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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:12 PM Sep 2015

All Scientists Should Be Militant Atheists

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/all-scientists-should-be-militant-atheists

The Kim Davis controversy exists because, as a culture, we have elevated respect for religious sensibilities to an inappropriate level that makes society less free, not more. Religious liberty should mean that no set of religious ideals are treated differently from other ideals. Laws should not be enacted whose sole purpose is to denigrate them, but, by the same token, the law shouldn’t elevate them, either.

...

Because science holds that no idea is sacred, it’s inevitable that it draws people away from religion. The more we learn about the workings of the universe, the more purposeless it seems. Scientists have an obligation not to lie about the natural world. Even so, to avoid offense, they sometimes misleadingly imply that today’s discoveries exist in easy harmony with preëxisting religious doctrines, or remain silent rather than pointing out contradictions between science and religious doctrine. It’s a strange inconsistency, since scientists often happily disagree with other kinds of beliefs. Astronomers have no problem ridiculing the claims of astrologists, even though a significant fraction of the public believes these claims. Doctors have no problem condemning the actions of anti-vaccine activists who endanger children. And yet, for reasons of decorum, many scientists worry that ridiculing certain religious claims alienates the public from science. When they do so, they are being condescending at best and hypocritical at worst.

...

I see a direct link, in short, between the ethics that guide science and those that guide civic life. Cosmology, my specialty, may appear to be far removed from Kim Davis’s refusal to grant marriage licenses to gay couples, but in fact the same values apply in both realms. Whenever scientific claims are presented as unquestionable, they undermine science. Similarly, when religious actions or claims about sanctity can be made with impunity in our society, we undermine the very basis of modern secular democracy. We owe it to ourselves and to our children not to give a free pass to governments—totalitarian, theocratic, or democratic—that endorse, encourage, enforce, or otherwise legitimize the suppression of open questioning in order to protect ideas that are considered “sacred.” Five hundred years of science have liberated humanity from the shackles of enforced ignorance. We should celebrate this openly and enthusiastically, regardless of whom it may offend.

If that is what causes someone to be called a militant atheist, then no scientist should be ashamed of the label.
30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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All Scientists Should Be Militant Atheists (Original Post) trotsky Sep 2015 OP
Science works because its practitioners focus their attention on specific questions struggle4progress Sep 2015 #1
The Kim Davis story... gcomeau Sep 2015 #6
Objective thinking is the key. nt ladjf Sep 2015 #27
Typical Krauss, so predictable, so shallow. Leontius Sep 2015 #2
Got anything but an ad hom to contribute, Leo? n/t trotsky Sep 2015 #3
The person standing on the beach can say the ocean isn't deep Goblinmonger Sep 2015 #4
I'm sorry the right answer isn't sufficiently obscure, regal, and AtheistCrusader Sep 2015 #8
Well, you would know. (nt) mr blur Sep 2015 #19
Yeah I read a lots of posts by anti-theists here Leontius Sep 2015 #23
On the other hand... rexcat Sep 2015 #24
Excellent response. n/t trotsky Sep 2015 #25
Thank you. rexcat Sep 2015 #26
"Science does not produce 'answers.' Science produces RESULTS." TygrBright Sep 2015 #5
Seems odd to say. trotsky Sep 2015 #7
It's one of those "technically correct but misleading in plain language" statements. gcomeau Sep 2015 #9
Well, at least we get ANSWERS from religion! trotsky Sep 2015 #10
actually, cutting oneself off from ones spiritual side is as bad as cutting oneself off from roguevalley Sep 2015 #12
Excellent! trotsky Sep 2015 #13
I don't know if your remark is good or bad. :D roguevalley Sep 2015 #14
it is interesting to me that atheists persist with roguevalley Sep 2015 #15
Maybe it is because you're regurgitating long debunked anti-atheist rhetoric. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2015 #17
Did you even read the article bvf Sep 2015 #18
Wow, what a broad brush. trotsky Sep 2015 #20
This is similar to the "Norwegian Beaver Cheese" discussion hole all over again... NeoGreen Sep 2015 #21
LOL it's true! n/t trotsky Sep 2015 #22
Sigh... gcomeau Sep 2015 #16
And 2 days later... silence. gcomeau Sep 2015 #28
Atheism has a body count? Really? LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #29
Isn't it amazing? trotsky Sep 2015 #30
It's ironic he quotes J. B. S. Haldane who explicitly built on the work of Gregor Mendel. rug Sep 2015 #11

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)
1. Science works because its practitioners focus their attention on specific questions
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:35 PM
Sep 2015

involving natural phenomena and seek answers by observing natural phenomena, without much regard for general philosophical issues: this enables people to cooperate in scientific investigations without becoming embroiled in political or religious disputes

The Kim Davis story has no relation whatsoever to that enterprise

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
6. The Kim Davis story...
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:04 PM
Sep 2015

...is just one of many illustrations of the real world consequences of large segments of society insisting on religious claims and beliefs being extended special exemptions to the basic rules of critical scrutiny and logic all other claims are subjected to under the methodology science operates by. You illustrate the problem even as you deny it with your emphasis on the realm of science being on natural phenomena as your excuse for declaring it doesn't apply to Kim Davis's beliefs or actions, thus carving out the Special Pleading exemption from reason for religion that Krauss is calling attention to here... (as if there was any such thing as anything other than natural phenomena that qualified as "supernatural" phenomena outside the imaginations of believers)


The contrast drawn was apt, claims there is no relation whatsoever to be examined would seem to rely on not bothering to have closely read the article or simply not being interested in hearing what it had to say.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
4. The person standing on the beach can say the ocean isn't deep
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:56 PM
Sep 2015

but that doesn't make them profound or observant or right.

Got any analysis to add to that?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
8. I'm sorry the right answer isn't sufficiently obscure, regal, and
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:28 PM
Sep 2015

Demagoguish for your personal preferences.

rexcat

(3,622 posts)
24. On the other hand...
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 10:21 AM
Sep 2015

I read a lot of posts by anti-atheists in this forum. The "anti-theist" label you like to apply to so many here is a rather crude way to end any rational discussion, not that you are in this forum to give any substance to the debate.

The problem with religious views is they are usually very personal in nature, for the most part not based on fact and sometimes not based on reality, and those with strongly held religious beliefs are rather thin-skinned about their religious views.

TygrBright

(20,759 posts)
5. "Science does not produce 'answers.' Science produces RESULTS."
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 03:58 PM
Sep 2015
"Science Isn't Broken"

Scientists understand the limitations of science.

interestedly,
Bright

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
7. Seems odd to say.
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:23 PM
Sep 2015

Science has indeed produced answers.

Why does the sun appear to move across the sky? Religion provided an answer at one time (Ra). Science provided the correct one.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
9. It's one of those "technically correct but misleading in plain language" statements.
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:41 PM
Sep 2015

As all scientific findings are considered provisional and subject to overturning by new data you can argue that science never produces an "answer" to any question. But of course if you tell the average layman that they're often gong to take that as "aha! so science never really knows what's happening and it's always changing it's mind!" or some shit. As opposed to the reality... that on a lot of topics we're just going to say the earth is round and objects with mass attract each other etc, etc, and new data isn't going to suddenly come along and overturn those findings even if we do want to insist on acknowledging the .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance it could hypothetically happen.

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
12. actually, cutting oneself off from ones spiritual side is as bad as cutting oneself off from
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 05:07 PM
Sep 2015

reason.

Pol Pot.

Stalin.

Lenin.

Mao.

Atheism has a body count too. Balance is preferred. Only a fool cuts them self in half and expects to be an asset.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. Excellent!
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 05:08 PM
Sep 2015

I had 12 posts in the betting pool. I win!

Oh, on edit, I almost forgot: https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/

“…it is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists.” ~ Christopher Hitchens

roguevalley

(40,656 posts)
15. it is interesting to me that atheists persist with
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 07:45 PM
Sep 2015

The notion that their point isn't covered in blood too, that it is without blemish itself. You assume I am religious. You are full of assumptions.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
17. Maybe it is because you're regurgitating long debunked anti-atheist rhetoric.
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 10:48 PM
Sep 2015

That might have something to do with it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
20. Wow, what a broad brush.
Thu Sep 10, 2015, 08:40 AM
Sep 2015

I don't think further discussion with you would be fruitful given your ridiculous distortion of what I've presented here. Take care.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
21. This is similar to the "Norwegian Beaver Cheese" discussion hole all over again...
Thu Sep 10, 2015, 08:57 AM
Sep 2015

...how do you respond (politely) to an argument about the moon being made of NBC?

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
16. Sigh...
Wed Sep 9, 2015, 09:00 PM
Sep 2015

Ok, I'm just going to set aside for now the cluelessness of confusing the consequences of dictatorial communism with the consequences of atheism and ask one simple question.


Define "connected to your spiritual side". If you can.


Does it require belief in a deity? For example... are Buddhists who don't believe Buddha was some kind of god "cut off from their spiritual side"?

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
28. And 2 days later... silence.
Fri Sep 11, 2015, 11:59 AM
Sep 2015

That's about what I thought. You don't have a shred of insight into any of the above's "spiritual side" or what connection they did or did not have with whatever the hell you think that is.

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
29. Atheism has a body count? Really?
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 04:33 AM
Sep 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Could you please quote me, the chapter and verse, from the:

[center][font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=6 color=crimson]Big Book Of Atheism®[/font] [/center]

where it advocates that atheists should do what they did?

Or are you just listing sociopaths who happen to be atheists?


Regardless, it is not possible to cut something off from oneself that, most likely, [font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=5 color=crimson]does not exist![/font][/font]

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. Isn't it amazing?
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 07:50 AM
Sep 2015

The founding documents of the Abrahamic religions all give very specific instructions on when it's OK (or even required) to murder someone. SPOILER: it ain't just in self-defense. Yet when pointing out the violence committed by religious people in the name of their religion, we are screamed at, called bigots, and told IT'S NOT RELIGION.

Stalin et al eliminated their political opposition; there are no instructions in atheism on when it's OK (or required) to murder someone. But then we are screamed at, called bigots, and told IT'S ATHEISM.

Up is down, left is right.

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