.

[cbayer]

4. Agree. Bad law, imo. Where do you draw the line when it comes to

how teenagers express themselves?

[Warren Stupidity]

7. In this case, as per this law, at overt displays of religiosity. nt.

[stone space]

10. Well, I wouldn't do it to stiffle students' cultures, ...

...which seems to be the case here.

[cbayer]

11. Exactly. I think that France has gone too far.

I can support their promotion of secularism, but dictating what people can and can't wear is too much.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. They aren't "fundamentalist".

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

But your history of misusing words makes that observation irrelevant.

Public institutions in France are strictly secular. This law is not anti-islamic, it prohibits all forms of religious display in schools. They don't want religion in their public schools. Seems to me that is a reasonable policy.

[nil desperandum]

8. Minus

the head scarf she's a girl in a white jacket and long black skirt...

I thought the article said she removed the head scarf, thus the issue is only with the long black skirt...

Perhaps an easier interpretation of the law would be to define skirts or pant including length with respect to the knees above or below and distance.

Then the definition of long would be obvious, anything more than 6 inches below the knee inappropriate anything less, just fine...otherwise long black skirts are not uncommon.

Ambiguous laws lead to ambiguous or even capricious enforcement...clarity benefits all while serving to restrict the government to the clarified definitions.

Ambiguity in the law never benefits the citizen, it only benefits the government.

[cbayer]

12. The article does say that she removes her headscarf before entering the school,

and has never made an issue of it.

Is her wish to dress modestly really a reflection of her religion? Are they going to force girls to wear short skirts? Or are they only going to force muslim girls to do that?

Capricious enforcement is the real risk here, and I think that is what the parents and islamic groups are responding to.

I think the law is bad all the way around, but france is hell bent on repressing religious expression. That, I believe, will backfire on them.

[Fumesucker]

9. For historical reasons a certain hostility towards religion is baked into French culture

Interesting how school dress codes are seen as so appropriate sometimes and inappropriate at others depending on who happens to be violating those codes and how.

[cbayer]

13. This is true and the reasons for it are legitimate, imo.

But, as pointed out above, there is too much ambiguity in this law and, as you point out, there is a risk of it being enforced subjectively.

[rug]

14. Sounds like the failed Quebec Charter of Values.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Charter_of_Values

[cbayer]

15. Yep. France has had it in place for awhile, though I haven't heard

much about it.

I willing to bet the enforcement is not all that uniform.

[okasha]

16. Matters have come to a sorry pass

when the French government presumes to tell a Frenchwoman what she can wear.

I would say, imagine what would happen if Obama issued such a decree--except he'd never get it past the First Lady.

[cbayer]

20. IIRC, France had a law on the books that prohibited women from

wearing pants up until just recently.

Some rules need to be broken.

[Yorktown]

17. This discussion seems uninformed of the facts on the ground

First, France's strict secularism was born as a survival measure of its Republic against adversary religious (Catholic) forces. So much so that after the last kings in the mid XIXth, there still were (Croix de Feu) or are (Soral) Catholic parties still with an overt agenda of bringing Democarcy down.

As a result, the laws evolved and reached a kind of equilibrium with the 1905 law which managed to bring a lasting modus operandum under which the Roman Catholic Church could operate, but as a junior partner as far as education was concerned.

Today, radical Islam is trying to test the limits of that system through two Trojan horses: dress code and public prayers in school. Even though, and I must insist on this point, the moderate muslim leaders in France issued opinions that 1/ dress codes considered 'islamic' in certain regions of the world were not an islamic obligation and had to give way to secular regulations, and 2/ prayer times could be made flexible to be observed out and away from secular state schools.

There is a fallacy which is all to pervasive in progressive circles: the feeling that any minority demands should be approved if only to show cultural inclusiveness. The hugely important point this attitude misses is that the opinion of said minorities can be manipulated by extremists among them to fight the values of the Elightenment. Progressives should be wary of the wolves in sheeps clothings.

In short, this girl with a long dress and headscarf was also trying to follow prayer times at her secular school, even when the French imams said it was not compulsory. Shorter still: this girl was a political militant for supremacist Islam.

Support her all you want, boys and girls. But, should her attitude gain ground, fully expect women, gay, free speech rights to be curtailed in France.

And you're cheering her from the sidelines.

[rug]

18. Those sentences bear little resemblance to facts.

Opinions are welcomed as long as they're not masquerading as facts.

[Yorktown]

24. These facts came from 'Le Figaro', a leading French daily

More precisely, form Natacha Polony, one of their editorialists.

[rug]

25. And it's an editorial playing loose with the facts in service of rhetoric.

[Yorktown]

29. How do you know that?

Natacha Polony is a well respected journalist present on TV, radio and print.

I do not think she got there by making a habit of sloppy reporting.

[cbayer]

37. Well respected by whom. She is a highly partisan conservative who, from what I can tell,

would like to drive all the muslims out of france.

Are you a fan?

[Yorktown]

38. You obviously do not know her.

• Polony is on record as anticapitalist, favoring the 'degrowth' idea championed by the Greens.
She is against free trade and would be an anti TPP DU member.

• As to the claim she 'would like to drive all the muslims out of france', it's a wild claim.
She was a journalist at both Marianne and Canal+, two media in favor of multiculturalism.

• As for 'respected', I used this qualificative because she works for big names in press, TV and radio, on both sides of the Left/Right divide.

[cbayer]

42. You know her? You might want to correct the available info on the internet then.

Where are you getting your information?

I pretty sure she wouldn't be a DU member, based on the information I can find about her (which is pretty scarce for someone with all those credentials you attribute to her).

[Yorktown]

43. Just open her wiki page in French, and you'll see you're dead wrong

Public info. Public knowledge.

You're asking questions akin to "How do you know Oprah is black?".

[cbayer]

45. I did and I translated it. That is where I got my information.

Do you have another source about her, because I can't find anything.

Are you disputing her stance on GLBT rights? How about her stance on sovereignty? Do you disagree that she wants france to secede from the EU and basically has a "france for the french" agenda?

My conclusion is that she is an islamophobic bigot. YMMV.

[Yorktown]

48. You visibly couldn't make heads or tails of her wiki article

She was part of the staff of a prominent far left "france for the french" leader (Chevenement)

She wants to secede from the EU because she sees it as a tool of capitalist MNC's.

Sorry, but I don't have time to give you a crash course in European politics.

[cbayer]

51. Yes, I did have a hard time with it. Google translate did a very poor job, imo.

But I got what I could and I didn't like a lot of what I saw.

I don't need for you to give me a crash course in European politics, but I have asked repeatedly that you provide something to back up your rather outrageous claims about this 15 year old girl who wants to wear a long skirt to school.

And you haven't.

[Yorktown]

52. There is no worse deaf than the intentional deaf

I provided 12 hours ago a link to the fact finding article by the Figaro staff.

(not Polony)

Now, if you want to believe one of the two leading French dailies invents its facts, suit yourself.

[cbayer]

54. And I translated and read it, as I previously stated.

It offered nothing substantial to back up the claims you are making. It was highly speculative and talked about how a group of girls were challenging the dress code. IMO, it does not resemble a "fact finding article" in any way.

I think the media invents facts all the time and if you wish to believe that never happens, suit yourself.

[Yorktown]

55. LOL LOL LOL

The article STATES the girl was part of a clique of provocative extremist muslim girls.

Either your google translate failed you, or you were not paying attention.

[cbayer]

57. Show me where it states that. I have translated and read the article again and

it's just not there.

A clique? Perhaps. Provocative? Possibly, but that's not clear. Exrtremist? Show me.

The article actually questions whether this behavior violates the law at all. IMO, it doesn't and your accusations are without basis.

So you can laugh away. You can even get on the floor and laugh, but your are not able to back up what you say….

So, last laughs and all that.

[cbayer]

32. I see that you have linked to two editorials.

Unfortunately, I can not read french. Anything in English?

[Yorktown]

33. Google translate works rather well

Well enough to get the sense of the facts.

[cbayer]

34. I translated. If there is a hysteric here, it is the author of these editorials.

She is long on paranoia and conspiracy theory and very short on facts.

Frankly, I find her much scarier than the schoolgirl in the long skirt.

[cbayer]

19. Just to be clear about this case. She willingly removed her head scarf before

entering the school. She did this every day and without complaint.

I have not seen any information about her following prayer times. I have done a search for this specific piece of information and have found nothing, so would greatly appreciate a link.

A political militant for supremacist islam? Where are you getting this information? She is a girl who wants to wear a skirt to school. If you have anything to substantiate your claim, you need to provide it.

BTW, we are adults, not boys and girls.

Whether people are cheering her or not is open for debate. People do seem to be expressing the feeling that this rule goes too far in this case and concern that it may not be uniformly enforced, but applied more strictly to muslims.

I'm curious as to how her wearing a long skirt would lead to a curtailment of the rights of women, gays and free speech in general. If that is in fact true, then France needs to rethink it's position, imo.

[Yorktown]

27. What willingly? She complied with the school rules and regulations.

She doesn't deserve a medal for that, does she?

But the whole point of the dress is that it is an illustration of the coordinated effort by conservative muslim girls (or people influencing them) to try to make a mockery of the rules in place (headscarf ban) by adopting as many signs of extremely strict dress code as they can.

Taken in isolation, the dress length incident seems strange, but becomes crystal clear when placed in its context of muted war against secularism at school.

[cbayer]

31. Yes, she willingly complied with the rules and there is no indication that she

has suddenly decided to defy them.

You continue to make broad and unsubstantiated assumptions about why she is wearing that skirt. An illustration of the coordinated effort by conservative muslim girls to make a mockery of the rules? Really? Are you just making this stuff up?

You really need to back some of this up or back down. You are sounding much more driven by your own agenda than this french school girl does.

Should we ask her if she is now or has ever been a member of an Islamic extremist group?

[Lordquinton]

35. It's funny you bringing up McCarthy

Given that you and others still keep the red scare alive here.

[okasha]

21. And the opinion of majorities can be manipulated

by extremists among them. Witness the Terror that accompanied the establishment of the French Republic--and fueled the backlash that made Napoleon Emperor.

Otherwise, your post reads like Tea Party propaganda.

[TM99]

28. I am willing to hear your take on this situation

however, I would like to see some links to back up the facts you are presenting.

As is often the case in the daily outrage of the day on social media and forums on the internet, the whole story is rarely presented in full.

If she is as you describe, please just provide actual links that I can read to verify this. I am conversant in French so that is not an issue for me if they are only in French.

Thanks.

[Yorktown]

30. Here is the direct link to two article's

Polony's editorial

http://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/politique/2015/05/01/31001-20150501ARTFIG00146-natacha-polony-la-police-de-l-ourlet-ou-le-naufrage-de-la-laicite.php

The account of the raw facts by the same newspaper (mainstream center right)

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/04/30/01016-20150430ARTFIG00291-cinq-questions-pour-mieux-comprendre-l-affaire-de-la-jupe.php

The key points are presented in the second point (Alors pourquoi Sarah, 15 ans,..)

It states that this young girl belongs to a group of fudamentalist girls who tried different 'mob tactics' to circumvent the rules on a secular dress code.

A fact proves that the intent to circumvent the rules is evident. Weeks before being banned for one day, Sarah appeared at the school gates amid her group of friends all dressed in very long dresses, and they themselves mentioned it was something with a religious connotation.

After she persisted and got sent back for one day, Sarah now claims it's got nothing to do with religion. Whatever religion teaches, it doesn't seem to have taught this girl to be in good faith (pun intended)

[cbayer]

36. I just translated he wiki page as well. She is described there as a decidedly conservative

columnist who is adamantly opposed to GLBT civil rights.

Frankly, she sounds like a french tea bagger.

Sorry, I'm not going with her take on this, and I can't find anyone, except you, who is buying it.

[Yorktown]

39. Then, sorry, your research is shoddy.

1- if you're talking about Polony, she was a senior member of the electoral staff of the French equivalent to Elizabeth Warren (JP Chevenement)

2- as far as the facts go, the article I linked you to stating that this girl had been part of a provocatively extreme group of radicalized muslim girls was not written by Polony, but by the fact finding team of that daily.

Tying to (mistakenly) call Polony a tea bagger doesn't melt the facts away.


Again, I'm impressed by how much your train of thought mimicks that of Karen Armstrong:

religions are given a free pass, or, at the very least, a benevolently favorable hearing.

[cbayer]

44. I don't give religions a free pass, but I'm going to give this 15 year old a pass

and not assume that she is part of some islamic extremist jihad to challenge the dress code of french schools. There is zero evidence to support your claim that she has been a part of a proactive extreme group of radicalized muslim girls. Nothing.

As for Polony, she's been all over the place and you know that. There is one article making this preposterous claim about this young girl and it is backed up by nothing, that I can see.

[SwissTony]

22. And what if she just liked to wear long skirts.

A long-time friend of mine only wears long skirts. And I mean long. Down to her ankles long.

She's an atheist.

[cbayer]

23. I think that's the whole point.

It seems to become very arbitrary.

[cbayer]

40. I think that's the crux of the matter.

While some kinds of clothing are clearly religious, others may be fashion, personal choice or religious. In that case, I think it's best to err on the side of letting the kids wear them.

[Binkie The Clown]

26. From this athiest's point of view

that's just plain crazy!

Hopefully that would never fly in the U.S. because we have freedom of religion, and freedom of skirt lengths (although I don't recall which amendment guarantees the latter.)

[cbayer]

41. That would never happen in the US unless some anti-religious bigots gain power

and decide that no one can wear religious clothing in public places.

[Yorktown]

46. You're obviously willingly blind to the religiously inspired wars coming

I wouldn't care tuppence about quirky beliefs in prophets having sex with 9 year olds if it was not framed in a very real context of threat of violence.

Texas cartoonists anyone?

[cbayer]

47. What religiously inspired wars?

Where do you live, btw? Could it be the UK?

[Yorktown]

49. Wherever I Lay My Hat, That's My Home.

I move around.

[cbayer]

50. Well, I know some people in Northern Europe, and you sound a lot like them.

You know, those people that are very uncomfortable with the influx of those brown immigrants from the middle east.

[Yorktown]

53. LOL.

It would be difficult to imagine a more multicultural life than mine.

[cbayer]

56. I suspect that we have a lot in common in this area.

My life is also very multicultural.

What disturbs me about your position is my sense that you hold the belief that there is an imminent threat from muslims in general, even including 15 year old girls who are wearing long skirts. Your position that they are a part of some radicalized extremist group appears to be yours alone, as the article you link to does not suggest that at all. It makes me very uneasy, as I have heard this kind of talk from others who I feel are basically anti-islamic.

[Yorktown]

58. Sorry to be blunt, but you have not understood the article.

I could back up the gist of this article (a posse of radicalized muslim girls testing the limits)

with two official reports on the subject by the French RG police branch (from memory, 2002).

But I'm afraid it's also in French, and your google translate doesn't seem that solid.

Anyway, if you want to believe there is not a coordinated effort by radical muslims to try to sap secularism in Europe, good luck to you.

After all, Texas and Charlie Hebdo just happened by accident, didn't they?

[cbayer]

59. Sorry to be blunt, but I understand it just fine.

You have extrapolated it to mean something you would like it to mean, but the information in the article doesn't support your contention in the least.

Here, have this:

[Yorktown]

60. LOL. I? Extrapolated?

You live much more in lala land than I thought. Karen Armstrong on steroids.

The article clearly states this Satah belonged to a group of girls who came to school one day, all dressed in long skirts, expressely stating they did so on religious grounds.

The article goes on to say this same Sarah came one or two weeks later in the same long dress, this time claiming it had nothing to do with religion.

But you, with your superior understanding of French society, can assure the rest of us the whole incident had nothing to do with radical religious claims, ad only with secularist intolerance.

You are very satisfied with yourself as a rule. Why bother fact checking?

[cbayer]

61. Ah the white flag of ad homs.

See you around!

[Yorktown]

62. Not an ad hom

I just have very little patience for people who 'just' disregard evidence I serve them on a salver.

[trotsky]

63. So you've raised that flag a few times in this thread too.

Fascinating. OK for you, not for others.

[Binkie The Clown]

65. People are always tolerant of outsiders invading

somebody else's neighborhood.

I'm pretty sure I know how I'd feel about concerted effort by Scientologists, for example, to take over my town and impose their rules and morals on me.

[Binkie The Clown]

64. "tuppence"? Is that anything like "tupperware"? n/t