What happens during khalwat raids? UK broadcaster joins Malaysia’s religious police in a video

[rug]

Picture shows a khalwat raid in Johor Baru January 16, 2016. — Bernama pic

KUALA LUMPUR, March 18 ― In a bid to show “how Sharia law looks like”, UK broadcaster Channel 4 recently published a short documentary on khalwat raids in Malaysia.

Titled Muslim, Trans and banned under its “Unreported World” segment, Channel 4 journalist Marcel Theroux joined officers from one of Malaysia’s state Islamic departments as they check hotel registers and arrest Muslims who commit khalwat (close proximity) as well as transgenders, the latter who religious authorities here deem as sexual deviants.

“If they are not married, we arrest them, and bring them to our office for further questioning,” one officer said in the clip which carries English subtitles.

The journalist expressed surprise in the video that someone can be arrested for “being with a girlfriend”.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/what-happens-during-khalwat-raids-uk-broadcaster-joins-malaysias-religious

2:46 video at link.

http://www2.esyariah.gov.my/esyariah/mal/portalv1/enakmen/Eng_enactment_lib.nsf/100ae747c72508e748256faa00188094/3e7ad01824e8b532482573950029705c?OpenDocument

[edhopper]

1. But hey

Sam Harris hates Muslims, so this must be okay.

No need to criticize what people do because of their religion.

[rug]

2. Did you miss the civil statute, the badges and the uniforms?

This is state power. The solution is separation of that power from religion, not Sam Harris spitting Islamophobia, stupidly.

[edhopper]

3. But in much of the Muslim world

there is no separation, and there can't be if they stay true to their beliefs.
So you are saying we must convince them their beliefs are wrong.

Or do you wish to lay this squarely on the civil government and leave the religion blameless?

[rug]

4. Any belief is at worst, neutral, without the power to enforce it.

Khalwat is a particular religious value and religious practice that those who choose to follow, follow. It took the force of law in Malaysia in 1963 when, six years after independence, Malaya joined with North Borneo, Sarawak, and Singapore to form Malaysia. Excepting Singapore, the territories were heavily Muslim. Upon federation, the country adopted as its motto, "Unity Is Strength", and, coincidentally, much of Sharia law. Objectively, it is hard to deny that merger of relgion and state served that motto.

Singapore, on the other hand, being 75% Chinese and Buddhist and 15% Muslim, bolted within two years. The economy is vastly different from the rest of Malaysia as well. How has Singapore maintained its own "unity"? Fifty years before Trump, it banned any immigration into Singapore by Muslims and Muslim males cannnot marry non-Muslim females. This religious discrimination against Muslims is enforced by the state.

There are examples around the world and throughout history of the damage done when religious ideology and state power merge. The inherent problem is neither religion nor state - it is their merger.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. "Any belief is at worst, neutral, without the power to enforce it" - incredibly naive

Peer pressure and your standing in communities can cause a huge amount of pain, without any state participation. Think of people who cut off all contact with children because of their sexuality. If a religion preaches intolerance or hatred, it doesn't need the state for that to have a negative effect.

[rug]

6. Peer pressure and social pressure are themselves power. To deny that is itself naive.

State power is hardly the only type of power used to enforce conformity. All you need to do is look at the swarming behaviour on the internet to see it in action. Not that it would ever happen here.

Nonetheless, the proposition stands. An opinion, religious or otherwise, is socially neutral until linked with power. Maybe people should resist those powers and speak up irl instead of bloviating anonymously on the internet.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. You've been bloviating all through the thread about how this is the state

and now, when called on it, you're claiming you meant social pressure too?

OK, speak up: tell people they should not listen to the Roman Catholic church on the subject of LGBT. Say the church and its officials should be completely ignored. That it should be given no social power whatsoever.

[rug]

8. Sorry you consider video of a raid by religious police bloviating.

But that is what this thread is about. You, for some reason, minimize this raw display of state power and compare it to peer pressure.

Well, that's what i get for agreeing with you on a subordinate point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. So you can't even say the RC church should be ignored on LGBT issues

I tried to make it as easy as possible for you to back up your claim that you're worried about social pressure too. But it turns out you don't give a toss that the Roman Catholic church is anti-LGBT.

Your next lesson: social ideas can develop into state ones, in a democracy as well as a state ruled by military force.

I didn't call the video 'bloviating'; I said that's what you've been doing yourself. You didn't make the video.

[rug]

10. Of course I can.

But to be precise, it can and should be ignored on LGBT legislation.

Before you return to the subject of the OP, however, do you want to say something about pedophilia or the Vatican Bank?

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Your 'precision' is a cop-out - this was also about social pressure, remember?

That was the one thing we managed to agree on - that bad religious ideas can cause people to behave badly, and not just the state.

But you can't say that. So you are, after all, still trying to pretend this is only about a combination of religion and state, and that religion can do no wrong ("at worst neutral&quot if it's not involve with the state.

You seem to be trying to imply I am hijacking this thread. I'm talking about tolerance of LGBT people by religions, in a thread about intolerance of LGBT people in the Religion group. Don't try to dodge the subject.

[rug]

12. I'm not implying at all, muriel. I'm telling you directly.

To go from a blatant display of religious police using state power to enforce religious practices (in this case Islamic) to a screed about social pressure and the RCC demonstrates clearly what your purpose is.

Don't worry, muriel, I'm not dodging the subject. Thrt's all you.