Religion
Related: About this forumWhat is the purpose of religion? An open question.
What is the purpose of religion? An open question.
That's it! Nothing more.
Please respond, those of you that see a purpose, and I would respectfully ask those who are NOT religious to just read the posts, and let those who are believers tell us the purpose of religion. We should be open to respecting and learning from those who claim to know.
Cirque du So-What
(25,908 posts)I'd say it's a tool used by the elite to make those with nothing feel better about it. After all, the reward lies in heaven, yunno. I make the distinction between religion and spirituality, which I consider a step toward self-actualization.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)But, I think religion is a hope for humanity. If you feel like you may break God's law, some will do the right thing for humanity to have civility. Religion makes death for some to take easier too. To erase the fear of death. See that wasn't so bad.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)For many, it creates a hope that oved ones who have gone on to whatever comes next are in a better place, and that we might see them again.
For some, it creates the hope that the evil are suffering unending torment. For others, it creates the hope that all of us will have our transgressions forgiven.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Sentenced to that punishment by a just and loving god..
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)There is the God of wrath, but there is also the God of mercy.
There is the God that punishes the wicked, and there is the God that we continually beg to "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
There is the God of "Grace": those who have His grace manifest that quality in their daily lives. Those with His grace are the only ones saved. There is the God of "Works": those who performs, of their own free will, acts that aid the sick, suffering, and poor work to cleanse their own sin, and earn salvation.
Confused yet?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)The Gaps are soooo 1990s
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Unless you mean it can give AN answer, meaning any answer, right or wrong, just as long as its an answer?
And if that is the case, anything can provide AN answer, especially if it need not be factual or realistic.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)How did we get here?
What happens when I die?
Is there a purpose to all of this?
Will I meet my loved ones and ancestors in the next life?
There are a lot of religons. Each has its unique answers to these (and other) questions.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)when we ask people for "answers" to other questions like "How does a flat screen TV work?"
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)We know how a flat screen works. We can explain how to create one and fix one. We don't spend a lot of time pondering the subject, because there are books and websites that contain that information.
What about the question, "What happens to our concious self after we die?" We have no real idea what happens when we die. If we could somehow die, roam around whatever comes next for a few years, and then come back, we could answer that question. Right now, we can't. By providing simple answers to unanswerable questions like "what happens after we die", religon frees adherents from spending time pondering that question, and allows them to spend more time in more fruitful pursuits.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)Some believe that all answers to all questions can be found through the application of logic and scientific method. I personally am a big fan of logic and science. It has brought us the high quality of medicine, computer technology, accounting, aeronautics, and personal appliances we all love.
Does it answer the question "Will I get to meet my friend who was murdered again after I die?" No, science doesn't answer that question. Religon answers that question ("perhaps" . Only my passing from this earth will answer that question for certain.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)When a question is difficult, making up a supposition is not an answer, and for some it is simply not better than "I don't know."
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)It's a difficult question. We don't know the answer. We suppose the value is "i".
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Imaginary and complex numbers work as tools to help us understand and predict non-linear systems of growth or flow. No one who uses them considers them an "answer," but rather an assumption (or supposition) that makes the current analysis easier.
Now compare that to the "answers" you've been talking about. When they encourage us only to stop searching, what good are they? And if they are supposition, then why call them "answers"?
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)especially if the problem is "what is the square root of -1?"
Some would say there is an answer. There is no square root for -1; the answer is "null". Just because there is a square root for 1 does not mean there is a square root for -1. Others have used "i" as a supposition - a faith based answer to an unknowable. In this instance, we suppose the answer to be "i" because the answer works.
If you think searching for an better answer than "i" is worthwhile, by all means do so. The mathbook says the answer is "i". That's good enough for me.
...and now, on to why we didn't decend from monkeys
both i and -i which have qualitative difference, and that's how you get complex plane and number theoretical anatomy of 2D plane. There would not be Riemannian manifolds and theory of relativity without the imaginary number.
You can derive the answer also from Euler's identity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_identity
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Thats not an answer, thats self-delusion.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)My flat screen television is broken. I could pray for divine intervention. That would be acting on faith alone. In all probability, my television would remain broken. I could go to the internet, and look up technical specifications for my television, or the number of a good repair technician, I am likely to find an answer that already exists to my question.
I could combine faith and practicality: I could find a flat screen television repairman at my church, mosque, synagouge, or temple.
Some people want answers to questions that cannot be answered scientifically. People often look to religon to answer questions such as "Why does Dick Cheney live on with a donor heart while my Uncle died of pneumonia at 20?"
Again, I'm attempting to answer the question put forth by the OP. I'm not attempting to advocate any particular faith position here.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Religion has never answered a question, that cannot otherwise be answered, with any accuracy, continuity, or factuality. It's all just supposition, which when looking for an actual answer, is worthless.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)Do experiments? Engage in research? Spend countless hours speculating?
..or would you prefer to think "they are in Heaven with our creator"?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Nothing happens, other than a steady decay. I don't need to "think" anything. It's reality, it's the way it is, it's factual, for everyone.
Now, unless you have some evidence that "they are in Heaven with our creator" that you would care to share?
humblebum
(5,881 posts)aren't we. The fact is that many people give credence to experiential knowledge, intuition, stories of others' experiences, and yes - reason, etc. ( atheists and skeptics really haven't cornered the market on reason) in making their about belief or unbelief. We all know that "steady decay" is usually the physical result, but not all of us recognize that as the end.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)The fact is that your five senses meme has as little to do with science as does religion.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Now that's news!
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)darkstar3
(8,763 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)experimentation. That's essentially what you are classifying as reductio ad absurdum.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)I'm referring to your continued meme posted in #36 here and posted again and again throughout this site. That is a fallacious statement under the heading of reductio ad absurdum. Your claim regarding the 5 senses has nothing to do with the scientific method, and since your use of fallacy has been identified, there's really no point in carrying the farce further.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Are you familiar with the definition of empiricism? And do you realize that observation (by utilizing the senses) is a key component of the SM?
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Go ahead, tell me what reductio ad absurdum means.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)using it as a straw man. Restating the term "empiricism" as "observation using the 5 senses" is nothing more than a valid simplification of the term.
"Empiricism is a theory of knowledge that asserts that knowledge comes only or primarily from sensory experience." Add a rational component, and voila, you have Logical Empiricism (framework for the Scientific Method). So, yes, empiricism is the attainment of knowledge by observation utilizing the 5 senses.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)Reducing something to its least common denominator for the sake of simplicity and emphasis is not the same as a "reductio ad absurdum" fallacy.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)what is "experiential knowledge"?
Anyway, the only reason you are aware of anything, including "intuition, stories of others' experiences, and yes - reason, etc." is because your brain is functioning.
When it stops, you are not aware of anything. Obviously, being dead is just like it was before you were born.
on the definition of 'knowledge'. Experiencing 'now' as is and happens without relating the moment of 'now' to other moments (in past or future) is esperiencing, and what Aristotle calls gnosis. Epistemic (again, in aristotelian terminology) or scientific knowledge involves drawing empirical conclusions and generalisations from comparisons between more than on moment.
Analytical knowledge of making strict divisions and definitions over phenomenological world does not have a good analytical definition of phenomenology of awareness and/or consciousness to begin with, which raises the question what kind of "knowledge" is the claim that they reduce to brain and brain alone.
From what we have learned from anesthesiology shows e.g. that when neo-cortex has been inactivated, patients (deeper brain areas? what?) can and do still react to environment and verbal instructions, but do not have access to conscious memories from those events. So was it "you" responding to environment during that period of inactive neo-cortex, or are "you" just the property of consciouss memories? What is the good analytical definition of "you"?
And what if evidence from NDE and memories of other lives is not outright rejected, but accepted as relevant for study of consciousness and awareness?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yes it was.
Because even when "you" are wide awake... you are completely unaware of a myriad of things going on in your own body to keep "you" alive. Your consciousness is not in charge and "you" are actually only aware of anything.... anything at all.... after the even happens.
And nobody worth listening to take memories of other lives seriously.
And NDE's can all be explained without invoking souls, gods or any other supernatural mumbo jumbo.
tama
(9,137 posts)can be aware and sentient even when some level of consciousness/awareness has been shut dow? And personal pronouns like me and you are rather just linguistic categories and thought patterns? Very good, these thought patterns are in complete agreement. So what about the body, does it consist of only material objects? What about e.g. electromagnetic fields and their role in sentient experiences?
PS: perhaps you don't consider Carl Sagan worh listening?
PPS: If souls, gods etc are defined as supernatural mumbo jumbo, then sure, let's use other terminology
humblebum
(5,881 posts)you have some experiential knowledge of the fact.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)You claim to know, but you don't. I don't know. Neither of us have experienced death. In any event, I attempted to answer the question posed by the OP, which was "What is the purpose of religon." I believe that most faith traditions, whether they are Eastern, Western, or Native American, answer the question "What happens after we die?" with an answer that indicates we'll go somewhere pleasant -- paradise, heaven, a happy hunting ground, Mt. Olympus, Nirvana, Las Vegas, etc.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)it fails miserably in actually GIVING an answer.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yes we do... because you cannot have consciousness without a BRAIN that is FUNCTIONING.
This Descartian dualism is a myth. Tho' consciousness is an elusive and interesting phenomenon, it requires a working brain to exist.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Placation leads to a lack of curiosity, which leads to a lack of exploration.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)Another way to look at it is that a question like "will I see my loved ones after I die" is unanswerable. By being provided an answer, you are free to solve questions for which answers can be found (like how to repair a flat screen TV).
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)As I stated in another response, I am merely endeavoring to answer the question posed by the OP.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Faith is the END of inquiry.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)It doesn't answer anything... except with made up stuff.
What "unanswerable" question does it answer?
Why we're here?
Nope
What's our purpose?
Nope
What happens after death?
Nope
How the universe came about?
Nope
Why we suffer?
Nope
Where the $$$ you just put in the collection plate goes?
Nope
Saying "god did it" doesn't answer a thing.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)neighborhoods any longer due to the country being fully sprawled. It provides a more easily accessible form of socialization. (I don't call work socialization for many reasons I won't go into here).
2) To give people a false peace of mind in a country where there is no peace of mind and no financial security.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)1) to make money
2) to make more money
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)TrogL
(32,818 posts)What scares me about undenominational "Bible churches" is there is no oversight from qualified theologians which is how they end up with some of their batshit beliefs
SamG
(535 posts)Is spirituality in need of structure? Must that structure be agreed-upon?
What is "oversight from qualified theologians"? Does this mean all other theologians are not qualified to be so?
What are "some of their some of their batshit beliefs"? How would we know which beliefs are legitimate and which are "some of their batshit beliefs"?
Again, what is the purpose of religion?
TrogL
(32,818 posts)structure:
-Rite
-agreed upon text/translation (eg. textus receptus)
-dogma/statement of faith
"qualified":
-as stated below, I'm basically excluding graduates of Bible Colleges because their curriculum lack intellectual rigor
"batshit beliefs"
Basically, if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't true (noting translation difficulties). The Roman Catholic church has some examples including...
-infallability of the Pope
-Mary Magdelene is a prostitute
-Mary continued to be a virgin (even after giving birth at least twice)
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)darkstar3
(8,763 posts)I must have missed the day when theology became more than a realm of completely divergent ideas with no method of reconciliation or verification. I must have missed the day when theologies from completely different faiths with completely different answers to the exact same questions suddenly agreed with each other, thus creating a field of study applicable beyond a single sect of a single fork of a single religious family...
And I also must have missed the day when calling someone a bigot was acceptable on DU. Perhaps next we'll see you call someone a "fucking asshole."
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Like you have missed the boat?
Theology is just arguing whether Santa comes down the chimney head first or feet first.
Pointing this out is not bigotry.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)Show me the result of such unification beyond a sect of a fork of a family. I certainly don't see them in your process theology.
TrogL
(32,818 posts)Theologians approach sacred texts through analysis to eventually reach conclusions. The Bible College folks mine them for clobber verses.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)if such a thing existed, it probably does, sadly.
The problem is this, their conclusions have no facts, no consensus, no testability. Its subjective and largely dependent on the perception and religious background of the theologian in question.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)perpetrated by the religions themselves. I think FoxedUp News is a religion.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Which is a government.
Religion is just ancient government.
And nowadays you can see that right here in the USA. The effects of which are dreadful and counterproductive.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That IS unpredictability.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)I think as long as you know how the one that gets the money thinks they're not too hard to read.
tama
(9,137 posts)of positivists seem quite predictable.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Religion is just another racket.
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)Daddy, why is the sky blue? Because God made it that way.
Mommy, why do I have to eat carrots? Because Jesus cries when little girls won't eat all their dinner.
Uncle Bob, why are there rainbows? Well, you see, there was this guy named Noah who lived a long time ago.....
Silent3
(15,148 posts)Specific religions, or rules thereof, might indeed be consciously constructed to serve intended purposes: improving social order, obtaining (hoped for) life after death, lining the pockets of the clergy, etc.
Those constructs, however, merely exploit the fact that "religion happens", regardless of whether anyone sets out to achieve specific purposes.
independentpiney
(1,510 posts)on the social and individual level. Ninian Smart and Joseph Campbell provide good explanations imo
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)and quickly gets perverted into a means of social control as religious organizations grow and thrive. Once the state gets its hands on religion, then it becomes a truly oppressive force. The Founding Fathers seemed to recognize this.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)Belief in God seems to fill some deep seated emotional need dealing with things which we can't understand and can't control.
Unfortunately I believe that belief in religion is basically falling prey to some huckster or other who represents themselve as being closer or better able to interpret god's desires. Since we had 3 different people who all claimed that God told them to run for President this cycle, we can safely interpret that most peoples' perception that they are hearing the word of God is erroneous.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)The greatest scam in the history of the world.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)hand excitedly and grandly, begging to be called on. The pleased teacher did call him, and he responded proudly "I don't know."
I, on the other hand, do know. Sorry I'm forbidden to answer.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)to honor your request, those of us you asked to respond will hardly lower ourselves into that pit of bigotry. If you want to know how I would answer, write me on our mail site and i will be happy to respond. To ask for simple respect is too much for the already prejudiced.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)and I'll thank you to stop telling people otherwise.
OmahaBlueDog
(10,000 posts)I will not presume to judge whether you are religious. Only you can know that.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)I answered some very specific points from you and two others that went far beyond the scope of the question in the OP.
And asking people on an open forum not to post is pretty much universally accepted as bad form.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)and of course all opinions are welcome.
But there is a difference between respecting a poster's request and not respecting it.
Courteous people know the difference. Bigots do not.
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Courteous people know the difference. Bigots do not.
I guess that makes you a bigot?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)However it's given you the opportunity to sling some more mud and feel important, so I expect you're happy.
You know, for someone so enlightened you're incredibly mean-spirited.
Thats my opinion
(2,001 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Pot, meet kettle.
Festivito
(13,452 posts)laconicsax
(14,860 posts)Festivito
(13,452 posts)laconicsax
(14,860 posts)Saying "leprechauns guard a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" doesn't allow you to connect to leprechauns because leprechauns don't exist.
Festivito
(13,452 posts)Two conceptualizations of what is considered the idea of a leprechaun are thereby connected by both being called the same name. Being grouped under the same moniker is a connection.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Science does that. And in a much more interesting and useful way.
For instance, science concretely shows us that we are all made of stuff from exploding stars. As Sagan put it "We are made of star stuff". That's as connected to the universe as you can get!
And science also shows us concretely that we are all from South Africa and related, not only to each other, but to every living thing on the planet from Chimps, to bananas to bacteria.
Sing along! "Alle Menschen werden Bruder".... literally, in science!
Festivito
(13,452 posts)My father liked to note that he searched for big answers and all he found were bigger questions.
We are connected to our part of our Universe. But, our sun, our galaxy, our globule could be born, live and die completely unconnected to another distant set of lights out there. Yet, I just connected myself to them.
All men are brothers. More than that.
Deep inside there's a vision that time is nothing but space and between every minute and mile there within it somehow there's a beautiful place.
And it's all such a delicate balance, 'cause it takes just as much as it gives, but to live it is real and to love it is to feel that you're a part of what everything is.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)To make money and consolidate power thru guilt and fear of death.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No we shouldn't! That's just being credulous!
Just claiming to know something is not enough for respect. If just claiming to know were enough, the court system would be joke. I hope you're never serving on a jury!!!!
You want respect? Earn it!
How can you type "An open question" and then restrict it? A little confused, aren't we?
I surmise you just wanted a feel good kumbaya thread that supported what you already believe. Forget it! The world is not like that.... even if religion tells you it's supposed to be like that...
You want a forum where everyone agrees? Try your local cult... or RW talk radio.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)He's been banned (again).
darkstar3
(8,763 posts)The guy was a Dr. Jekyll.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)(or the glbt community or the black community or women).
Total troll