Are Scientologists atheists?

[rug]

DOES SCIENTOLOGY HAVE A CONCEPT OF GOD?

Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival. As L. Ron Hubbard wrote in Science of Survival:

“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

Unlike religions with Judeo-Christian origins, the Church of Scientology has no set dogma concerning God that it imposes on its members. As with all its tenets, Scientology does not ask individuals to accept anything on faith alone. Rather, as one’s level of spiritual awareness increases through participation in Scientology auditing and training, one attains his own certainty of every dynamic. Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being.

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-beliefs/what-is-the-concept-of-god-in-scientology.html

Contrast that with Biuddhism:

Good Questions Good Answers

Do Buddhist believe in god?

No, we do not. There are several reasons for this. The Buddha, like modern sociologists and psychologists, believed that religious ideas and especially the god idea have their origin in fear. The Buddha says:

"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".

Dp 188

Primitive man found himself in a dangerous and hostile world, the fear of wild animals, of not being able to find enough food, of injury or disease, and of natural phenomena like thunder, lightning and volcanoes was constantly with him. Finding no security, he created the idea of gods in order to give him comfort in good times, courage in times of danger and consolation when things went wrong. To this day, you will notice that people become more religious at times of crises, you will hear them say that the belief in a god or gods gives them the strength they need to deal with life. You will hear them explain that they believe in a particular god because they prayed in time of need and their prayer was answered. All this seems to support the Buddha’s teaching that the god-idea is a response to fear and frustration. The Buddha taught us to try to understand our fears, to lessen our desires and to calmly and courageously accept the things we cannot change. He replaced fear, not with irrational belief but with rational understanding.


http://www.buddhanet.net/ans73.htm

In regard to the concept of a deity, is the Eighth Dynamic fundamentally different from Enlightment? Is going "Clear" fundamentally different from Nirvana?

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma6/enlightnirvana.html


This http://www.discussatheism.com/threads/atheism-vs-scientology.294/ doesn't answer the question.

Nor does this http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6044

Or this http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology#Is_Scientology_a_religion.3F


I assme atheism by definition is simply nonbelief in god(s).

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Your excerpt contradicts your claim.

You instead have to dispute their definition of supreme deity, which is a pathetic self serving argument that assumes your concept of supreme deity is the correct one. None of you can provide any evidence at all for your alleged supreme deities, so your fraternal disputes are just a ridiculous amusement.

Contrast that with the Buddhists, who simply say "nope, no gods". See how that works?

[rug]

3. Read it again and go to the links.

In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity.

An "urge toward existence as infinity" is scarcely a concept of God, let alone a god.

If you were interested in discussion, rather than apologetics, you would provide less a source of ridiculous amusement.

See how that works?

[Fix The Stupid]

6. Wait a minute...

The scientology loons themselves say this, in bold below:

"DOES SCIENTOLOGY HAVE A CONCEPT OF GOD?

Most definitely. In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being


Then you say this:


"An "urge toward existence as infinity" is scarcely a concept of God, let alone a god."

Why are you dismissing their seriously held beliefs? Isn't that 'arrogant'???

Who are you to tell them who they are to worship and what they are to believe???

[rug]

7. I must be a literalist.

A "concept of God" is not God. Particularly when the "This" in the next sentence refers to "concept", not God.

Why are you reluctant to embrace fellow atheists?

[Yorktown]

10. When Hubbard mentions a 'Supreme Being', you don't see a God?

Please clarify, then: what is God if it's not a supreme being? A supreme thingy?

Better still: cut the chase and define God.

[rug]

11. No. Read the thread, it's been clarified.

Maybe you're experiencing thetan interference.

[Yorktown]

14. No, it's not been clarified.

It will be when you answer my question about th edifference between a 'God' and a 'Supreme Being'

Better still, if you cared to answer my second question posted above: what is a God?

[rug]

31. Tsk, can't help you go clear. Get an audit.

[Yorktown]

88. I am so sad you can't define 'God' for me

I so hoped to see the light.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Same shit different day.

They claim they believe in God. On that claim alone they are not atheists. You refute their concept of God, but even that doesn't suffice to make them atheists, it just makes their gods false, according to you. By that standard you are an atheist too.

[rug]

32. They claim they believe in "infinity".

Calling it a banana doesn't make it a banana.

By definition, one who has no belief in god(s) is an atheist.

[David__77]

75. I don't think Scientology is atheist.

I see two definitions of atheism:

1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism?s=t

I that that per definition #1, Scientology philosophy is not atheist. There simply is no Scientology doctrine or belief that there is no god, in my opinion.

Per definition #2, I would say that Scientology philosophy is not atheist. Disbelief is defined as "the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true." I do not think that Scientology philosophy refuses belief; rather, I do not think that Scientology philosophy really dwells in the realm of belief.

L. Ron Hubbard said this: "What is true for you is what you have observed yourself."

http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/basic-principles-of-scientology/personal-integrity.html

If one has a personal experience of god, I don't think that there's anything in Scientology that would invalidate the truth of that experience.

[Yorktown]

8. Religion can be defined as believing in unprovable things, and Scientology qualifies:

The pile of theological crap below is on par with the stories of Noah and Moses

(to the difference that the story of both Noah and Moses fly in the face of facts,
while the story of Xenu is so outlandish it is hard to disprove)

Xenu (/ˈziːnuː/), also called Xemu, was, according to Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who 75 million years ago brought billions of his people to Earth (then known as "Teegeeack&quot in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes, and killed them with hydrogen bombs. Official Scientology scriptures hold that the thetans (immortal spirits) of these aliens adhere to humans, causing spiritual harm.

These events are known within Scientology as "Incident II", and the traumatic memories associated with them as "The Wall of Fire" or "R6 implant". The narrative of Xenu is part of Scientologist teachings about extraterrestrial civilizations and alien interventions in earthly events, collectively described as "space opera" by Hubbard. Hubbard detailed the story in Operating Thetan level III (OT III) in 1967, warning that the "R6 implant" (past trauma)was "calculated to kill (by pneumonia, etc.) anyone who attempts to solve it".

[rug]

12. The question is not whether it's a religion but whether it's atheist in nature.

Which, as you know, is simply nonbelief in god(s).

Xemu is not called one. He is the Dictator of the Galactic Confederacy!



There's nothing about atheism that requires rationality. It does not require disbelief in everything, just disbelief in god(s).

[Yorktown]

13. See my answer #10

[DetlefK]

2. This excerpt from Scientology reminds me of something Giordano Bruno wrote.

In "De umbris idearum" ("On the shadows of ideas&quot Giordano Bruno postulated a reality consisting of hierarchic layers/steps. Each layer contains it's own set of "ideas".

At the peak would be the one God. He represents infinite unity and order. He casts shadows that take on the form of astrological symbols and give magical powers to the initiated.

In the next layer, each symbol casts new shadows, which are the elements, minerals, animals... IIRC.

Each element andsoforth casts new shadows, which form new "ideas". In this layer it's adjectives/attributes.

The lowest, outermost layer contains "real-life" objects and inventions. This layer also represents infinity, but in the form of an infinite chaos.



----------------

Now that I think of it: The hierarchic cosmology geared towards one God at the top... The notion that you gain special powers as you rise through the steps and master the secrets of the universe... Seems like L. Ron Hubbard borrowed from somebody here.

[rug]

4. From what I've read, he dabbled in Buddhism before writing Dianetics.

Either way, I don't see a god.

[edhopper]

5. In further reading

I would say they are not atheists. the believe in the concept of gods, but allow for various beliefs.
In reading several articles I found none stating they did not believe in a God.

If you want to call them atheists, that is your right.
But I don't think people who believe in a Supreme Being, a non-corporal spirit and the supernatural are atheists.

It's all such bullshit, and so many levels of garbage that it can be disected in conflicting ways.

I highly doubt you will find any atheist that see Scientologists as kindred spirits.

[rug]

9. I could not find any further explanation of "Supreme Being" on that site.

They say "Supreme Being" refers to the "Eighth Dynamic", which in turn refers to "the urge toward existence as infinity" which in turn refers to the "concept of God", but not to a god itself.

We both know why they're using weasel words to avoid addressing the question.

Yet, in the end, there is no belief in god(s) asserted.

Similarly, Buddhism with its path to Enlightenment and Nirvana has no belief in god(s). But they're not weasels about it.

[edhopper]

15. But they also claim

they are compatible with Christianity. Hardly an atheistic stance.

I can't see calling them atheists. It is a scam masquerading as a religion. It is all bullshit.

But as I said, atheists don't aline with them and they don't with atheists.

If this is just a curious look at this small fringe cult, all I can say is it is a fraudulent invention by a scifi writer to make a fortune, with concepts made up as he went along.

If you are trying to make some larger point about atheism, it's a nonstarter.

If it makes sense to you to call them atheists, go ahead. I don't expect others will.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. The motivation is likely to establish some counter

to the fact that his RCC is a bigoted institution with a long history of abusing people.

[rug]

35. Lol, poor warren.

Sad obsessions.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. For example the involvement of the RCC

in the residential school system in Canada as is being documented by the truth and reconciliation commission. That program has been described as a genicide of First Nation people and the RCC is elbow deep in blood.

[rug]

24. They say they are compatile with a whole range of beliefs, including nonbelief in god(s).

[edhopper]

47. so how is that representative of atheist?

I don't get why you need to define them as such.

If they don't care about belief in God,maybe they're a-religious.

Or it is all a scam to grif as many people as possible and we really shouldn't try to make sense of their silly, bullshit beliefs.

[rug]

48. Because itself has no belief.

They're definitely a religion, as religion is understood, but it is a religion that is without a god, ergo, a-theist.

I do think it is a scam but this group, largely successful, is in an interesting study in the difference between religion and theism, not to mention the parameters of atheism.

[edhopper]

52. they substitute belief in billion year old alien spirits

With Gods. Sort of pantheistic. Or like Shinto maybe.

It seems under your definition, many ancient religions are atheistic.

I don't see this in line with what we see as atheism today.

I assume you are not trying to link the two.

[rug]

55. And with the substitution comes atheism.

That's a good question about ancient religions. I'll have to look into it.

As to "atheism today", there is no single version. It is not a universal ideology as seen in the West.

I don't see Scientology as particularly linked to atheism of any type. It's more of a common thread than a link.

[edhopper]

65. what do you mean 'common thread'?

[gcomeau]

18. No.

Accordingly, only when the Seventh Dynamic (spiritual) is reached in its entirety will one discover and come to a full understanding of the Eighth Dynamic (infinity) and one’s relationship to the Supreme Being.

Question answered.

[rug]

23. Keep reading. Is the Supreme Bing described anywhere?

I'll help you.

8.The eighth dynamic is the urge toward survival through the Supreme Being, or more exactly, infinity.

[gcomeau]

25. It doesn't have to be.

A religiously defined "Supreme Being" is by definition some kind of deity figure. The characteristics of it are irrelevant to the question at hand. Atheists don't believe deity figures exist.


Scientologists do. Therefore not atheists, regardless of what properties or characteristics or personality quirks they wish to describe their Supreme Being as having.

[rug]

28. Read the edit. It is "infinity".

[gcomeau]

29. It is a Supreme **Being** described as having the characteristic of "infinity"

That's a deity figure.

a.k.a. a god.

a.k.a. that thing atheists don't believe in.

[rug]

33. No, they literally believe in "infinity", not the characteristics of infinity.

Don't you take them at their word?

[gcomeau]

36. Their word was "Supreme Being".

Their word was "the concept of God is expressed as..."

Their word was "the Scientology concept of God rests at..."



etc...


I'm not the one not taking them at it.

[rug]

38. "or more exactly, infinity."

Their word was "the concept of God is expressed as..."

Their word was "the Scientology concept of God rests at..."

Careful, if you take gobllinmonger at his word in post 19, he might think you're a jackass (his words, not mine).

[gcomeau]

67. You appear to think you're making some kind of point.

I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is.

You can bold the word concept, but that doesn't change that the concept they are talking about IS GOD. As stated right there in their own words in that very sentence.

You can direct me to Goblinmonger's post... but he's agreeing with my argument.


So... what the heck is your point here? That you've given up denying they're not atheists?

[rug]

68. Do you see a difference between the concept of milk and milk?

[gcomeau]

69. Do you understand...

...that when we're talking about the God religions believe in we're always talking about the concept said religion has of God so your question is irrelevant?

[rug]

72. Not all religions have god(s). Scientology is one of them.

Now back to my question. The answer is . . . .?

[gcomeau]

78. FFS

When Christians come pestering me to accept Christianity do you think even once one of them has brought their *actual* God along to introduce him?

"Hi this is God. "

"Well nice to meet you God, that's a firm handshake you have there. "

"WHY THANK YOU, NOW ABOUT THIS NOT BELIEVING IN ME THING..."

No.

They bring along their CONCEPT of God.They describe. They storytelling. They argue. They do NOT introduce the real deal directly. They are the milk advertising agency that came without the samples, just the description of their product. The concept, not the actual white liquid.

Same goes for Muslims.

Same goes for Hindus.

And same goes for the guys in your Op saying "Our concept OF GOD is..."

And anyone who has a concept of God they believe in is by definition not an atheist.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

37. Why, he's right here:

[rug]

39. Lol. Do you know who this is?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

40. I think that's Barney Google

with the goo-goo-googley eyes.

[rug]

41. The Supreme Barney Google.

Good memory.

[Lordquinton]

79. Is God described anywhere?

I have seen people here try to describe it just like the Scientologists here when cornered with that very question.

[Goblinmonger]

19. They say they aren't.

I'm not such a jackass as to not take them at their word. YMMV

[Fix The Stupid]

20. Exactly. Case closed. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

21. If they somehow claim they are atheists, I'm not kicking them out of the club.

I mean, I have no clue what their crazy religion is all about, but if they say they believe in a supreme being and that belief means they aren't atheists, then you have to be some kind of special asshole to tell them they are full of shit.

Though, clearly, this OP has some agenda or lesson he's trying to push.

[rug]

22. Tou should scoot over then. Read their site and see if you can find a god.

[beam me up scottie]

27. Goblinmonger drops mic, leaves the stage...

[rug]

34. That raises two questions.

1) What other things do you take at its word?

2) Exactly what kind are you?

[Goblinmonger]

80. Oh, that's cute. You're trying to be clever.

Listen, a religion says they aren't atheists and that they believe in a god. Who the fuck am I to tell them differently. I think the god of the RCC is fantastic creation of mythology no different from the Greek gods, but, hey, y'all want to believe in a god, go nuts. Just because I don't think the stories you wrote are really true doesn't make you atheists.

Scientology seems to be frickin' batshitcrazy babblings written by a 3rd tier sci-fi writer. But not much more batshitcrazy than zombie Jesus roaming the earth after an astral being came and fucked his mom so he could be born. But, again, you want to believe that stuff, then go nuts.

But to come in her (for whatever frickin' reason you have) and try to say that they are atheists when they clearly state they aren't, sounds like the same narrow-minded, ignorant, arrogant bullshit that has other Christian denominations saying that Mormons aren't Christians. Or, for that matter, that Catholic's aren't Christians. I expect better on this site. I don't expect to come and see people saying things about Scientologists that smack of what people the ilk of Huckebee would say about Catholics.

What happened to all this "respect all religions" bullshit that you and your crowd are always preaching in this forum? Why do you draw the line at Scientologists? Because they are an easy target?

[rug]

81. No cuter than you, goblinmonger. The difference is, you're no good at it, mic and all.

[Promethean]

26. Pointless quibbling over narrow definitions of words.

So what if Scientology doesn't perfectly fit some specific definition of "religion" or "theism." It still portrays many of the worst aspects of religious groups: in group vs out group mentality, psychological abuse of members and it drains the time and resources of members.

I don't need to label Scientology as anything other than an ideology that is overtly harmful to human society to be opposed to it.

[rug]

30. Is nonbelief in god(s) pointless. Is atheism pointless?

[cpwm17]

42. Atheism has no real point, outside of eliminating what many consider to be harmful beliefs.

Atheism is just a non-belief in god(s). Any other baggage anyone wants to attach to atheism is their problem.

Considering the total lack of evidence there is for any god and the compelling reasons to not believe in any gods, atheists are still on solid ground, as far as the god belief goes.

For me, figuring out that religion was pure BS was a huge relief. Before that I was too young to know that what my parents told me was nonsense. The thought of hell really sucks.

[rug]

46. There are many harmful beliefs that have no religious content.

Fortunately most people, religious or not, resist them.

I obviously disagree with your opinion of religion but I'm glad you gained a sense of relief, or release.

[cpwm17]

50. I'm not one that claims religion is the center of evil in this world.

Last edited Sat Oct 17, 2015, 09:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Different forms of selfishness, such as racism, tribalism and greed are the sources of evil. Religion can be a useful tool to rationalize selfishness and there is a lot of evil supported in various religious texts. Still, most evil isn't religious.

People often find other rationalizations to support evil. Many war-mongers certainly aren't religious. I very much prefer a peace loving believer over a war-mongering atheist.

[rug]

53. I agree.

Including preferring a peace-loving nonbeliever to a war mongering believer.

Life is short.

[Humanist_Activist]

44. I can see how it could be compatible with both atheism and theism...

as a non-theistic religion, note that Buddhism is similar in that some local variations do have gods and other beings that are revered or worshipped within the framework of Buddhism.

Generally speaking, their ambiguous definition of this "Supreme Being" is on purpose, so that their followers can fill in the gaps as they feel like it. Similar to how Freemasons do it(they require belief in "something" greater than themselves for membership).

I do wonder, though, I mean some religions aren't "complete" nor are their beliefs completely incompatible. I mean, so I guess, theoraticallly you could have some flavor of Christian also be a Scientologist, similar to someone who is Shinto and Buddhist in Japan, or something.

[rug]

45. I'm pretty convinced that theism and religion are not identical.

Much for the same reasons you posted.

When people get together all sorts of things emerge, often not for the reason they got together.

Most religions do have a lot in common, more than the difference, even accounting for the many bizarre manifestations of it.

If you get a chance, check out the World Parliament of Religions which met yesterday and today in Salt Lake City.

http://www.parliamentofreligions.org/

As for Scientology, my cynicism tells me they are deliberately vague on god to appeal to as many people as possible. For the same reason they don't promote Xemu and the galactic confederation. No one mentions the fine print until after the contract is signed.

[Humanist_Activist]

49. Theism is just an aspect that can be part of a religion or not, same for the lack of it.

To give a rather interesting example, look at the family of religions that we call Hinduism. It is, roughly, a shared mythology, with huge variations in beliefs, particularly about god(s), that are acceptable within it. Hindus can be atheists, "hard" polytheists, "soft" polytheists, monotheists, henotheists, pantheists, etc. This isn't even getting into the variations in ritual, specific beliefs about specific deities, etc.

Brahma is considered the Ground of all Being, the Supreme God, the God Head, and also the head of a pantheon of gods. It is supposedly impersonal, but able to manifest Itself personally, the beliefs about this being vary widely.

[rug]

51. That is a good example.

I have a friend who is Hindu who is adamant that it is monotheistic, insisting that gods and goddesses were simply manifestations of the single godhead. He is very persuasive.

[Humanist_Activist]

54. And he would be right, just like if a different Hindu told you it was polytheistic, they are also...

right.

It gets confusing.

[rug]

56. It is but it fascinates me.

[Humanist_Activist]

57. Another fascinating religion is Shinto, its name means "way of the gods"...

but what's interesting is that its a religion without a transcendent god at all, but rather "kami" which is sometimes translated to gods or demons, or various other words. Translation is inexact, because in this religion, these gods/spirits/demons aren't above nature, but a part of it, its a highly developed animistic religion. In a strict sense, it could almost be considered atheistic, but it really depends on what your definitions of an acceptable god are. None of the kami are all-powerful, after all.

[rug]

58. I didn't know that/ I thoght it was a variant of Buddhism.

[Humanist_Activist]

59. No, Shinto is Japan's native religion, Buddhism came in later and supplemented it...

Most people in Japan are both Shinto and Buddhist. Shinto provides a background mythology and links to ancestors, while Buddhism, oddly enough, provides an afterlife, of sorts, it get complicated.

Zen Buddhism is the Japanese variant on Buddhism.

What is really interesting is how Japan's pop culture treats religions, all of them, including its own, as material to be called upon for creative ideas. You want a game that centers around the primary kami in Shinto? Well then, play Ōkami. It would be, I guess, similar to creating a video game in the United States where you get to play as Jesus, literally.

Same with the anime, though I'm eternally amused by many anime treating all Christianity as if its Catholicism, and, of course, getting the details really, really wrong. But it can be forgiven as simple ignorance in most cases. Usually something to do with priest fighting vampires or demons, things like that. There's also a lot of Japanese film, anime and video games that center around Roman and Greek mythology, probably because there is quite a bit that's similar between them and Shintoism(squabbling deities), so easier to translate and easier for the primary Japanese audience to relate to.

[rug]

61. "both Shinto and Buddhist"

I can see them coexistiong.

I bet the anime artists (animeists?) get that from Japanese history.

You probably know the story of Xavier visiting Japan in the 16th century and receiving many Catholic converts. After Japan shut down contact with the West after the colonial incrsians a relatively large Catholic community, centered around Nagasak,i survived - without priests - for nearly two hundred years. When the missionaries returned in the nineteenth centry they were startled to see Catholics there already.

So I understand their equating Christianity with Catholicism.

Korea's another story. For some reason the Presbyterians made great inroads there. Sun Myun Moon himself was Presbyterian before forming the Unification Church,.

[Humanist_Activist]

63. OK, in my fact checking of my own posts to you, I just came across this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Shaddai:_Ascension_of_the_Metatron



Game looks cool and it appears to have been released in North America, which is somewhat surprising.

I'll need to buy it and a used PS3. Wish it got a PC release.

A lot of games from Japan that centered on Biblical mythology have never been released here, mostly due to fears that it may offend Christians.

[rug]

64. Lol, ok that has nothing to do with Francis Xavier.

[Humanist_Activist]

66. No, I've heard of him, and the story, and the suppression of the Catholics by...

Buddhists, sanctioned by the government of the time, after the closing of the ports.

But, you see what I mean, many Japanese pull from whatever mythologies they can to create a compelling story, characters, settings, or whatever. None of it is "sacred" or untouchable. They are also able to make really good entertainment out of it, because the focus is on entertainment first, the sources for the stories are secondary.

[longship]

73. I would not raise it that far.

After all, it was invented (whole cloth) by L. Drunkard Hubbard.

[Humanist_Activist]

82. True, but that's not a counter to my point...

if he knew how to do anything it was to market.

[longship]

83. You are correct, of course.

But what is important is that Scientology was whole cloth an invention by Hubbard, and likely a deliberate scam. James Randi is famous for telling a Scientologist who was harassing him, "I met L. Ron Hubbard on two occasions. Both time he was drunk."

[AnnieBW]

60. Scientologists Believe in a God

The Great Intergalactic Lord Xenu!

[rug]

62. Ah, but he was Dictator, not God.

[longship]

70. Scientology is an fucking evil cult.

There is no other way to characterize it.

Just ask Tom Cruise. He will convince you.

[rug]

71. I'd rather ask Laura Prepon.

Has the freeze set in there yet?

[longship]

76. Bad rug. Bad, bad rug.

[David__77]

74. Per a definition of theism, Scientology is theistic.

I'm not going to cite passages of L. Ron Hubbard; rather, I'll give you my viewpoint.

Scientology, I think, recognizes human beings as creators of universes. And I also think Scientology recognizes that the human being is not a body at all- it is a spirit. I don't find that to be a materialist philosophy. I find the overall philosophical standpoint to be theistic per a definition of theism, and at the same time do not believe that belief or worship are at all integral to Scientology practices. That is my own personal experience.

[rug]

77. It is not necessary to be a materialist to be an atheist.

It doesn't dictate the route to nonbelief, requiring only nonbelief.

Personally, I find the classis philosophical arguments against a god to be far more compelling than the scientific, material-based ones.

[LiberalAndProud]

84. Hubbard didn't omit the creator, but the evil arch-alien is the centerpiece of OT3.

Scientology is a fascinating study in religion building. As I tend to believe Paul nee Saul was a Hubbard prototype, listening to ex-Scientologists describe the experience is really fascinating.

Did you know that Hubbard professed to be the reincarnation of Buddha?

[rug]

85. That I hadn't heard.

[LiberalAndProud]

86. It's fascinating to observe how people come to believe what they believe.

Between the various denominations of Russellites, Millerites, Moonies and Hubbardites, to name only a few, there is a wealth of information. I find it a compelling sociological study. As an unbeliever, it's difficult for me to understand how mainstream religionists of various stripes can assert that the belief system that they have either adopted or inherited should hold more gravitas than any named cult. It seems to me that the psychological mechanisms at work are identical.

[LiberalAndProud]

87. A quote from L. Ron Hubbard

“No culture in the history of the world, save the thoroughly depraved and expiring ones, has failed to affirm the existence of a Supreme Being. It is an empirical observation that men without a strong and lasting faith in a Supreme Being are less capable, less ethical and less valuable to themselves and society....A man without an abiding faith is, by observation alone, more of a thing than a man.”

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-beliefs/what-is-the-concept-of-god-in-scientology.html