Where is the Creator?

[guillaumeb]

I found the Creator at Stonehenge, looking at the stones and feeling the spirituality.

I found the Creator in a barrow tomb in Ireland.

I found the Creator at Salisbury Cathedral, walking in a structure that is 800 years old. The huge columns, the fantastic decoration, the carving in wood and stone, the stained glass, all a testament to faith.

I found the Creator when my wife and I attended the Passion Play at Oberammergau in 1984, attending the 350th anniversary of the play.

I found the Creator in a synagogue in Chicago.

I found the Creator at Loyola, even as my understanding evolved.

I found the Creator in the church where I married my wife 38 years ago.

I found the Creator in a mosque in my area.

I will admit that I have no scientific proof, no DNA, no fingerprints, no photographs. Just faith.

[marble falls]

1. When you know, you know.

[guillaumeb]

2. True. eom

[trotsky]

29. Same can be said by Mike Pence, Pat Robertson, and Franklin Graham.

They all know they know.

Sure would be nice if there could be more discussion than that, don't ya think? Rather than just walling it off like that?

[marylandblue]

3. Sounds more like you found yourself in those places

But I can understand why you need to think you found more than that.

[guillaumeb]

5. Expectations can lead to many things.

If you see a bunch of stone instead of a cathedral, or simply a large building, that might be your experience.

[marylandblue]

8. Or you could see giant instead of a windmill

[guillaumeb]

9. And attack that giant?

[marylandblue]

10. If you want to

[yallerdawg]

17. I remember a George C. Scott and Joanne Woodward movie...

"They Might Be Giants."

- "Not every windmill is a giant. That would be insane."

[marylandblue]

24. A little insanity never stopped anyone

[MineralMan]

38. When I see a cathedral, I see the people who designed it and

built it, not some deity. God had nothing to do with the erection of the cathedral. Humans did that.

Similar thinking for most of the other things on your list. Stonehenge was built by people who worshiped multiple deities. Odd that you're seeing a deity in human creations, I think.

[Major Nikon]

4. Does this creator only create positive things?

Is it also possible to see the creator in disease, poverty, famine, tanks, assault weapons, or fidget spinners?

[guillaumeb]

6. Are you asking my opinion?

That is all that I can give you.

But, assuming that you are asking, I believe that the Creator provided the spark, the impetus, that is called the Big Bang. And after that, what evolved then evolved.

[Major Nikon]

11. Yes

It sounds as if you are attributing all things to an alleged creator, but you are only looking for evidence in positive things.

[guillaumeb]

13. I am attributing the initial spark to the Creator's power as creator.

Evolution is the process that led from the Big Bang to 2018. So I see the Creator in everything that evolved. If you walk and crush an ant in the process of walking, does that make walking evil?

If you have a child, and that child's grandchild murders someone, are you responsible for the death?

[Major Nikon]

15. The answer to both questions is no

But along the same lines if my great-grandchild discovers the cure for cancer, neither am I responsible for that.

[guillaumeb]

16. True.

You have a small part in both, only in the sense that you provided the life that ultimately resulted in the outcome in either case.

[Major Nikon]

19. So why not see the creator in those other things I described?

Or everything else. To me it makes as much sense as seeing the results of the creator before I pull the chain on the commode.

[Lordquinton]

61. Funny how this question remains unanswered

Perhaps it is unanswerable?

[Major Nikon]

68. Perhaps we are just missing the point

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218276890#post15

[Lordquinton]

93. It's hard to miss something

that isn't there.

[Major Nikon]

94. You just have to believe its there

[Voltaire2]

39. What do you mean by evolution

in this sentence you wrote:

“Evolution is the process that led from the Big Bang to 2018. ”

[trotsky]

40. He means he doesn't understand what evolution means.

Pretty obvious!

[guillaumeb]

48. What do you think I meant?

I thought that it was quite obvious.

[Voltaire2]

51. If I knew what you meant I wouldnt have asked.

So what did you mean by evolution in that sentence?

[guillaumeb]

53. Metaphorically.

The Big Bang happened, and it started a process that led to you and I writing messages on a board. Evolution in the Darwinian sense is one part of that process.

[Major Nikon]

74. Yesterday I farted eastward and Typhoon Jelawat turned away from the Philippines

[marylandblue]

78. Bringing new meaning to A Mighty Wind nt

[Major Nikon]

79. I got a thank you call from the almighty on my red phone

[Voltaire2]

77. So your sparky gods just gave the first push

to get things going, right? Was everything that followed intentional? Did sparky intend everything that has happened over the last 13.5 billion years?

[guillaumeb]

82. Ask the Creator.

[marylandblue]

86. You're the one who found it

[Voltaire2]

88. We almost had an honest discussion

[hueymahl]

37. Who created the creator?

A serious question. As a newbie to this group, it is not meant as an attack (and in my short time here, I notice you get attacked a lot).

I ask because in the evolution of my thoughts on religion and Christianity in particular, I at one time held a similar belief, that the big bang could have been the spark of creation referenced in the bible, with the rest of the story just being allegories told by the wise-men of the age (old testament) and then well-meaning but ultimately mislead disciples of Jesus (new testament). Basically viewed (and still do) the bible as a book of philosophy that can only really be understood as a creation of the people of that era.

This allowed me to reconcile, for a time, the inconsistencies of the fundamental teachings of Christianity with our "god-given" ability to use logic and reason. But then the whole logic thing kicked in again, and I started wondering who created the creator, and why does there have to be one? Because if the creator is the end and nothing created the creator, why does that make any more sense than saying the universe simply exists?

[guillaumeb]

45. I have faith that the Creator provided that initial spark.

And given that the Big Bang is recorded and referenced 5800 years ago, I see inspired writing.

If humans were created in the image and likeness of the Creator, this obviously refers to intelligence.

As to "the logic thing", faith requires belief. If you demand proof you can only reject faith as a system.

But, speaking of logic, how did the Big Bang start, and where did the matter come from that apparently spontaneousy exploded?

Questions like this are unknowable.

[edhopper]

54. If you think Genesis

refers to the Big Bang, why did it get the rest so wrong?

I mean seriously, you are bringing that creationist bs here?

[guillaumeb]

55. Metaphorical language.

Like the words created in the image and likeness.

Like the names Adam and Eve in the creation story.

[edhopper]

56. you claim the big bang

is referred to in Genesis. I call that bullshit.

Do you stand by that claim that bronze age men knew, or were told about the big bang?

[guillaumeb]

58. I stand by my interpretation.

What is contained in Genesis is, in my view, a metaphoric reference to the Big Bang.

Did Bronze Age humans understand that?

[edhopper]

60. The only logical

conclusion I can draw is you think God communicated with middle eastern tribes in the bronze age.

Amazing how much he got wrong about creation.

[guillaumeb]

104. Amazing how people interpret what they read.

[marylandblue]

112. Then God did not communicate metaphoric information

about the Big Bang to Bronze Age tribes?

[guillaumeb]

115. That appears to have happened.

Miraculous?

[marylandblue]

117. If that happened, then God did more than just provide the spark

As you have stated.in other places.

[edhopper]

119. I will ask this clearly

Did God communicate factual information about the Big Band and bio-chemistry to mankind thousands of years ago?

If not where did these ancient people get the information about the Big Bang?

[guillaumeb]

122. It appears that there are clues in Genesis.

So were these ancient writers inspired? It would seem so.

[Doodley]

103. As an atheist, I see exactly what you are saying. I see that interpretation very easily.

[marylandblue]

65. You seem to have a problem believing a universe can be self caused, but not a god

Why is that?

[guillaumeb]

66. You believe that nothing spontaneously caused something?

That is interesting.

[marylandblue]

70. Why is that hard to believe if the science shows that?

Modern physics is very counterintuitive because our brains did not evolve to understand quantum physics and warped space.

[guillaumeb]

72. Science might posit that as speculation.

Hawking had a lot of ideas. I might make your same argument when you ask where is the Creator. Our brains might never evolve to answer that question.

[marylandblue]

75. It's not a speculation, it's a hypothesis with some evidence to back it up

As the big bang theory once was. The Creator is a speculation, because as you've so often stated, it has no evidence behind it.

[Mariana]

105. You believe that nothing spontaneously caused The Creator

That is interesting.

[guillaumeb]

106. It would be interesting if that was what I actually believe.

[Mariana]

107. Is The Creator nothing? nt

[guillaumeb]

108. As the name implies, the Creator is the one who creates. eom

[Mariana]

109. And what of the origin of The Creator?

Did something else create it? Did it spontaneously emerge from nothing?

[guillaumeb]

110. Ask the Creator.

[Mariana]

111. What do you believe?

Do you believe something else created it from nothing? Do you believe it spontaneously emerged from nothing?

[guillaumeb]

114. I believe that the Creator existed prior to creation.

How? I have no idea.

[edhopper]

120. The Bible dates from about 3000 years ago

how long the oral origins go before that are not known.
We know the Babylonian stories that were co-opted are from about 4500 years ago.
The Persian sources a little later.

The only ones who use the 5800 year time period are literalists and creationists.

Which are you?

[Mariana]

7. Disease is entirely of the Creator, if there is any such entity.

All those other things can rightly be blamed on humanity, but humanity didn't create disease. Some religions claim that humanity is responsible for the existence of disease, and I think it is absolutely disgusting that they do so.

[Major Nikon]

12. Then it would also seem as if humanity created all of the things in the OP

[guillaumeb]

14. Diabetes can be a result of poor diet.

Is the Creator responsible for a poor diet?

If you create a child, and 3 generations later a descendant murders someone, are you as creator responsible for the murder?

[uriel1972]

18. Ahem...

We are not omnipotent and omniscient...

If your creator is then they have the knowledge and the power to have prevented the suffering of humanity, but chose not to. That makes them responsible for that suffering. With knowledge and aforethought.

[Major Nikon]

20. Or at the very least completely unconcerned

I’d think a believer should be at least as much afraid of an apathetic god as atheism. Either way it means all time spent begging and trying to curry favor as a complete waste.

[guillaumeb]

41. Are you familiar with the concept of free will?

Of course you are.

[marylandblue]

71. I don't think you and I have the same concepts of free will

Mine does not require that there be diseases.

[guillaumeb]

73. I think you are confusing concepts.

If disease pathogens evolve, does that mean that evolution is evil?

[marylandblue]

76. If there is an omniscient omnipotent creator then it is evil

Because it has created suffering that it had the power and knowledge to prevent.

[guillaumeb]

81. Only if you see the Creator as controlling,

and all life as helpless puppets.

[marylandblue]

83. Not at all

Lots of ways for life to be free without any creature being harmed.

[guillaumeb]

84. Name some.

So nothing would die?
Nothing would fall?
Nothing would get old?
Nothing would be sharp?
Nothing would fall?

[marylandblue]

85. Those all sound good to me.

And wouldn't they all be true in heaven? If humans thought of such a universe, surely the Creator did too.

[guillaumeb]

95. It describes a picture, not reality.

If you prefer a picture to reality, why?

[marylandblue]

113. They are ways of life to be free without suffering

which is what you asked for and then answered your own question. Of course it is not reality. But an omnipotent, omniscient being could have made it reality if it chose to.

[guillaumeb]

116. Perhaps you can imagine some ways.

[marylandblue]

118. Ummm, you did it for me, and I agreed those were ways

So what is the problem? Is an omniscient Creator unable to think of the same thing or is an omnipotent Creator unable to create a world like that?

[Voltaire2]

89. Once more: is it your opinion that your sparky gods

only started the universe and played no role in the events that followed?

[guillaumeb]

96. I actually stated that numerous times.

[Voltaire2]

97. So no design, no plan, no intervention.

Just a push to get it going.

[guillaumeb]

98. Did you expect an owner's manual?

Or a blueprint with the Creator's DNA on it?

[Voltaire2]

99. No, it just is amusing. Youve reduced

your gods to irrelevance.

[guillaumeb]

100. No, you have demonstrated your own opinion.

[trotsky]

27. Why did your creator give us bodies that can develop diabetes at all?

In addition, your callous attitude toward people with diabetes *through no fault of their own* is atrocious and disturbing.

What else do you blame victims for?

[guillaumeb]

64. Typical.

And consistent.

[trotsky]

91. That you won't answer a simple question?

Yes, both typical and consistent.

Why did your creator design us so that we can get diabetes, gil?

And why do some people get diabetes even if they eat a healthy diet?

Do you have answers to these questions, or are you just going to insult me?

[Lordquinton]

62. Nice dodge

Perhaps address the question?

Or are you being dishonest in your OP?

[guillaumeb]

63. Not a dodge, simply logical.

Are my grandparents responsible for my actions?

[Lordquinton]

67. So the creator is responsible for nothing you mentioned in the OP?

Hypocrisy in action.

[3Hotdogs]

21. Stonehenge, Salisbury Cathedral, Rochester Cathedral ---

I've enjoyed visiting those and many more. I was not inspired by faith but by the human expression of faith through thousands of years.

[guillaumeb]

42. An excellent point.

But the visit reinforced that expression.

[3Hotdogs]

47. While visiting rural U.K. churches, I would imagine villagers attending service in maybe 13th or

14th century. Buildings heated by wood, if at all. Matins service at the end of a winter's day work.


Joyce and I always enjoyed attending cathedral Matins service. Westminster, St. Paul's, York, Salisbury, Rochester, Cambridge.... we attended them all.

Lincoln with its gremlin gave me a grin.

[guillaumeb]

49. I remember looking at the massive central pillars

that supported the spire at Salisbury. And being amazed at the curvature of the pillars beneath the enormous weight.

And the way that sound carries so well in such a large space.

[edhopper]

22. I have been to many of those places

and seen a creator too.
A very human creator that I know is capable of great things without giving credit to an invisible being for which there is no evidence.
I don't degrade man's achievement by giving credit elsewhere.

[trotsky]

26. Damn fine point.

We humans have managed to build some pretty amazing stuff, figuring it out all on our own.

[Voltaire2]

23. So in this form of your argument

your gods are only a “first cause” and are not involved in any way in the subsequent chain of events.

Is that correct?

[trotsky]

25. Thank you for confirming your creator is a mental construct...

with absolutely zero evidence of existing outside your mind.

[guillaumeb]

43. Prove that you are not a mental construct of my mind.

With zero chance of outside existence.

[trotsky]

90. I very well might be.

Hint: THAT'S THE POINT.

Ooh, you're so close, gil... just a little bit more...

[njhoneybadger]

28. It sounds like your having delusions or hallucinations that's usually a sign of mental illness

[DetlefK]

30. What about the people who have lost the Creator?

What about the people who have seen things and been through things that convinced them that there is no God?

Is their witness-testimony good enough for you to convince you that there is no God?

[MineralMan]

31. In your mind. That's where.

If you find that "Creator" everywhere, it's because your mind puts it there.

[Act_of_Reparation]

32. In my pants.

[PJMcK]

33. Some nasty posts up above

It is curious though that the places where you found a creator were all places created by humans.

Coupled with your disavowal, it sounds like your creator was created by you.

Whatever. If your faith gives you peace, I wish you well.

[trotsky]

34. I wish it were that simple.

The pope's faith would appear to give him peace, however it also makes him condemn marriage equality, trans individuals, and reproductive freedom. I can't wish him well on that.

[PJMcK]

35. Fair enough

I agree with you about the Pope and probably most things "religious."

guillameb often argues for his faith by setting up straw men. As I wrote, whatever.

[trotsky]

36. "guillameb often argues for his faith by setting up straw men."

On that we are in 100% agreement.

[guillaumeb]

44. Places that were created as an expression of spirituality.

[guillaumeb]

46. A few nasty posts.

A few insulting ones as well. What does that say about the posters?

[PJMcK]

50. It doesn't elevate them, does it?

I won't be rude on an anonymous board. It's a pointless exercise.

Further, I don't appreciate a dialog if it gets insulting and coarse. I don't need that in my cranium.

As I wrote, if it gives you peace, have at it.

Enjoy your evening.

[guillaumeb]

52. And you.

Thank you for the comments.

[Binkie The Clown]

57. I am the creator. I discovered that back in the 70s when I was doing chemical experimentation.

Nothing compares with the mind-altering realization that you are the creator. I thought I knew what faith felt like, but believe me, faith is a dim candle compared to the brilliant light of self-knowledge.

Plus, blah, blah, blah, and many other flowery words and vague references to enlightenment and the ineffable sensation of awakening, and references to higher vibrations while carefully avoiding any mention of anything that is actually, verifiably and objectively factual.

That's how I know god spoke directly to me. Believe me. If you don't believe me, I'll write it down, and then you'll have to believe me because it is written.

[guillaumeb]

59. You just wrote it down.

Above my response.

[Major Nikon]

80. I just got off my red phone and the almighty assured me you arent Him

[Stargleamer]

69. Where is Santa?

both lie in the human imagination, no where else.

[Eko]

87. This lady found god with her SUV and a telephone pole, on purpose.

Georgia mother crashes vehicle into pole to prove 'God is real,' police say

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/georgia-mother-crashes-vehicle-into-pole-to-prove-god-is-real-police-say/ar-BBKM3FG?ocid=spartanntp

[lindysalsagal]

121. No, God was on a lunch break at that moment.

She only found the telephone company pole.

[nil desperandum]

92. Sometimes

when I'm sailing and the sun is setting on a breezy, relatively calm sea the ocean looks like it's on fire....

In those moments it's easy to understand why someone might wish to find their version of divinity in that always amazing sight. The water sparkles in oranges and reds, the warm breeze smells of the ocean and there is no sound on the boat other than the gentle lapping of the water against the hull as the boat cuts through the water....it's inspiring and refreshing.

Other times when the sky is dark and grey and the ocean is throwing up 10-15 foot swells and the boat is bouncing up and down it's perhaps less inspiring, and more of a reminder of the absolute power of the planet and the stars. A cold cynical power that just exists without morality or concern for our lives.

Man's search for god, or for meaning will continue unabated I suspect for as long as we get to occupy this planet.

[guillaumeb]

102. A very nice answer.

[still_one]

101. As far as I am concerned Microsoft's Creator's update has a lot of issues