Religion
Related: About this forumAll Scientists Should Be Militant Atheists
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/all-scientists-should-be-militant-atheists...
Because science holds that no idea is sacred, its inevitable that it draws people away from religion. The more we learn about the workings of the universe, the more purposeless it seems. Scientists have an obligation not to lie about the natural world. Even so, to avoid offense, they sometimes misleadingly imply that todays discoveries exist in easy harmony with preëxisting religious doctrines, or remain silent rather than pointing out contradictions between science and religious doctrine. Its a strange inconsistency, since scientists often happily disagree with other kinds of beliefs. Astronomers have no problem ridiculing the claims of astrologists, even though a significant fraction of the public believes these claims. Doctors have no problem condemning the actions of anti-vaccine activists who endanger children. And yet, for reasons of decorum, many scientists worry that ridiculing certain religious claims alienates the public from science. When they do so, they are being condescending at best and hypocritical at worst.
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I see a direct link, in short, between the ethics that guide science and those that guide civic life. Cosmology, my specialty, may appear to be far removed from Kim Daviss refusal to grant marriage licenses to gay couples, but in fact the same values apply in both realms. Whenever scientific claims are presented as unquestionable, they undermine science. Similarly, when religious actions or claims about sanctity can be made with impunity in our society, we undermine the very basis of modern secular democracy. We owe it to ourselves and to our children not to give a free pass to governmentstotalitarian, theocratic, or democraticthat endorse, encourage, enforce, or otherwise legitimize the suppression of open questioning in order to protect ideas that are considered sacred. Five hundred years of science have liberated humanity from the shackles of enforced ignorance. We should celebrate this openly and enthusiastically, regardless of whom it may offend.
If that is what causes someone to be called a militant atheist, then no scientist should be ashamed of the label.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)involving natural phenomena and seek answers by observing natural phenomena, without much regard for general philosophical issues: this enables people to cooperate in scientific investigations without becoming embroiled in political or religious disputes
The Kim Davis story has no relation whatsoever to that enterprise
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)...is just one of many illustrations of the real world consequences of large segments of society insisting on religious claims and beliefs being extended special exemptions to the basic rules of critical scrutiny and logic all other claims are subjected to under the methodology science operates by. You illustrate the problem even as you deny it with your emphasis on the realm of science being on natural phenomena as your excuse for declaring it doesn't apply to Kim Davis's beliefs or actions, thus carving out the Special Pleading exemption from reason for religion that Krauss is calling attention to here... (as if there was any such thing as anything other than natural phenomena that qualified as "supernatural" phenomena outside the imaginations of believers)
The contrast drawn was apt, claims there is no relation whatsoever to be examined would seem to rely on not bothering to have closely read the article or simply not being interested in hearing what it had to say.
ladjf
(17,320 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)but that doesn't make them profound or observant or right.
Got any analysis to add to that?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Demagoguish for your personal preferences.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)so I know shallow.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)I read a lot of posts by anti-atheists in this forum. The "anti-theist" label you like to apply to so many here is a rather crude way to end any rational discussion, not that you are in this forum to give any substance to the debate.
The problem with religious views is they are usually very personal in nature, for the most part not based on fact and sometimes not based on reality, and those with strongly held religious beliefs are rather thin-skinned about their religious views.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)rexcat
(3,622 posts)TygrBright
(20,759 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Science has indeed produced answers.
Why does the sun appear to move across the sky? Religion provided an answer at one time (Ra). Science provided the correct one.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)As all scientific findings are considered provisional and subject to overturning by new data you can argue that science never produces an "answer" to any question. But of course if you tell the average layman that they're often gong to take that as "aha! so science never really knows what's happening and it's always changing it's mind!" or some shit. As opposed to the reality... that on a lot of topics we're just going to say the earth is round and objects with mass attract each other etc, etc, and new data isn't going to suddenly come along and overturn those findings even if we do want to insist on acknowledging the .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance it could hypothetically happen.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)NOMA forever!
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)reason.
Pol Pot.
Stalin.
Lenin.
Mao.
Atheism has a body count too. Balance is preferred. Only a fool cuts them self in half and expects to be an asset.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I had 12 posts in the betting pool. I win!
Oh, on edit, I almost forgot: https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com/2014/10/21/the-atheist-atrocities-fallacy-hitler-stalin-pol-pot-in-memory-of-christopher-hitchens/
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)But hello and all good to you anyway, Trotsky.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)The notion that their point isn't covered in blood too, that it is without blemish itself. You assume I am religious. You are full of assumptions.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)That might have something to do with it.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Trotsky posted the link to?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I don't think further discussion with you would be fruitful given your ridiculous distortion of what I've presented here. Take care.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)...how do you respond (politely) to an argument about the moon being made of NBC?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)Ok, I'm just going to set aside for now the cluelessness of confusing the consequences of dictatorial communism with the consequences of atheism and ask one simple question.
Define "connected to your spiritual side". If you can.
Does it require belief in a deity? For example... are Buddhists who don't believe Buddha was some kind of god "cut off from their spiritual side"?
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)That's about what I thought. You don't have a shred of insight into any of the above's "spiritual side" or what connection they did or did not have with whatever the hell you think that is.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Could you please quote me, the chapter and verse, from the:
[center][font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=6 color=crimson]Big Book Of Atheism®[/font] [/center]
where it advocates that atheists should do what they did?
Or are you just listing sociopaths who happen to be atheists?
Regardless, it is not possible to cut something off from oneself that, most likely, [font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=5 color=crimson]does not exist![/font][/font]
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The founding documents of the Abrahamic religions all give very specific instructions on when it's OK (or even required) to murder someone. SPOILER: it ain't just in self-defense. Yet when pointing out the violence committed by religious people in the name of their religion, we are screamed at, called bigots, and told IT'S NOT RELIGION.
Stalin et al eliminated their political opposition; there are no instructions in atheism on when it's OK (or required) to murder someone. But then we are screamed at, called bigots, and told IT'S ATHEISM.
Up is down, left is right.