Let’s Talk About Christian Atrocities

[Cartoonist]

While doing some research for a cartoon I'm working on, I came across this hard-hitting article from earlier in the year. Forgive me if this is old news.

http://aattp.org/the-right-wing-doesnt-want-to-talk-about-christian-atrocities-so-lets-talk-about-christian-atrocities/

The right-wing’s been freaking about Obama bringing up the crusades and the Inquisition, to show that Christianity doesn’t have a blood-free history. Whether it’s posting videos with skewed definitions of the Crusades or claiming Islam is still worse because reasons, they’re in a blind rush to defend the tribe and, in the process, they’re not orchestrating a very effective defense.

History is full of atrocities committed by Christians for Christ, against not just other religions but against Christian themselves. Let’s take a look at some of them, shall we?

[rug]

1. According to the dateline on the article, it was discussed seven months ago.

Why not talk about the Crusades and the Cathars as well?

[edhopper]

2. What is the expiration date on atrocities

you seem to have a problem with any article, no matter the content, that is more than a week old.

Funny from someone who often cites writing that date back centuries.

[Cartoonist]

4. Feel free to add to the list.

New atrocities get added each day.

[shraby]

8. I would have to add the Spanish Inquisition and England's Bloody Mary to the list.

Those should rank with Christian atrocities.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. It does talk about the Crusades and the Cathars as well

I can't see your point.

[cleanhippie]

9. Because there isn't a point, muriel. It's compulsive trolling.

And nothing more.

[rug]

10. That's rich, coming from you.

[pipoman]

3. Only inexplicable jihadi apologists think comparisons

Between pretty much anything that happened before the invention of electricity, internal combustion, and electronic communications and 21st century mass murders in the name of Allah are indicative of anything or reasonable comparisons....

Bottom line, if the crusades are all you have, you have nothing. You can punish the crusaders if you find any survivors, right here right now the rest of us living in the 21st century will concentrate on modern day threats.

No doubt there are atrocities committed in the name of most religions...all should be unacceptable by the reat of us....why would anyone feel the need to respond to unacceptable muslim violence by pretending the crusades have anything to do with anything today?

[Cartoonist]

5. The original Crusades aren't all I got.

The Christian, George Bush, with Jesus whispering in his ear, killed more innocent people than all the Jihadists combined. He even called it a modern crusade. That happened in the 21st century.

[pipoman]

11. Why bother talking about the actual crusades at all?

There isn't a single meaningful point to be made by such a comparison....it was almost 1,000 years ago ffs....why would anyone feel the need to try to justify 2015 jihad with 1100 ad history?

[Cartoonist]

12. Nobody is trying to justify atrocities.

The only point being made here is that religion is responsible for atrocties throughout history. Including the present day.

[pipoman]

13. What is the purpose of making the point?

[Cartoonist]

15. Is religion a force for good?

As an atheist, I say no. The evidence is there. Trying to say that one religion is worse than another just proves the point.

[pipoman]

20. As someone who has been the recipient of the good free

Neonatal ICU services provided by a local Catholic hospital...free to my son because I was uninsured and low income at the time and I am not a Catholic. My sister was hospitalized in National Jewish in Denver in their pediatric respiratory unit for an entire year...the best in the nation. The entire stay was free to my parents. We are not Jewish. My employer is a religious nonprofit...over 50% of our services are provided to people unable to pay...they are of any or no religious affiliation, including atheists.

Religious organizations are second only to government in the amounts of assistance given to those who are unable to pay.

To not recognize the good done in your immediate vicinity by religious oganizations of all types is to deliberately ignore them.

[pipoman]

21. Shall I assume that you, "as an atheist",

Can't acknowledge the good religious groups do?

[Cartoonist]

22. Genocide beats free soup.

And you don't need God to make soup.

And the medical care you received owes more to science than religion.

A few cubes of ice makes my lemonade more refreshing. Getting buried under an avalanche of snow is fatal. Yin and yang. The good that religion can be credited with is buried beneath it's victims.

[pipoman]

23. Problem is that there are no good atheist charities...I mean actually putting their money where

Their mouth is....at least in no meaningful way. Science isn't free. Science is very proud of their developments and you can just die if you can't afford it. Without religious funding of science through the vast worldwide network of religious healthcare operations, your heathcare options would be much different and nonexistent on much of the planet. Further without the charity of religious people around the world of all faiths, vasrly less people would be inside tonight with food and clothing.

Deny as you might "as an athiest" that religions do good things....it just demonstrates how dogma and beliefs can shade anyone's ability to recognize truth and facts...the exact same type of facts athiests like to point to in religion...it isn't about religion at all, is it? It is about beliefs...

The good that religion can be credited with is buried beneath it's victims.

Only if you have no grasp of the reality of the number of people they save daily. ..

[Cartoonist]

24. I see you have a hard time saying what's on your mind.

Lots of edits in your posts. Nothing wrong, just noticing.

Only if you have no grasp of the reality of the number of people they save daily.

What about the number they kill daily? And atheists don't have organizations. You have no idea what atheism is. It's just a non-belief in imaginary beings. We don't have a manual that tells us who to hate, and we contribute to charities. Some of us even contribute to religious charities, so stuff that crap about putting our money where our mouth is. You're doing a pretty good job of hating here, and you're making it personal. I object to religious philosophy and it's churches, not people, except certain religious authorities.

Speaking of people who put their money where their mouth is, Alfred Nobel was an atheist. He left his fortune to award those who help humanity.

[pipoman]

25. How many would that be? ...."the number they kill daily"

Ridiculous.

And no, I know exactly what atheism is...it is a belief/belief system. It is evangelized, and argued, and it is the basis of lies. There are militants and passive observers. Athiest believers often chastise religious believers and ridicule the beliefs of others. There are those who put bumper stickers on their cars and spend big money to put up billboards....

Hating? Lol...no, I will leave that to people who refuse to look out their window to test the veracity of their own beliefs.

[Cartoonist]

26. You don't know what veracity means either.

ve·rac·i·ty
vəˈrasədē/
noun
conformity to facts; accuracy
---

I'm looking out my window right now and I can't see any facts supporting the existence of God.

As for how many get killed daily? I can't see that far from my window, but there's this group called ISIS that's been pretty busy.

[mr blur]

32. And . . . you are of course completely wrong.

You have no idea what atheism is.

But it's always fun watching people who have no clue struggling to justify their ignorance.

[Leontius]

28. Alfred Nobel is also the prime cause of most of the violent deaths and war causalities in history.

Talk about more harm than good.

[Cartoonist]

29. You always amaze me

He more than recognized that his dynamite was destructive when used against humans. That's not why he developed it. But it is why he left his fortune to those who would do good.

I bet you also blame the inventor of the automobile for all those traffic deaths. I also bet that you have NEVER blamed the Bible for anything bad.

[Leontius]

38. Good to know that you think the Nobel prize cancels out the untold millions of dead.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. wow. What a load.

so according to you healthcare is provided primarily be religious organizations. Is that really your position?

[pipoman]

34. Religious charities are second only to government in the amounts of free health care

given to the needy...Surely you aren't stating otherwise? Virtually every city and state is full of religious charities providing health services. I know this drives militant athiests nuts because of their favored memes about religion and science...but alas, religious healthcare operations dispense cutting-edge science every day....

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. And why do you think that is?

I find your conclusion that religious charities are doing the lion's share of providing healthcare to the disadvantaged because they are inherently better motivated or better equipped decidedly dubious. Statistics suggest religious charities are able to do these things because they are better funded, and they are better funded because religious people tend to be biased in favor of religious charities.

And then there is the is-ought problem.

Yes, religious charities are providing healthcare to the disadvantaged. That doesn't mean they should be providing healthcare to the disadvantaged. Nor does it mean I should shut the fuck up about their bad behavior simply because they are the only game in town.

Besides, if these charities were serious about helping people, and not cynical ploys to win converts, political influence, or the warm fuzzies people feel when they are recognized for doing good, they wouldn't have to identify as religious organizations.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Many religious charities are receiving huge amounts of taxpayer dollars.

"In 2010, Catholic Charities had revenues of $4.7 billion, $2.9 billion of which came from the US government" -wiki

So when theists make ridiculous claims about the good religion does, it is important to look under the covers and see who exactly is doing what and how they are funding what they are doing.

[pipoman]

40. Would that be Medicare and Medicaid? Lol

[Warren Stupidity]

43. In the US yes that would be one huge source of health services provided by secular institutions.

Why do you find that funny?

Oh wait - no Catholic Charities, the example cited, receives huge amounts of federal funding completely outside of medicare and medicaid.

[pipoman]

45. I don't find it funny...I find it odd that anyone would think

Religious healthcare nonprofits shouldn't be able to bill for reimbursement...most smaller healthcare facilities and a lot of big ones can't cover their own costs with the reimbursement rates. CMS even has programs which cannot be applied for by a for-profit entity because they know there is no profit in the program...these programs are generally serving underprivileged patients....

Bottom line is that without religious nonprofits, healthcare in this country looks much different.... your taxes either go way up or people are denied services based on their ability to pay.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Oh so first secular governments

then religious institutions. Quite different than your original assertion. Would you care to compare total dollar outlays, religious institutions vs secular governments? I think perhaps not.

[pipoman]

41. No, I've never asserted that the taxpayers don't

Provide Medicare and Medicaid. What is the point? The fact it can be compared makes the original point....which was that most religions do far more good than bad....if you are in a city limit in the US you are probably less than a mile from a religious healthcare nonprofit providing free services..

[Cartoonist]

42. most religions do far more good than bad

What the Catholic church is doing now in Africa is tantamount to genocide. Denying condoms so that aids and other diseases continue to spread is murder. Intimidating governments to ban gays is as reprehensible as it gets. You need to step outside the church and experience the real world. Looking out your stained glass window isn't cutting it.

[pipoman]

46. If you want to hand out condoms, head on down there...

Why in hell should it be up to the Catholic Church to hand out condoms? Oh wait, is it because nobody else is shouldering the cost of healthcare there? Are they giving away food and medicine there? Shocking that there isn't a line of athiests waiting to hand out condoms....

[Warren Stupidity]

44. The point is that the services provided by secular institutions dwarf anything provided by religious

ones and that the religious charities, at least in the US, are frequently receiving a major part of their funding from the government as well. Your original point, the one I responded to, was:

"Without religious funding of science through the vast worldwide network of religious healthcare operations, your heathcare options would be much different and nonexistent on much of the planet."

No they wouldn't. Religious funding is not providing anywhere near what secular institutions funding and providing.

[pipoman]

47. The real point is there is no money in most institutional/residential

Healthcare... there are losses....In senior residential services, all for profit facilities have means testing...if you cant pay for several years you dont get services. Keep pretending that religious healthcare operations aren't responsible for delivering huge amounts of services otherwise unavailable to medicaid recipients..just don't catch yourself seeking medical help at a religious facility I guess....wouldn't want to upset your sensibilities...

[Igel]

6. Nobody denies what the Xians did.

However, the goal of pointing them out is to stop future ones.

Most of the atrocities that are current aren't Xian, per se. Fundie Xians didn't stream in to establish a Xian Papalcy (or whatever we'd want to call the thing--I seem to not have a word corresponding to emirate, which is a particularly religious entity).

It was primarily ethnic, to be honest, in a society which, under Ottoman tutelage, thoroughly merged during and after the Enlightenment religious and tribal identity. Bosnians were Muslims, Serbs were Xians. Croatians, until conquered by the Ottomans, in the 1600s weren't part of that empire and were, in any event, not Xian but Catholic. Hence a different ethnicity, according to the Muslim rulers.

It didn't help in the least that fighters did stream in to help the Bosnians, that many Bosnians have the kind of surnames from their fathers or lexical items from the culture and civilization they had first allegiance to. Hint: It wasn't Slavic.

If you want to compare what happens in 2015 with what happened in 1015, great. But then feel free to call those doing 1015-actions in 2015 backwards, atavistic, uncivilized, lacking any sense of modernity or benefiting from 1000 years of civilizational advancement. They take tools from 2015 to kill as they would have in 1015. That's where your argument leads you.

[Cartoonist]

16. No it doesn't

If you want to compare what happens in 2015 with what happened in 1015, great. But then feel free to call those doing 1015-actions in 2015 backwards, atavistic, uncivilized, lacking any sense of modernity or benefiting from 1000 years of civilizational advancement. They take tools from 2015 to kill as they would have in 1015. That's where your argument leads you.
---

OK. The invasion of Iraq was carried out by
backwards, atavistic, uncivilized, lacking any sense of modernity or benefiting from 1000 years of civilizational advancement. They took tools from 2003 to kill as they would have in 1015.

---
I don't know, that doesn't sound right.

[Promethean]

30. It doesn't need to be most, just many.

I don't know if the atrocities caused by the influence of American christians and the catholic church on current day Africa constitute a majority (likely not) but the tremendous unnecessary suffering there in the name of dogma definitely qualifies as many.

[Runningdawg]

14. If we are going to talk about Christian atrocities

let's not forget the genocide and imprisonment of Native Americans. Some people know about the genocide but few know about boarding schools. In an attempt to "assimilate the savages" children were ripped from their mothers arms and taken to Christian Boarding Schools were they were little more than slaves. They endured public humiliation, being starved, beaten, raped, tortured, mutilated and more. An 1893 court ruling increased pressure to keep Indian children in Boarding schools. It was not until 1978 with the passing of the Indian Child Welfare Act that Native American parents gained the legal right to deny their children’s placement in off-reservation schools. It was also in the late 70's that the American Indian religious freedom act was passed and the old religion once again became legal.
I urge everyone interested in atrocities committed by Christians and the US government to do their own research into a topic that is rarely discussed. Search topics: Native American Boarding Schools, Native American Church, Quanah Parker and Col. Richard Henry Pratt whose motto was "Kill the Indian, save the man".

[Cartoonist]

17. Believe it or not

There is a Native-American DUer who considers missionaries as heroes. She's a Christian.

[Runningdawg]

18. There are a lot of them out there

My dad narrowly escaped boarding school but not the Christian indoctrination.
My grandparents left the Carolina's before the forced march, by the time they had made it to SW MO, missionaries snatching children was common. My grandparents avoided that by becoming Christians and acting as white as possible. No native language, no long hair, no mention of elders or the old religion. They did what they did at the time to protect their children.
Had I lived through that horrible period myself, I might have made the same decision.
My dad had never even worn jeans until he was probably 50 years old. He wore slacks, a white shirt and a tie everywhere he went. He was also a Baptist Deacon. As an adult I stuck with the side of the family that regained their senses and reverted to tradition. Luckily for all, there was no division between the Christian and the Traditional side.

[Cartoonist]

19. Glad to hear from you.

Yes, sometimes there are tough decisions to make. I'm also glad everyone's getting along.

[trotsky]

27. Silly man.

As has been made clear by a few individuals right here in this group, there are no "Christian Atrocities." True Christians can't do bad things, you see? As soon as a Christian does something bad, they become a non-Christian.

But atrocities under atheists (cue the Stalin! Mao! Pol Pot! Tourette outburst) were DEFINITELY because of atheism, and not because of a desire to eliminate political opposition in a repressive regime.

See? Simple.

[Promethean]

31. And they leave out little bits like

that Stalin replaced all the clergy he killed with his own people. Funny how modern theists leave that part out. Its almost like they don't want to admit that oppressive leaders have used religion repeatedly in the past to control people. Got mitt uns.

[trotsky]

37. Or as Hitchens so brilliantly put it...

“It is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists.” ― Christopher Hitchens

[cpwm17]

48. The worst atrocity this century was the unprovoked war against Iraq

which was enthusiastically supported by Christopher Hitchens, and he never let go of the WMD hoax until his dying day.

He is just another selfish asshole, just like all the other selfish assholes that conduct and support all of the other atrocities in this world.

We now have a lot of selfish assholes in competition to be the world's worst war monger:



Though, not coincidently, there is a lot of god talk in this crowd.

[trotsky]

49. And Hitchens' misguided opinion on Iraq has exactly what to do with the quote? n/t