Mesa Musings: I too was once an atheist (or an agnostic)

[rug]

By Jim Carnett
April 23, 2012 | 11:42 a.m.

Atheists are getting to be as evangelistic as most evangelicals.

They seem hell-bent — forgive the awkward reference — to exhort fellow non-believers to "come out" and announce to the world their rejection of divinity.

Bruce Gleason, in his April 14 Daily Pilot "On Faith" column "Time to come out, come out" (which more aptly could have been called "On Un-Faith&quot , encourages atheists to "be yourself, let others know how you believe and make this a better world by promoting a rational, reason-based belief system."

Nothing wrong with that.

http://www.dailypilot.com/opinion/tn-dpt-0424-carnett-20120423,0,3106549.story

[dmallind]

1. Well evangelism is about converting rather than acknowledhing I'd say.

Some atheists certainly ARE (d)evangelical of course, but just like gays coming out is not about making heterosexuals into homosexuals, neither is atheist coming out about turning believers into non believers. Apples and oranges really - and again I have no qualms in stating there are atheist evangelical apples too - but the Gleason column is a non-(d)evangelical orange.

[Ezlivin]

2. He wasn't a "thinking" atheist

It wasn't as if he'd sat down and considered religious belief with all of its variations and decided against it. It was more like he'd been drifting through life without reflection and one day it dawned on him that he'd never constructed a world view. Was there anyone who'd already built a framework he could accept? Why, yes! And off he goes as an "ex-atheist."

[Silent3]

4. The lack of thinking appears to continue.

This guy treats whatever religion he has now as a crutch, he barely conceals that.

Need help through a hard time? Grab yourself some God! Life doesn't seem to have enough meaning? Pick up a six pack of conveniently pre-packaged meaning from your nearby house of worship -- problem solved!

[AlbertCat]

6. Bingo...

Apparently, he's down and so he turned to magic to make him feel better.

He admonishes atheists for bothering believers when they are down. Tell that to all the clergy wandering the halls of hospitals.

[cbayer]

8. I have never seen a member of the clergy enter a patient's room

unless the patient or their family requested it.

[Silent3]

9. It happened to me...

...when I was in the hospital for my gall bladder. The chaplain or priest whatever he called himself left quickly enough when I explained I'm an atheist, but it was certainly not a visit that I had requested.

[cbayer]

10. Generally they will stop at the nurse's station to see if anyone has asked for them.

But if he came in, introduced himself and left when you said "No, thanks", what's the harm?

[Silent3]

11. Did I say there was harm?

I merely related that what you had not experienced happening does indeed happen. What significance that contains can remain an exercise for the reader.

[cleanhippie]

22. The same amount of harm had an atheist walked into a patients room

With the same intent as the chaplain. And if you think that had that happened and all kinds of hell would not have broken loose over an atheist going into hospital rooms, you are either completely out of touch with reality or simply deluding yourself.

[tama]

33. What has atheism got to do with this?

Atheist Buddhist monks, psychiatrists, philosophers, etc. come to mind offering help to people in hospitals, as well theists and undefinables.

Atheists can be as good listeners as others, but what's important in this context is ability to be a good listener and help the patient, not atheism. Unless you want to define atheism as a belief system, spiritual path or psychological skill, which I expect you do not.

[humblebum]

34. A chaplain can offer consolation to the elderly and the dying, an atheist cannot.

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Very very few people that I have ever seen in hospitals and nursing homes would not want a chaplain or similar person to visit them. And I have seen thousands.

[Goblinmonger]

39. Well that's just bullshit. n/t

[humblebum]

47. You might want to expound upon that. However,

I was wrong in making such a blanket statement. There are certainly critical times when conditions are extremely critical or life threatening where religious consolation is invaluable. But, atheists are very capable of giving support and encouragement to those who might need a lot of that for their conditions to improve or need help with things they are not able to do on their own.

[Goblinmonger]

49. cleanhippie got his post hidden for expounding.

But I appreciate the apology.

[darkstar3]

70. Too little, too late, especially considering the options of self-delete and edit.

Boojatta got PPR'd for much less, and he was at least remorseful enough to edit his post.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. That isn't a retraction or an apology. You just layered it on higher and wider.

[Warren Stupidity]

52. what an insulting post.

Seriously. You owe people here an apology.

[dmallind]

53. a chaplain will offer bullshit superstitious claptrap. An atheist will not.

[RoccoR5955]

58. Absolutely the truth

Many a modern "chaplain" is just there to make patients feel better. If it takes illogical mythology to make them feel better, than so be it.
AFAIC, a chaplain would be the LAST person I would want to see.

[cbayer]

59. OMG!!! Make a patient feel better?

What is the world coming to?

[Warren Stupidity]

73. A place where we can deal with the human condition without bullshit.

[RoccoR5955]

132. I would feel MUCH better

If they didn't send some charlatan to try to calm me down. Send someone with reason, then I'll calm down, or not, depending on the circumstances. Just don't send someone in to give me a false sense of well-being, the first thing that I will think is, "What are they up to?"

[cbayer]

133. That's cool. All that would seem necessary is for you to state that that is what you want.

For others, it may be different.

[RoccoR5955]

179. Yeah, so many people

Believe in mythology, rather than the truth.

[Warpy]

60. Atheists can't offer consolation? Wow.

The bigotry in that sentence is stunning.

I dare say I've seen more patients than you have and most of them didn't want to be bothered by a chaplain's visit, they just wanted to get well.

The families, however, made use of the chapel and chaplain services.

[Iggo]

61. An atheist can't offer consolation?

Really? You gonna stick with that?

[backscatter712]

62. What a crock of shit!

In my view, the only thing that a religious leader can say that an atheist doesn't is horseshit like "Your relative's agonizing cancer death was part of God's Plan(TM)". And if somebody was dumb enough to say that to me, I'd have to work hard to restrain myself from succumbing to the temptation to smack him.

Realistically, comforting those who are dying, or who have lost loved ones, or are in the process of losing a loved one or otherwise suffering, is a matter of psychology. Basic counseling. Which can be done by a theist or an atheist. But at least the atheist has the common sense not to add garbage like "It's all part of the plan" (read that in Heath Ledger's Joker voice).

[WillParkinson]

63. An atheist can't offer consolation?

Wow. That is so ridiculous on so many levels. I'm not even certain how to begin attempting to refute such an ignorant statement.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

66. Honestly, this is one of the worst things I've read on DU in a long time

It's really, really wrong and (dare I say) despicable. This is the sort of shit that should get peopled PPR'd.

[darkstar3]

68. If it were said

about people of another faith, rather than people of no faith, I'm quite sure that would have happened.

Meanwhile not even the juries give a damn. Equality my ass...

[EvolveOrConvolve]

69. Or said about nearly any other minority

African Americans, the LGBT community, women, etc. (although I hesitate to bring LGBT into it, because there are still a ton of homophobes on DU that get away with their homophobia)

[darkstar3]

71. Absolutely.

[rug]

97. I'd say this is.

EvolveOrConvolve (4,211 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

33. He made an insinuation

That the members of this group were no better than murderers, knowing that the topic (at the time) was a touchy one. We bumped his ass almost immediately.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12306184#post26

Using a safe haven to post crap about other members is pathetic. Go ahead. Step out of your little bashfest and post the "insinuation".

[darkstar3]

99. Just can't quit the group, can you?

[rug]

100. Just can't quit me, can you?

Warpy (63,035 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

7. I just posted what you did without the profanity

Now let's see if mine gets hidden.

That poster is a bigot. There is no other word for it and he's teetering on the abyss rug has already fallen down.Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the nastiest of motives will somehow work for the benefit of all. - John Maynard Keynes

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to Warpy (Reply #7)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 08:20 PM
EvolveOrConvolve (4,211 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

14. I also made a similar post

I only used one profane word, but maybe that's enough to tip the fickle balance of the average DU jury. We'll see.

IMO, humblebum should be blocked, permanently, from the Religion group, but it'll never happen because of the current, toothless, hosting crew.A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. — Samuel Clemens

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to Warpy (Reply #7)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 08:57 PM
Starboard Tack (4,842 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

16. Rug, a bigot? WTF

I may not agree with Rug on everything, but he is one of the more thoughtful posters in Religion. What is this abyss you talk about?Living off the grid and loving it.

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #16)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 09:17 PM
darkstar3 (8,544 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

19. DAFUQ?!?!

There is just no way to express how wrong that statement is...

Thoughtful? "Credulous at best, your desire to believe in angels in the hearts of men..."

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to darkstar3 (Reply #19)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 09:19 PM
Goblinmonger (14,790 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

20. For the record, I'm with darkstar3 on this one.

One line non sequitur quips =|= thoughtful.

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #20)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 09:26 PM
darkstar3 (8,544 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

23. bums of a feather...

"Credulous at best, your desire to believe in angels in the hearts of men..."

Reply to this post
Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Go ahead. Post the "insinuation". Love to see it.

[darkstar3]

104. Crawling a group you've been banned from...get a hobby.

[darkstar3]

109. I haven't said anything there that I haven't also said in this forum.

I'll say what feel like in front of anyone you care to invite. Now perhaps you'd like to explain why you, a believer, spend time crawling through posts in a group populated by atheists where you have been banned for quite some time? What is the point of that? And posting it here...are you still so pissed off about being banned that you have to find some place to whinge about it, and meta has already rejected it?

[darkstar3]

118. No need. Your behavior here is a clear example of why I voted to ban your ass back when I was host.

Now take your whinging to meta.

[rug]

120. My behavior is not spreading false shit behind closed doors.

Your behavior, on the other hand, is just that. Followed rapidly by attempts to change the subject and deflect attention from nonexistent evidence.

Post it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

101. Nope, not gonna engage

Our decision was made and has been repeatedly justified. I know it bugs the shit out of you, but that's not going to make me change my mind.

[rug]

103. Of course you're not. It is impossible to back up that bullshit you posted.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

106. Sure

[rug]

107. Post it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

108. Nope, if people want to see it, they'll find it

The ones that matter know how it went down.

[rug]

110. Uh-huh.

That's damning evidence.

Ok, go back to your little bashfest with "the ones that matter".

[darkstar3]

111. LOL

The only thing evident here is that you're still mad about not being welcome in a group.

[rug]

113. Nice try. Now post it.

[darkstar3]

119. Poor try. Now take your whinging to meta.

[rug]

121. Post it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

114. Will do, thanks

[rug]

115. I'm waiting.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

116. I thought you wanted me to go back to my "bashfest"?

You sure are full of contradictions tonight. My poor uppity ass is all atwitter with the confusion.

[rug]

117. So is your memory.

[Lost-in-FL]

123. Concur. nt

[darkstar3]

67. Oh cbayer? I give you example #100+

I believe this serves as a glaring example of what we discussed not long ago.

[Goblinmonger]

74. Interesting that she hasn't replied to this

though she has often said that she will confront bigotry from both sides when she sees it.

Maybe she is passive-aggressively ignoring humblebum.

[darkstar3]

76. I was rather surprised

to see her chime in on the subthread, but refrain from responding to this train wreck. I seem to remember her and the elder saying that they confront bigotry wherever they see it, but once again this particular source goes unanswered.

[Heddi]

75. that is such bigoted bullshit. I"m an atheist, and I'm a nurse in a very busy emergency room

I promise you that I offer much more than consolation to patients (dying and living) and families (of the dying and the living) 12 hours a night, 3-4 nights a week.

I hold their hands and rub their foreheads as their terrible injuries take the life from them. I have been the only person with them as they die more often than I'd like to count. The old are shipped off to nursing homes, family a billion miles away. "Oh Grandma, we love you, until you get sick and are burdensome and forgetful and shit yourself and don't know that it's not 1943 anymore". Then she comes to us, lungs full of fluid and blood and head in a time that is long since gone and she dies, wailing in the night, crying for people who will never see her again, and I hold her hand, and tell her it's going to be alright, and i have sat there for hours as death wears on until it has worn on and the body turns a sallow yellow and a sheet is pulled over and phone calls are made.


You have said a very hateful, hurtful, and bigoted statement. I promise you that the majority of the RN's I work with are agnostic-atheist leaning, non-religious, and have more compassion in their little finger than you do, based on your hateful screed.

That's okay, though. Roll through our doors having a massive heart attack, or having a bullet lodged in your brain, or having your brain turn to pudding after a massive stroke, and we'll still treat you like a person, we'll console your family, we'll hold your hand and treat you with kindness and compassion, even though you seem to think of us non-believers as less than people, non-human, barbarian-types.

Nice Christian attitude you have there

[Goblinmonger]

77. Thanks for all you do.

I remember when my mom died. The nurses were great (my mom had a severe stroke and we made the decision to take her off the machines--which wasn't easy). She was relatively stable and my brothers and sister went home to shower and have breakfast before coming back for what we all knew was coming. About 10 minutes after they left her breathing started getting bad and I knew it was coming faster than we thought so I called my siblings and told them to get back. They were a few minutes away when I'm pretty sure she died. The nurse said she was going to check her pulse and I just looked at her and said "not until my family gets here...do you understand." She just shook her head, rubbed my shoulder, and said she'd be back when they got there. I will never forget her.

[darkstar3]

78. Heddi, I think I love you.

And I don't just say that because you have called down a bigot in one of the best ways I've read in a while. You are a hero, and your words regarding the way the elderly are treated in this country need to be heard far and wide.

May your passion for helping others bring comfort to those who have been abandoned.

[Goblinmonger]

80. I initially accepted the apology

and I'll stick by that acceptance, but after reading it again, it's not that hot of an apology. If he had stopped at the apology part, that would have been fine, but reread what comes after. Let me paraphrase: "for the really, really tough times there is nothing better than religion. atheists can help when it's not so bad." That's pretty weaksauce.

And if he were really sorry, he would edit the offensive post to reflect that. There is no edit window on DU3.

[Starboard Tack]

82. Apology was for the blanket statement and I agree it was weak.

But what a hullabaloo about nothing. Humblebum fucked up. Everyone saw it, but the whining and onslaught makes me think of junior high. CH is one of the most contentious people on DU and needs to grow a thicker skin. All this has accomplished is a derailment of the OP.

[darkstar3]

83. It seems birds of a feather DO flock together...

[Starboard Tack]

86. Nice quick edit there.

I guess my junior high reference was right on the money.

[darkstar3]

88. Thanks for lending credence to my hypothesis.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

94. That's a really good point

The fact that the post has been allowed to sit there, festering and unedited, says a lot about the attitudes involved.

[Capt. Obvious]

174. "He's in a better place now"

"The ground"

[darkstar3]

81. That wasn't an apology, and for you to

imply that somone personally and deeply offended by that bullshit post is "uppity" is just beyond the realm of common decency.

[Starboard Tack]

84. Where did I say "uppity"?

[darkstar3]

85. Note the word "imply"...

[Starboard Tack]

87. OK, maybe you'd like to explain who you are referring to here

personally and deeply offended by that bullshit post is "uppity" is just beyond the realm of common decency.

[darkstar3]

89. I was quite clear. Feel free to re-read it until you understand.

[Heddi]

90. the other 3-4 nights a week

I recover from working 12+ hours at a time with few (if any) breaks, a bladder that bursts from only gettin to pee fewer than 4 times between 615pm (when I leave my house) and 8am (wen I get home)

I recover from seeing the worst human behaviours: child abuse, rape, attempted (and sometimes successful) murder, alcoholism, drug abuse, spousal abuse, disparity of care Among the working poor, homeless, underemployed...

and telling people what I do is considered 'polishing my halo'? there is no halo here, friend. This is my JOB DESCRIPTION. No exaggeration, no embellishment.

I work in one of the most desperately understaffed positions in te country. my hospital has no less than 100 RN positions open at all time...and that's just to be at the basic staffing levels

there is no halo here, dear, just the cruel realities of a broken healthcare system, underfunded, understaffed, underpaid, overworked, emotionally and physically demanding, no thanks from management, patients, or families, or the general public, apparently, since according to you, describing my job duties is considered 'polishing my halo' and not showing my humility

[Starboard Tack]

96. Please accept my sincere apology.

I have the utmost respect for all service that you and those like you provide. I sometimes slip into the trap of heated rhetoric. My "halo" remark was totally uncalled for. Thank you for response, which definitely added dimension and perspective. Respect.

[Warpy]

92. Thanks, Heddi

The bigotry of that statement made me just a little too furious to enlarge on my own post at the time.

It appears you can say any stunningly bigoted, hurtful thing about atheists with impunity.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

93. From one of the ugliest posts I've seen to one of the most beautiful

I, for one, am grateful that there are people who do what you do. I don't fear dying, but I do fear dying alone. You give me hope that no matter how dark it may get at the end, there will be someone providing a little light to see me on my way.

[Lost-in-FL]

125. +100 x infinity nt

[Dorian Gray]

127. Thank you for all you do

for the sick, injured and infirm.

If it's any consolation, I think most people recognized that statement as total ignorance.

[Joseph8th]

180. +1000000000000000000000000000!!!!! nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

95. The one person I would want at my bedside, should I be laying there dying, is an avowed atheist.

(And also a DUer). Sorry but that is a load of bunk. The religious don't have the market cornered on caring.

[TransitJohn]

98. That's a pretty fucking outrageoous statement.

Care to retract it?

[Lost-in-FL]

124. Why not? What makes you think you can speak for atheists? nt

[Dorian Gray]

128. This statement can't

end well. I hope you see why this would be an offensively ignorant statement. Any human being can offer consolation to the sick and dying. We all have the ability for compassion and kindness.

[humblebum]

130. Where did I say that atheists do not possess "the ability for compassion and kindness?"

The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer.

So I suppose it comes down to what exactly is consolation. If it is holding someone's hand and merely empathizing with someone, as in the case of a terminal patient, certainly anyone can do that. But to reassure that person and to reinforce their hope in life after death, how can an atheist do that?

In no way is this a put down of atheists. It is a simple statement of obvious differences between believer and non-believer.

"When somebody dies we usually need reasons for consolation, not so much to alleviate our pain as to excuse ourselves for so readily feeling consoled." -Friedrich Nietzsche

There truly is a difference.

[Heddi]

139. Not everyone in the hospital is dying, and not every religious person can be consoled by a chaplain

At my hospital (a state-run public hospital), we have chaplains on call. They are not employees of the hospital, per-se. They are just available on an on-call basis when they are needed.

But to say that a chaplain can only console a believer in a way that a non-believer can't is just wrong. You're assuming that the only people who need consolation are the dying (we're all dying, by the way, from the moment we are born...)

Here's an example:

Two nights ago I was working the front triage desk, where I triage all the people who walk in through the front, as opposed to the ambulances who come in through the back.

A gentleman who I've seen on many occasions comes in and checks in. I ask him my battery of questions: What's going on tonight, what do you need to be seen for, etc.

He says he doesn't know if he needs to be seen by a Dr. His real concern was financial. He is newly homeless...had a job, had insurance (he says "When I had that insurance, I paid my stuff every. damn. week! And never went to the doctor once! Never went to the hospital. I was healthy! The day I lose my job I swear my legs did this..." and points to his cellulotic, swollen, angry legs, Edematous and full of fluid and infection. "I tell you what...you got it and you don't use it, you don't got it and that's when you need it!&quot

So he had been seen numerous times for his cellulitis, his lymphadema, his chronic leg ulcers (which are only made worse by having to walk 12+ hours a day, since it's against the law for someone to sit on a bench these days). "I am in a tough finanical situation....". He needs to be seen, but he's afraid of the cost.

I know this fear---I grew up on public health assistance, community hospitals, good luck in health and a smattering of "please don't let me get sick this week I just don't have the money". I grew up very poor, and knew from an early age to do what I could to save my mother the stress of a sick child, so when I fell at the skating rink at 15 and displaced my kneecap and my leg swoll up to 4x's its size, i did what I could to hide it from her because I knew she couldn't pay the bill, or afford the time off, or the physical therapy (my hiding didn't last long...it is hard to hide a knee the size of a Jetta wagon, especially when walking even a step makes you scream in pain).

Anyways. This guy needed to be seen. His wounds were weepy, odiferous---sign of infection. He was mildly febrile (feverish) and his heart rate was a bit tachycardic.---signs of infection.

But his concern was financial.

My hospital does a great job with assisting people to get funding. That's why I work there...it's a compassionate place. We can function, as an institution, if 30% of our patients are paying customers (insurance/medicare/medicaid/private pay). I've been there through the leaner years when we only got 23% pay. Never a time when more than 30% were paying, but close to it.

He needed to be seen.

He was distraught. He was verbalizing his inner conflict---knows he needs to be seen, but knows he can't pay. Knows he is sick, but knows "they" will want to be paid. Knows he needs services, knows he has no resources to obtain those services.

I consoled him. He was a believer, I would wager to guess, based on the large cross hanging from his necklace.

I consoled him, though. And I consoled him better than a chaplain could.

I directed him to financial counceling. I assured him that there would be ways to get his visit paid for. I assured him we would see him and treat him regardless of his ability to pay. I assured him he needed to be seen, and if he were my husband, or father I would want those festering wounds attended to. I assured him that he would get free dressing supplies, that he'd be taken care of, that we'd feed him and we didn't give a tinkers damn about his ability to pay or not. Because we don't care. We treat regardless and we write off MILLIONS of dollars worth of care in the name of charity a year.

The financial councelor spoke with him in length. The charity care application he filled out last month has been approved!!! All his care is covered, yes, even the old stuff before he filled out the application. Oh and even better, it looks like we got you some medicaid funds, too! Oh thank Jesus! he says. Oh Thank you Jesus!

So he is seen. We get him set up for respite care, where a nurse can do dressing changes, and give him meds, and it's not a nursing home, he can come and go as he likes! It's a safe place. He's happy about that. He feels validated as a human.

So how could a chaplain have consoled him any better than I? Than the financial councelor? Than the social workers?

Not all consolation is done in the setting of death. Most consolation is done for more immediate concerns---

who's gonna watch over my dog when I'm in the hospital (don't worry, we have a deal with the animal shelter, they'll babysit Coco while you're in the hospital and give her a shower and she'll be ready for you when you get out!)

How am I gonna get all the way back home? They airlifted me in from 4 states away for my burns (don't worry, we have a travel fund that will get you and your family an airline ticket or a bus back home!)

I know my daughter was just beat up by a stranger and is intubated and has a fractured skull, and I know she's gonna be okay but i can't pay this bill (don't worry, we have a victims of violent crime fund, and she was a victim of a violent crime so all of her hospitalization will be covered with this fund)

I'm homeless and I don't have any clothes because you cut them off of me when I was hit by a car and bleeding. Where will I get clothes, it's cold outside (don't worry, I already got some new clothes for you, including socks and underwear and shoes and a coat, it's under your bed. Here's a sandwich and a bus pass to the men's shelter)

So how can that have been done BETTER or DIFFERENT by a chaplain than by an atheist RN?

[eqfan592]

140. Thank you so very much.

Both for the work you do, and for standing up to the sort of ignorance that has been placed on display in this thread.

[humblebum]

142. See #47. nt

[rexcat]

143. As usual...

too little, too late.

[humblebum]

144. How is it that #47 is too little too late?

Darn near 100 posts ago.

[rexcat]

146. What Heddi said.

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)

On edit:
If you would be more careful in the first place maybe your opinions would be more accepted.

[Heddi]

145. But you posted what you said AFTER 47

You posted "The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer" after you made post 47.

So you're still saying, erroneously, in a blanket statement "The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer.". In this statement you're not saying "in death" or "near death" or "when a believer is in a tough state and needs theologic assurances".

You said 'The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer"

blanket statement. No if's, no and's, no butt's. Blanket. AND AFTER you made your honestly half-assed apology that, in my view, wasn't really an apology but a less-offensive but still hateful way of saying what you said in the first place.

Then you post AFTER YOUR SO-CALLED APOLOGY "The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer.".

And I again state that you are wrong.

I would encourage you to spend some time in a hospital--we're always looking for volunteers. Spend time at the bedside of the hurt and not dying, and the hurt and dying, and see who is there 99% of the time---it's not chaplains! It's not doctors! It's RN's and LPN's and Nursing Assistants. We're there 24 hours a day, in 12 hour shifts. Dr's (wonderful folks, I love them dearly) do not spend the time at the bedside that RN's, etc do. Neither do Chaplains, even if they're not on call and just wandering the hall dropping in for conversation.

I *PROMISE* you that *we* (believers and non-believers alike, in allied health professions) do far more consoling, counceling, encouraging on a REGULAR, ONGOING BASIS than the chaplains and their 10 minute drop in visits do. And we know the patients better, we see them on a constant basis, we know their needs and their fears better, and even without a belief system in place, or a belief system that is different from that of the patient, we are able to CONSOLE BETTER because we have more interaction and more of a "relationship" with the patient/families than someone who doesn't know them, hasn't interacted with them, is meeting them for the first time and will never see them again, here's a quick prayer, can do.

Please. volunteer at a hospital. I think you'll be amazed at the wonders that we godless beasts do on a regular basis

[humblebum]

147. I spent a good part of my working career in nursing home administration. I will stand

on my statement. There are certain types of consoling that an atheist simply cannot do.

[darkstar3]

148. And there are certain types of sports that a white person simply cannot play.

There are certain types of jobs that a black person simply cannot do.

There are certain things about child care that gay people simply cannot understand.

--------

There, now your statement is in the approproiate, disgusting company. It amazes me that Boojatta got PPR'd for far less than this, and yet here you sit.

[humblebum]

149. So then, an atheist can reinforce a person's faith in Jesus Christ and

life after death? If so, I'm wrong.

[Heddi]

151. We can say whatever needs to be said to bring a patient comfort and peace

if it means reinforcing their belief that heaven will be filled with ice cream and cherry soda, then so be it. If it means reminding them that they are surrounded by people that love and care about them (even if they are alone in a room, no family for a million miles around) then so be it. I've said it. Others have said it. I'll continue to say it.

Just because I don't believe in God personally doesn't mean that I wear a big A on my scrubs and carry on about my non-belief at the bedside.

Hell, My co-workers and I spoke at length with a particularly unique individual regarding lizard people and the "real" earth that resides below the earth's crust, and one day the crust will crack and we'll see who really resides in the "real" earth (hint: not humans). I didn't believe it. Neither did my coworker. But the patient did. Why am I gonna get him all worked up arguing with him about something that is of no difference to me but means the world to him?

If a patient is a dog-person, then I'm a dogperson at the bedside. If they dislike the colour red then by gum, so do I. Aside from issues of bigotry, racism, etc, I will be whatever I need to be for my patients to have a comfortable experience, and to be in an environment of care, healing, and rest. if that means praying with, then so be it. If it means validating a belief in something that i find extraordinary, then so be it. My patients have always seemed to be at ease. I don't leave them in distress. So something must be working....

[Dorian Gray]

178. Heddi

I want you at my bedside if I'm in the hospital.

[Heddi]

150. So you stand by a bigoted, erroneous statement

which also means that your supposed apology in post 47 wasn't really an apology at all?

And as a clinician who has spent more time at the bedside than an administrator who spends the majority of their time behind a desk, during daylight hours, dealing with paperwork than they deal with clinical issues, I will also continue to stand behind my statement that an atheist at the beside can console in a more meaningful, long-term way on a larger, more varied array of subjects than a chaplain can. And I also stand behind my statement that despite being non-believers, or believers of a faith different than the faith of the patient, we are even able to console in a religiously meaningful way than a one-visit, one-time, one prayer, every-day-brings-a-different-chaplain can.

Despite not believing in it, I have prayed many times with patients. I have bowed my head with them and their families. I am silent during the time aside from an Amen at the end, and I do not share my disbelief with them (because really, it's not about me). I will mostly whatever I can to provide aid and comfort to my patients.

You really discount tons of non-believers and non-chaplains in the clinical setting. I promise that you'd think I was a church-going believer when you saw me holding hands, bowed head, solemn "amen", with a patient as they prayed. But I'm not, and I wasn't. I was a nurse doing what needed to be done to help a patient and their family through a rough time.

And here's a hint--in the Emergency Room, when people are dying (which we really do try to keep them from doing), They're not asking for a priest. They're not asking for a pastor. They're not asking for an Imam or a Rabbi. They're asking that they not die. The families are grasping at *my* arm, begging *me* to do whatever I can to keep their loved one alive. The patient is looking ME in the eye and saying "please don't let me die, I'm not ready to die" They're asking for pain medicine. They're asking for their mom. They're asking for their husband. But they're not asking for some high holy person to come in. Never one time. NEVER ONE TIME. And that is a statement I will swear to on any book you ask me to without hesitation.

I remember I had a patient, he was the husband of a former nun. She was at the bedside watching the whole thing. He was dying, we were doing CPR then he'd get a pulse, then CPR, then a pulse. It was very touch and go. I knew her from previous visits with him that she was a former nun, actually worked in the chaplaincy at the hospital, and I asked her at one point when he had a pulse if she wanted me to have the chaplain called. She said 'Oh what's that old man gonna do? Sit there and pray?? You stay here, you're doing the important stuff..."

[humblebum]

152. No, but I'll stand by the one I made.

You are to be commended on your work, but there are many, many times chaplains are requested, from my experiences. And it is Christians who regularly come and sit with those who have no one and are in the dying process. I'm not saying that a non-believer wouldn't or couldn't, but they generally are not the one's who volunteer to do such things.

[laconicsax]

153. I'm increasingly entertained by your backtracking. n/t

[darkstar3]

157. And I am increasingly surprised at the lack of repercussion.

I almost feel like setting up a couple of sock puppets on either side of the "aisle" in an attempt to perform a pseudo-scientific experiment. I think it would be interesting to see how quickly one gets banned while the other keeps racking up bigoted statements that aren't acted upon. I'll bet I could turn the whole thing into an interesting website.

[eqfan592]

154. You a few posts ago: "There are certain types of consoling that an atheist simply cannot do. "

You in this previous post: "I'm not saying that a non-believer wouldn't or couldn't, but they generally are not the one's who volunteer to do such things."

Yeah, that pretty much says it all right there. So we've gone from not being able to do it to generally not volunteering to do it.....

[humblebum]

156. Only in your mind. I think I've pretty much explained myself. Now,

it would depend on the nature of the consoling now wouldn't it.

[eqfan592]

159. Only in my mind? These are YOUR WORDS, not mine!

Ya know humblebum, this thread has done a great deal to reveal elements of your true self. I've got nothing further to say to you at this time.

[humblebum]

160. YES, only in your mind. nt

[darkstar3]

161. And the minds of everyone who reads this thread.

What's funny is that this is your tried and true retreat tactic. I don't even remember how many times you've fallen back to this "only in your mind" attack in order to cover your retreat when you get caught by your own words.

And now to the hosts I say: How does this behavior adhere to the TOS and the SOP for this group? Does this behavior not "make DU suck"? Does this behavior have anything to do with discussing religious "issues" rather than irreligious "people"? Is it not clear that disruption is the solitary goal here?

[humblebum]

163. Yes, I do think that you and others are going out of the way to disrupt

anyone who is critical of atheism.

[eqfan592]

164. "A chaplain can offer consolation to the elderly and the dying, an atheist cannot."

THAT goes beyond somebody merely being "critical of atheism." That is bigotry, plain and simple. And now it's there for all of us to see who are willing to see it. And only you can correct that if you so choose, but right now, given your back peddling, you don't seem interested in that. And that's a damned shame.

And yes, I know I said I was done with you for now, but I changed my mind, and while I know there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth all over the internets because of it, I'm sure they'll get over it.

EDIT: And no, your "apology" does not count as correcting it, because you keep making similar statements, and you could have deleted the post in question but chose not to. That tells me that in spite of your apology, you meant what you said.

[humblebum]

168. I don't think it needs a lot of explaining, and I do not apologize.

There are most certainly types of consoling that an atheist is not capable of doing, such as honestly espousing religious points on life after death. Really doesn't matter if it's Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever. As far as back peddling. I've been making the same claims all along. There are certain types of consoling, that atheists cannot do. There's no more bigotry in that than saying Jack Nicklaus cannot shoot pool like a professional.

You seem to be very free at insinuating bigotry. Don't look now but by and large the bigotry here is anything but anti-atheist.

[eqfan592]

170. How do I seem very free at insinuating bigotry?

Why don't you run a comparison on how many times I've applied the word to a poster here to how many times you have.

And of course you don't see it as bigotry, because it came out of your own mind. Bigots rarely think themselves to be bigots, nor are they usually capable of seeing their own bigotry.

If you wanted to be rational and reasonable, you'd examine what you said and the fact that people who usually don't toss that word around freely have now applied it to you. THAT should tell you something. If it doesn't, then there's nothing anybody can do for you.

And honestly, your final sentence just serves to underscore how you, on some level, realize you've screwed up by the numbers in some way. Your trying desperately to get the spotlight off yourself. Well guess what, even if every single other person on this thread was a complete and total bigot, it wouldn't mean what you said was OK.

[Heddi]

155. so not only can atheists not console, but nonChristians can't, either?

Christians are the only ones who are able to console the dying? They sit at the bedside of the dying because non-believers (and apparently non-Christians) won't?

I think you see only what you want to see, and the only validation you have for this is your own close-minded thoughts

how do you know they're Christian? because they're at the bed of the dying?? and what community do you live in where there is such a plethora of Christian-only chaplains who sit at the beds of all the dying lonely people of your nursing home and I would assume hospital and other NH's as well?

my very large metro community has a shortage of chaplains. never available at night and only a few hours a day for my 600 bed hospital, and there are 5 other hospitals of 200-500 beds each in a 2 mile radius of my hospital, and roughly another 10 hospitals within 15 miles. plus all the nursing homes (I can think of 15 we routinely get patients from).

that's a lot of people and a lot of people who are dying, and I know tons are alone at my hosp, no family (usually pts are homeless, transient-living, immigrants ). lots of people die alone.

you should export your glut of compassionate Christian hand holders to other areas because theyre not holding hands here. theyre visibly absent, leaving those awful heathens to do the job instead

[humblebum]

158. You just kinda keep trying to twist things, don't you? You really

need to stop putting yourself down like that, too. Obviously your environment is much different that mine.

[Heddi]

162. I'm just repeating the things you said and am trying to clarify your statements

because they really aren't based in reality. So the only twisting is you. You said atheists can't console. Then you said that they can console but chaplains are better at it. Then you said that Christians are the ones holding the hands of the dying lonely because atheists refused to do so. You are the one who specified Christians over all believers.

I'm sorry that you don't like having to re-read your own words. And I'm sorry that your obvious bias against non-Christians, specifically Atheists, does not allow you to see the interactions they have with patients that go against your predetermined (and erroneous and bigoted) views that Chaplains, specifically Christians, are not only the only people who can console people, but are the only ones who routinely console and visit the dying. All statements which are false, based in bigotry, and which are designed to undermine the value and worth that non-Christians, non-chaplains offer patients, regardless of whether or not they are lonely or dying

[humblebum]

165. Funny, I can't find where I said any of those things, except for my first post

which I clarified.

"...Because atheists refused to do so?" Where I said that I have no idea. I merely said that it was Christians who were regularly volunteering to do so.

You seem to have a habit of reading things into statements that simply are not there. So instead of repeat my words, you are REVISING them. Huge difference.

[Heddi]

166. you are right. You did not say they refused

You said they do not volunteer to do so.

I still stand behind the rest of my statement. I have revised nothing. The more you speak (type) the more your so-called apology in post 47, which you seem to be proud to reference, becomes more and more hollow.

[Heddi]

167. And since you are forgetting what you wrote, here are your own words

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=22548#edits
34. A chaplain can offer consolation, an atheist cannot.

130. The simple fact is that a non-believer cannot console in the same way as can a believer, assuming the chaplain is a believer.

147. There are certain types of consoling that an atheist simply cannot do.

152. And it is Christians who regularly come and sit with those who have no one and are in the dying process. I'm not saying that a non-believer wouldn't or couldn't, but they generally are not the one's who volunteer to do such things.

So again, besides being wrong and using the word "refused" as opposed to the phrase "generally not the ones who volunteer to do such things", all the things I've attributed to you are, in fact, things that you've said.

No revision here, friend.

[humblebum]

169. Now that's better. 130, 147, and 152, I'll stand by. 34, I restated. nt

[eqfan592]

171. Restated elsewhere, but otherwise left untouched.

Color me completely unimpressed.

[eqfan592]

172. Here we go humblebum, I think I can sum up your position right now.

[Joseph8th]

181. Right... an atheist can't

lie to a dying person with a straight face. That's because atheists are morally superior to believers.

How's it feel to be condescended to?

[MineralMan]

175. I suspect that the "consolation" being referred to is that

"sure and certain hope of life beyond the grave," that always gets mentioned at funerals. That seems to be much of the consolation offered the dying by chaplains.

Well, I've been a death's door myself, once. The best consolation I received was "Don't worry...this will make you more comfortable." and "You seem to be making some progress since I saw you yesterday." The promise of more comfort and the hope that this would end well were far more consoling than the chaplain offering to pray with me. I told the chaplain that I was an atheist, and the nurse, "thank you."

If you believe that the only consolation is a promise that death is not then end of existence, then nothing else will do, in the mind of people who believe that.

It's cold comfort to the dying person, in many cases and not much consolation for the loved ones gathered at the bedside.

[Dorian Gray]

177. Consolation

can be given on a human level without the afterlife. A hug is consolation. Knowing that someone cares for you is consolation. For me, yes, I would find consolation in a priest's visit to my room. But I would also find consolation in kindnesses from a non-religious person if I were terminally ill in the hospital.

Perhaps we have different definitions of consolation.

[Arugula Latte]

176. B.S. Millions would not, including myself and several members of my extended family

and my husband's extended family.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Have you never been in a hospital?

That is exactly what they do, and then you have to tell them to fuck off.

[trotsky]

16. She's never seen it, so it's never happened.

Duh.

Wait - I thought atheists were the ones who couldn't believe in anything unless they see it first?

[cbayer]

23. I've been in lots of hospitals and been involved in developing policy concerning this for some of

them.

In my experience, there is a roster of people available representing various major religions. If a patient or family asks for someone, they are called.

There are also some clergy that take the initiative and come to the nurses stations to ask if anyone needs or wants to be seen.

Though it may happen, I have not seen a place where the clergy (or anyone else not employed by the hospital) can just walk into a patient's room uninvited. However, most of my time has been spent in secular institutions, so I admit that my experience may be skewed by that.

Please tell me what the person said to you that was so egregious that it would elicit a response of "fuck off"?

[Warren Stupidity]

24. "go fuck off" was hyperbole.

However I am astounded, given your testimony of extensive hospital experience, that you do not know that priests of various religions routinely pop in on new patients to see if they need some godification. Happens routinely. Not a big deal. You just politely tell the priest(ess) to go fuck off.

[cbayer]

25. Priests of various religions?

Ok, this is how stupid I am. I thought only Catholics and Episcopals had priests.

Anyway, this may be the difference between catholic hospitals, in which I have spent limited time, and secular hospitals, where I have spent a lot of time.

And if it does occur, and they ask if you need anything thing and you tell them no (or fuck off if you just want to be an asshole about it), I don't see the harm. No different than the lady who brings around the library books or videos.

Only if you were overtly hostile towards all library books and videos could this present a problem, imo.

[Goblinmonger]

26. What about cleanhippie's point?

What if an atheist came in uninvited and declared who they were and asked if the person needed their services? You think people in society would just say "no big deal"?

[cleanhippie]

27. She is passively ignoring me, so my point doesn't exist unless it upsets or offends her.

[Goblinmonger]

28. Oh, she's passively ignoring me, too.

Which is why I posted what I did. Such grown up tactics for a host.

[LTX]

44. What services? n/t

[Goblinmonger]

45. Atheists are incapable

of talking to someone and helping them feel better?

[LTX]

46. No. That would simply be human companionship.

But your phrasing made it sound like you were going to offer some kind of uniquely "atheist" services, prefaced, one presumes, by an announcement that you are an atheist there to offer those uniquely "atheist" services. I'm hard pressed to know what those would be.

[Goblinmonger]

48. No, I'm just saying

that if someone came to someone else's hospital room and said "I'm an atheist counselor. Wondering if you wanted someone to talk to" that society's reaction would not be a simple "no big deal." Plenty of people would not be happy.

[LTX]

50. I'm still perplexed.

Why would an atheist counselor even say that they are an atheist counselor, and not just a counselor, since the counsel they are offering has nothing to do with atheism? Kind of like saying "I'm a Keynesian counselor." Or "I'm a Republican counselor." Or "I'm a 290 bowling average counselor." Who cares?

And considering that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the counseling, I could see why people might not be happy with such a gratuitous announcement. It would just represent some pretty lousy counseling technique.

[Goblinmonger]

51. I don't know why they would either. Not my point.

cbayer said that if someone comes in and says "I'm a Catholic priest. Do you want me to talk to you?" that it's no biggie and people can just say no so why is it an intrusion. I said that people would NOT react like that if it were an atheist making "cold calls" on people in the hospital. It was to point out the privilege that people of faith have and how what they perceive as "no big deal" might actually be.

[LTX]

54. Perhaps correct.

But then priests (who usually announce their affiliation by their attire) and pastors and other clergy are in the business of offering specific and uniquely religious counsel (although they often leave religion out of it unless raised by the patient). So, unlike the atheist, the specific services they offer are in fact tied to their identifying affiliation.

And I don't see this being eliminated as offensive any time soon. Whether we approve or not, the majority of people remain religious in some fashion, and there is an almost universal tolerance for religious counseling of the sick and dying. A kind of generic, cross-religious tolerance, in fact. It's just the way it is.

[Goblinmonger]

55. And there is a general intolerance of atheists

that is supported in society, too.

[tama]

56. And there is a general intolerance

that is supported in society of what not - e.g. certain psychoactive drugs.

And there was just news about clinical study showing that pcilocybin can offer a lot of help and solace to dying patients. But if a counsellor offering openly free shrooms, lsd etc. plus trip sitting to patients would come to hospital, he would get arrested. Is that a reason to start to play the victimhood game? I would say rather the contrary, as the role of the victim never helped anybody.

[eqfan592]

126. Oh give me a friggin brake, tama.

If you honestly can't see the difference between intolerance of a drug and intolerance of PEOPLE, then you have really lost all sense of perspective.

[opiate69]

57. It`s a rhetorical point based on the use of "evangelical atheism" in the OP

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Jesus christ! "Priest" is a generic term.

See the dictionary. The official title of the person performing the role of priest(ess) varies from one religion to the next. I said there was no harm. I merely observed that this is a routine practice as you seem to be claiming it isn't.

Now you've made me break my vow to stop using godified curses.

[cbayer]

32. You had a vow to stop using godified curses, lol.

I think that a lot of christian protestants make a distinction between priests and other kinds of clergy, but I can see how you might generalize it. My father was always referred to as a minister or pastor or just clergy, while priest was reserved primarily for the catholic and episcopalian churches.

No harm, no foul

[rexcat]

102. It happened to me on December 7, 2009...

I had undergone shoulder replacement surgery on November 13, 2009 in a catholic hospital and I did not see any clergy per my request. On December 6, 2009 I ended up going to another local hospital and had an emergency appendectomy. Prior to surgery one of the nurses asked me if I wanted to have the chaplin come to my room. I informed the nurse that under no circumstances was the chaplin to come to my room. The following day he showed up in my room. I politely told him that his services were not necessary. I did not see the person for the next three days I was in the hospital. If he had decided to give me a second visit my attitude would have been more forcefully.

Does not surprise me in the least that you appear to have a skewed prospective.

[cbayer]

131. Why does it not surprise you in the least that I appear to have a skewed perspective?

I merely stated what my experience has been, acknowledged that I had spent most of my time in secular institutions and then backed off completely when others offered evidence that contradicted my experience.

I really don't understand why you needed to end this post with a snarky statement which appears to impugn me. I don't doubt your experience and have already acknowledged that mine is clearly not the definitive or only POV.

[trotsky]

134. To be fair, you didn't "(back) off completely."

Your initial response was along the lines of "well, OK, so it may happen but what's the big deal?" In other words, non-believers should just put up with unwanted intrusions into their lives by religious people.

But god forbid the reverse happens...

[Thats my opinion]

37. I hate to disagree with cbayer,

but as a pastor, I have been in many hospital rooms uninvited. I knew a lot of people--and was known by a lot more--who were not part of my congregation. When I heard someone I knew was in the hospital, I would stop by, not to sell anything, but just to listen--which is the pastoral task. People in serious medical distress often have fears and thoughts they want to express to some non-judgmental non-medical person.
I was never told to fuck-off. The common response was, "thanks for coming by."

[cbayer]

41. Then I stand corrected. But you did at least have some connection to the person.

You weren't really making a cold call.

[Thats my opinion]

43. Yup. I never made a cold uninvited call.

[Dorian Gray]

129. I'd also like to add

that we are friends with our Catholic pastor, and when our baby was in NICU after her birth, he stopped by a few times to pray for her. We never asked him for it, and it's not something that we minded. He was able to do it as he had the capacity as a chaplain for the hospital to go and visit patients when other friends who not have been allowed in the room.

It is something that my husband and I appreciated, immensely, as we were desperate with worry at the time. When we saw him in there our last day (when we were getting Monica, our daughter, ready to leave), we thanked him profusely for his visits and his prayers.

But, again, he is our friend on a social level outside of the church and he knew that his prayers would be welcomed by us. I don't know if he spent time with the other babies in NICU. I never asked him. (Though knowing him, I'm sure he kept them all in his prayers.)

[WillParkinson]

64. Really?

I've seen it plenty from all the times Paul was in the hospital. He's always very polite when he declines to speak with them, but they are almost always showing up, even after 'atheist' was listed as his religious option.

[cbayer]

65. I've been corrected. I see that it does happen.

But I will still maintain that if done without intrusion - just an offer - and the person leaves when help is decline, that's ok.

IMHO, it's better to have them than not, because many patients and family want them.

I assume Paul is your partner and hope he's doing ok. Hospitals are generally horrible places, aren't they? and people have to take comfort where they can.

[rexcat]

135. No, it is not okay...

In my situation I asked to be left alone and the hospital chaplin still came to my room. It was uncalled for and unprofessional on the chaplin's part. I was nice to the chaplin and did not go to the hospital administration and complain even though I had just been through my second major surgery in less than 4 weeks. Was I annoyed that the chaplin came to my room after I left specific orders to be left alone - damn right I was annoyed because the chaplin did not respect my request.

There is no way a chaplin, minister, priest or whatever they want to be called is going to give me comfort. I don't believe in a higher being and that should be the end of the discussion!

You just don't get it. See Trotsky's response to your response to my post (#102).

[cbayer]

138. That certainly sounds intrusive and objectionable.

I'm not sure why you didn't complain. I would hope they have a policy about this. If they don't, they need one.

I get it. I have had my experiences and you have had yours. Hearing about yours gives me a broader perspective and changes my POV.

[rexcat]

141. The one reason I did not complain...

was I had such a good experience during the three days I was hospitalized compared to the hospital stay just prior. I worked in hospitals for 14 years and mistakes can be made. Also two months after the first surgery I ended up having a third surgery. It was truely a horrific time in my life and I did not have the energy or desire to go after the chaplin. I had other issues that were more important to deal with at the time.

Thank you for changing your POV. Being an atheist in a sectarian world can be extremely annoying at times, especially when someone like me makes in very clear and in a nice way to leave me alone and my request is not respected. It has been my expereince while in public not to make a issue out of my lack of religious beliefs but when the line is crossed, beware! I think this is the attitude of many, if not all of the atheists on this board. On a forum like this the rules are a lot different.

[trotsky]

173. Just wanted to confirm that yes, that's my attitude too.

In real life I go along to get along, don't want to incur the wrath of the typical loving Christian in America. But I will defend my right to hold my opinion and I will not tolerate the religious bigotry so prevalent in this country.

I'm much more willing to confront it in all its forms on an anonymous message board though.

[enlightenment]

122. I have.

An offensive, abrasive, in-your-face evangelical who I almost had to throw out of my mother's room. She came in while I was helping my mom on the damn toilet - and would not leave.

My mother most certainly did not request the presence of clergy - and if she had done so, it sure as hell wouldn't have been a fundy nut-job standing in front of her, waving her hands and calling on "Jeezus" to come and help her. Help her do what?? Pee?

The woman should count herself lucky that she got to leave through the door - because if my mother had had the strength, she would have thrown her through the window head-first.

[AlbertCat]

136. Wow! What a thread!

I only mentioned clergy in the hospital because while my father was in one dying of pneumonia, while I sat with him all day someone came in every 30 minutes to do something.... check his blood pressure.... take his temp..... empty the trash....

Now all this stuff needs to be done but he complained he couldn't get any rest! And the friggin' chaplain comes in uninvited.... then another later on.... and a third.... (all left pamphlets) which made my father MAD and AGITATED. He wasn't even an "out" atheist, but he didn't suffer fools for long. He used to be a surgeon. But when he was practicing, this constant stream of people coming and going just didn't happen. It was quite upsetting to him.

[Goblinmonger]

137. See what you started!

[rug]

7. He must not have thought of Scotland.

[eqfan592]

12. He must not have thought of pancakes.

[rug]

13. The important thing is he remembered Nutella.

&context=C4c14cdeADvjVQa1PpcFPepFFshhAooA80ernEXgX_ZCGcjt_Albs=

[eqfan592]

14. lol (nt)

[Thats my opinion]

35. Mind-reading is a marvelous art. How did you acquire it? nt

[Ezlivin]

42. If you were a thinking atheist you'd already know

[Goblinmonger]

3. Just like those evangelistic gays and their coming out of the closet.

What will the world come to?

[AlbertCat]

5. What will the world come to?

Man on dog.....?


And y'know... "dog" is "god" spelled backwards!

[trotsky]

17. C'mon, get with the program.

It's fine for anyone to hold an opinion, speak about it, and perhaps even speak about it favorably in order to influence others. Like being a Democrat. A-OK.

UNLESS you're an atheist - because then you're being a horrible evangelical fundamentalist militant atheist who is shoving your atheism down everyone else's throat.

Oh, and it's also an opportunity for religionists to try and mock atheism as being just another religion.

[rug]

18. Mock atheism?

Who would stoop to mocking someone's view of religious belief?

Notify the authorities.

[trotsky]

19. You missed the key word: try.

And try again.

[rug]

20. Oh, it's not so hard.

[trotsky]

21. Discussion > snark

[atheous]

29. My snarky comment of the day

..err minute..
I'll make it my mission now to consul patients.. Shall we get on our knees and thank god for not being real?
Cops anyone?

[cbayer]

30. What do you mean? I find this more confusing than snarky.

[atheous]

36. It's an atheist thing

You would have had to have been there.

[cbayer]

38. What makes you think I haven't? I still don't know what you mean.