How is it possible for a supernatural, omnipotent being to fail at anything?

[AtheistCrusader]

Imagine you are omnipotent. Imagine you've created worlds, and stars, and life itself with the sheer power of your unlimited will. Imagine you want that life, a special project that you care dearly about, to know you and have a relationship with you.

How could you fail? How could your message get lost in the signal to noise of thousands of hypothetical religious deities that the life you created have imagined? Billions of humans believe in mutually exclusive caricatures of gods that cannot simultaneously exist or be true.

It would be one thing for a being like that to take away our free will and force us to believe, assuming free will is even the goal, but that's not necessary. How could a being of such unlimited potential, so badly bungle so many attempts to make itself known to us, over thousands of years? Knowing it is there and wants to have a relationship with us doesn't take away free will, you can still choose to ally with or not. To worship or not.

Why the tablets, and the smoking pillar and the unverifiable personal visitations and claims by people and supposed angels and all that effort and noise and stupidity, when an omnipotent being that ACTUALLY wants to be known, and is ACTUALLY omnipotent, cannot help but be known?

[bvf]

1. Haven't you ever fucked up really badly and...

http://m.

All part of the Plan!

[Warren Stupidity]

2. the babblers have an answer for all these sorts of silly human questions

in·ef·fa·ble
inˈefəb( ə )l/
adjective
too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words

[skepticscott]

4. Except when it suits them

to describe him in words.

[onager]

9. Gawd thought the Virgin Mary was extremely effable.

Good thing, too. Otherwise we might be stuck with some pagan holiday instead of Xmas.

[DetlefK]

3. God hasn't failed.

He has a plan and everything is working out according to that plan. Nobody except him actually knows that plan but everything is going according to plan. Now shut up and sit down. Everything is going according to plan, trust me. Do you have a plan for the universe? Well he has a plan. A great plan. And everything is going according to that plan. Sure, we have been in for some rough times, but that was all part of the plan. How do I know all this? Because he's the guy with the plan.

[cleanhippie]

7. So far, his plan is a disgraceful failure.

Much like the RW conservative plan, it seems to only work for those at the top. Everyone else gets fucked.

[whitefordmd]

5. I think it's the free will thing that .....

Last edited Sat Dec 5, 2015, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Messes up the plan.

[edhopper]

6. But it makes those

who figure out his plan and what he really, actually wants oh, so very special.

[EvilAL]

8. How can a perfect god/being

Create something that is not perfect?
The world is not perfect, humans are not perfect. A perfect being cannot create imperfection unless it is not perfect itself.
So God is not perfect after all.

[Pendrench]

10. Hi AtheistCrusader - That is a great question.

If I may, I was wondering if I could propose a follow up question:

If we knew (without a doubt) that there was in fact a supernatural, omnipotent being who created the entire universe - would that being be worthy of worship?

I imagine if a person has had a relatively good, happy, pain free life, they would say "Yes"....but if someone has spent a lifetime in pain (either physical or mental), lived in poverty, and/or some sort of misery, they might say "Absolutely not".

I think it is easy for believers (such as myself) to sometimes glibly say that "God has a plan" or "It's God's will"....but like I said, I've had a very good life, and I wonder how my faith would be tested (or if it would even exist) if I encounter REAL suffering, not just small setbacks. I would like to think so...but I honestly don't know.

By the way, I don't post much, but I do read the comments here often, and I think it's good (if not critical) to question/challenge ones beliefs, so I greatly appreciate the questions asked in this forum from all sides of the argument.

So, thank you again!

Tim

[AtheistCrusader]

12. No worries, and thanks for engaging.

Good to see some fresh blood in here from time to time.

My worldview leads me to think there is no plan, and no god, but there are certainly possibilities beyond the 0/1 true/false god exists or not question.


To your follow-up question, I had a version of that on the micro level, is my father worthy of my respect/appreciation? I never went hungry as a kid. He kept a roof over our heads, clothes on our backs, and made sure we got an education in. On the other hand, he was a drunken wife-beating monster, and I didn't feel a single shred of emotion when I held his hand as he died of cancer. He participated in my creation, in some ways helped raise me, and as a union worker with a good income, I got a lot of advantages in life for being born under his roof. Worth my respect, with the following baggage he brought into the family with him, as an abusive terror? Can the two be separated? Partial credit? No credit?

Does that question template works when you snap up to the macro level and consider a possible creator-god, do we consider just the things that happen in the universe 'naturally', or do we consider the behaviors indicated in, say, the old testament? Do we then judge that god, or celebrate/be grateful for what we consider the 'good', and ignore or consider the 'bad' along with?

Interesting questions. I have an answer that works for me, but I'm always curious what others think, and how they arrived to their conclusions.

Hope you stick around, the group could use some new voices.

[Pendrench]

13. Hi AtheistCrusader - Thank you for taking the time for your thoughtful reply.

I'm very sorry to hear how your father treated you and your mother...I can't even imagine how horrible that must have been. It says a great deal about you, however, that you were there to hold his hand as he died.

And you are correct - there are many interesting questions that should be examined/considered (and I'm glad that you have an answer that works for you).

By the way, your questions reminded me of a prayer that I came across a few years ago (attributed to a Muslim saint/mystic, Rabiah al-Adawiyah):

O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty

When I first read it, I asked myself...do I worship God because I'm afraid that if I don't I'll be punished? Or do I worship God because I want a reward for being a good boy? If so, then am I really worshiping God, or am I just looking out for myself?

The prayer makes the point that God is worthy of worship because God is God...and that alone should be sufficient (with no thought as to my own reward or possible punishment).

Of course (if I accept that reasoning) that leads to the question: How then do I properly worship God?

Burnt offerings?
Prayers?
Attendance at church?
Money in the collection plate?

For me (and I'm speaking only for myself) I like to believe that if there is a God, then perhaps the answer can be found in the exchange depicted in Matthew 25:31-46.

In other words, the best way for me to worship God is by feeding the hungry; giving drink to the thirsty; taking in strangers; clothing the naked; and visiting the sick and imprisoned.

Not because God wants me to (and will reward me if I do or punish me if I don't)...but because it is the right thing to do...to be "other-centered" instead of "self-centered".

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts of mine (sorry for rambling!)

Thank you again for initiating a very interesting (and engaging) discussion.

Tim

[cleanhippie]

15. It sounds as if you follow the "do unto others" approach.

I do too (although here, it may not show very well😉 .

But that idea existed long before the Christian God was imagined. The "golden rule" as many like to call it, never needed any God to proclaim it to be for anyone to follow that.

I guess I don't see how that serves as a way to worship your God, when that "way" was around long before your God was.

Can you help me understand better your point?

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Oh we've been 'done unto' by the 'old guard'.

Hence all the bad blood in here.

They don't see it that way, I'm sure.

(The golden rule is at LEAST as old as ~750bc, in Asia)

[Pendrench]

17. Hi cleanhippie - sorry for the late response!

I was out most of the evening, and I just logged back on

First of all, thank you very much for taking time to respond to my post.

Basically, I was trying to speculate as to what sort of worship an "all powerful" deity would want...and it seems to me that it would be to care for everyone else who the deity created, to the best of my ability (especially those who are hungry, thirsty, naked, etc.). I would also expand that to include taking care of the environment.

In other words, if there was/is a God, I would think that the best way to worship that God would be to take care of who and what was created by that God.

Which is not to say that I think that the idea of (and adherence to) the "golden rule" is a product of (or exclusive to) religion. As you correctly pointed out, that this idea existed before the emergence of the concept of a Christian God.

But speaking only for myself, as someone who is a believer in a Christian God, if God does exist, then I think that the best way I can worship that God is to do my best to care for others - not because I want/expect a reward, or fear being punished if I don't - but because it is the right thing to do.

Does that make sense? I hope I explained myself better this time...but if not, please let me know.

Thank you again for your response - have a great evening!

Tim

[Yorktown]

11. Crusader, an old pal of mine, Epicurus, is on line 3 with an answer:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus

[backscatter712]

14. I like George Carlin's take.

With all the crap in the world, he could only conclude that it was the work of an office temp with a bad attitude, who was incompetent and doesn't give a shit.