An Atheist Is Taking on Alcoholics Anonymous in Bid to Get God out of 12 Steps

[rug]

AA members in New York in the 1930s. Public Archives.

By Ryan Moore
October 24, 2016

A Toronto man has taken Alcoholics Anonymous World Services Inc. and the Greater Toronto Intergroup to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario, alleging discrimination against atheists, agnostics and freethinkers.

The GTA Intergroup, which acts as a central organizing hub and directory for AA groups in Toronto, has essentially kicked out all atheist groups who have changed traditional AA language by taking out the word "God" from the Twelve Steps.

There are currently 501 AA meetings held at 252 locations across the GTA. However, atheists looking for AA meetings without a God attached will not find one in any of them because the GTA Intergroup eliminated local atheist and agnostic meetings from their promotions and directories.

Now, secular options in AA are officially considered non-existent in Toronto. Accordingly, questions remain as to whether the current AA program is modern enough for a pluralistic society.

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/an-atheist-is-taking-on-alcoholics-anonymous-in-bid-to-get-god-out-of-12-steps

Last year's procedural decision:
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onhrt/doc/2015/2015hrto1306/2015hrto1306.html?resultIndex=71

Chapter 4 of the Big Book published 77 years ago:

http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_44.htm

[madamesilverspurs]

1. What's next?

Will he sue Red Lobster for not having Big Macs on the menu?

Dude, get a grip.

.

[AtheistCrusader]

2. AA is often a court-mandated alcohol abuse treatment program.

If the courts are going to use it that way, probably drop the religious shit.

[rug]

4. Won't happen.

More likely to drop AA as a probation condition and replace it with a government program.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Then go after the government, not the 12 Steppers.

[rug]

3. "Mediation will begin on November 18."

Nevertheless, Knight still attends traditional meetings, mostly outside of Toronto when friends are having sobriety birthdays. He still values traditional AA, which he says helped save him from his addiction. But this does not mean he agrees with the exclusionary and fundamentalist behavior of some of its members who force their religious beliefs on others.

I can't say I've ever seen any of that. Fights over smoking meetings, yes, but not that.

[procon]

5. I don't blame him.

Why did the religious based organization eliminate the other secular programs? Like any other business, it looks like they are trying to limit their competition to keep up their own revenue source, and then there's the power and control that comes with being the only show in town.

[rug]

6. You've never been to an AA meeting, have you?

[procon]

8. I often accompanied my ex-husband has he worked on his sobriety.

Beyond that, I resent the overarching pompous arrogance and the implication that only people who have actually participated in sobriety programs are allowed to express an opinion. Don't judge, you have neither the right nor the esteem to ascend that bench.

[upaloopa]

9. You don't know much about AA I can tell.

One of your points give you away.

Next Month I will have 34 years sober. Went to AA at first. Took away the "turn it over idea" which has helped me a great deal.

If you don't like to say god you can say door nob if you like. No one forces religion on you.

If you are mad at religion good for you but don't take it out on AA.

[procon]

11. I can't speak to your experience, only what I observed.

Allow that and don't transfer your own problems into my reminiscences. My DH tried out a few different groups over the years. All were housed in churches. Religion was very much implied and encouraged at the time. Small town, not much choice until a secular meeting finally got started and he seemed to do better there.

[rug]

12. Congrats!

32 years last month.

[rug]

14. I resent overarching pompous arrogance too.

Like this:

Like any other business, it looks like they are trying to limit their competition to keep up their own revenue source, and then there's the power and control that comes with being the only show in town.

But, as resentments are poison, I'll just let it go.

[procon]

16. The cited article doesn't match your assumptions.

Here is the section that I specifically referred to:

There are currently 501 AA meetings held at 252 locations across the GTA. However, atheists looking for AA meetings without a God attached will not find one in any of them because the GTA Intergroup eliminated local atheist and agnostic meetings from their promotions and directories.

Don't back out now, read the article where it notes that the secular "meeting was delisted by the GTA Intergroup in 2011 for taking God out of the steps." C'mon, you're insightful, so why do you think this business wanted to eliminate all the other competitive groups?

[rug]

17. It doesn't match yours.

Neither AA nor its various intergroups and service committees are "businesses". They barely cover the costs of rent and printing. At the group level, most times the cost of coffee is barely covered. So, nobody is making money or quashing competition. If you spent any time with AA or Al-anon, you'd know that.

I suggest you read the Twelve Traditions of AA if you want to know how AA is organized and what its common purpose is.

If, instead, you want to go to an atheist or agnostic AA meeting, take your pick:

http://aaagnostica.org/

[procon]

18. Makes no difference what you want to call them.

If you object to the word "business" then pick something else if its such a critical element to your position. BTAIM, back to the article that this thread is about, and why this particular "______" is risking a lawsuit in suppressing all the competition offering secular programs.

[rug]

19. Er, yes it does.

If you think people sitting around a church basement reconstructing their lives is on the same level as a jewelry store, there's a lot you need to learn.

If you read the article, the complaint to the commission, which is not at all a lawsuit, is going to mediation next month. When it's settled you can go back to reflexive religion hate without tripping over the actual facts of this case.

[procon]

22. Thank you, yes, I also read the Human Rights Tribunal doc prior to making an opinion.

To recap: The primary allegation is that GSB, as a charitable corporation, did use "discrimination against atheists, agnostics and freethinkers." Even the Adjudicator's opinion confirms that the group was "based on an observance of God" and that the decision not to list the agnostic group could be "found to be discriminatory."

Hard to ignore that the fact that they indeed operate "under the auspices of a private charitable organization that arguably has, as a core component of its service, a belief in a God." Or that in the much ballyhooed, Twelve Steps, five of those steps contain religious messages, unlike secular programs. That's another difficult obstacle for people who are agnostics, atheists, or those with alternative beliefs, who are only trying to find their way to sobriety, not participate in the Christian religion.

[demosincebirth]

15. I have 37 years of sobriety and I thank God every day (my choice) for being sober.

By the way, no one in AA has pushed religion on me. I think you went with a closed mind instead of an open one.

[pnwest]

10. I recall 12-Step programs specifically state that your

"higher power" need not BE God, if you're not so-inclined. You can choose anyone or anything to be that "power greater than one's self". This guideline was put in place specifically to include and not alienate athiests and agnostics. Did that change sometime in the last 15 years? I've been to AA, OA and NA - they all were firm on this.

[rug]

13. You're correct.

Many times, it only required remembering that god, whatever that may be, was not me.

[Ron Obvious]

20. I've always thought that was particularly disingenious`

I know that's what they say, that your higher power could be anything, like the doorknob, but the alcoholic is nevertheless supposed to admit defeat and turn things over to that higher power in order to be saved. Just replace the word "God" with doorknob in the literature and see how utterly ridiculous it sounds.

AA isn't for everyone and if it's court mandated, it's definitely a church/state violation.

I say that as someone who has attended many AA (& Smart Recovery) meetings. I never followed the steps and never got a sponsor but took out only what I found useful, namely the fellowship and social aspects of the meetings. I've always been very open about this, but have nevertheless had to fight off aggressive sponsorship attempts. And that's in Seattle -- I can't imagine what it must be like in the Bible belt.

[Jack-o-Lantern]

21. It sounds like the atheist who wants to take issue with AA over the concept of the 12 steps

has more issues to deal with than alcoholism.

[applegrove]

23. I am agnostic. I was in AA and not comfortable in someone's God being

handed all my power. So someone took me aside and said God could be anything. For me God is nature, my ancestors, evolution and the what came before the big bang. You get to hand over your sense of control over alcohol to something more powerful than yourself is what matters. That you give up the falsehood that you have some power over alcohol is an important step. In fact it was the most important step for me. I don't know if some alternative would have worked as well.