Attributing to God What Is Done by Humans Is Illogical

[MineralMan]

Let's take the example of any of Europe's great cathedrals. God didn't build them. God doesn't build buildings. They were designed and built by human beings, who drew and sweated and created those mighty structures.

If you argue that they were inspired by God, you're wrong there, too. They were paid for by the church, which wanted edifices to demonstrate its power. Those churches hired the architects and paid the skilled laborers and workers, either directly or indirectly. Their inspiration came from money, not God.

All of those great cathedrals, as impressive as they are to see and visit, were human endeavors, not creations of any deity. Their designs are based on symbolic ideas, but every one was conceived and drawn by people, and then built to order, in a process that took decades to complete.

If you visit one of those cathedrals, as I have, you might feel inspired, if you are a religious person, to envision some deity during your visit. If you are not, you might examine and wonder at the handiwork of the humans who created it. Either way, though, every one of those cathedrals required human brains and brawn to build. No deity was involved in the process at all.

The long-forgotten gods of the Druids did not build Stonehenge. People did that. Egyptian gods did not build the pyramids or the Sphinx. They were designed by humans and build with the sweat of workers and saves. The amazing cities and temples of the Aztecs were not designed nor constructed by that cultures forgotten deities. Like all the rest, they were purely human endeavors.

[Girard442]

1. You might also wonder how many were taxed into crushing poverty to pay for those marvels.

[MineralMan]

4. Yes, indeed. And wonder, too, how many died during their construction

and in the quarries where the stone they are built from was quarried. Still no deities in the picture. Just human ingenuity, greed, and self-aggrandizement. We marvel at them, as well we might. We even visit ruins of even older structures built by humans, who worshiped even other deities. None had a deity's hand involved.

[Major Nikon]

12. Theres a good reason we dont build them today

The amount of resources needed to build them was massive, and much of the labor was highly exploited.

[ollie10]

2. So what?

Have you really met anyone who actually said that God built a building? Really?

And to deny that god has inspired people.....what are you, a mind reader?

[MineralMan]

5. Some people say they have found God in such buildings.

I find human creativity in them, not imaginary entities. That's far more amazing. What do you suppose the "inspiration" for the flying buttress was? Inspiration is also a human attribute. It comes from the human mind.

[ollie10]

10. It is not for me to observe what inspires others.....

Last edited Thu Mar 29, 2018, 05:14 PM - Edit history (2)

.....I do note that many have said they have been inspired. I don't doubt them.

You talk buildings....I talk music.....there is a beauty in some music that inspires. Now what is it? Is it notes? Any musician will tell you it ain't notes,not even close. Music is inspiration, and notes are just approximations, vehicles for expression. Jazz, for example, if you have to follow the notes you ain't doin' jazz.... Heck, much of baroque music was improvised back in the day....maybe music is a religious experience for some!

I digress. But religion CAN be like that. And whether there is a god or not cannot be proven one way or another....I mean be real....but there are things that people attribute to inspiration by their religion...whether that is christianity, or buddhism, or Taoism or whatever.

I don't think it is particularly important whether a person who believes god inspires them is right or not.....who are we to know? And why should anyone care just what inspires someone else?

Just let them alone, and enjoy the view and the music

[MineralMan]

13. You're welcome to write as you please.

As always. I will do the same, if you don't mind.

[ollie10]

17. Of course!

[edhopper]

18. it's when people claim

this inspiration is somehow evidence of their God that is problematic.

[ollie10]

22. I see. It is problematic to have a belief different from yours

[NeoGreen]

23. Then you seem to see it...

...incorrectly.

The problem is the claim of evidence, not the belief.

[ollie10]

27. Ah incorrectly

So who appointed you the judge of what is incorrect about beliefs and claims?

[NeoGreen]

32. Reality did...

...since the claim that "inspiration" is evidence of "god" is simply incorrect, it does not comport with reality.

And for the record, I said nothing about "belief" in of itself, and if anyone were to say I did, they would be committing a Straw man Fallacy.

I only said that the claim of the inspiration is not evidence. I said nothing about the belief.

[ollie10]

36. some people believe in God and are inspired

They think there is enough evidence to believe in God. You don't. That is your opinion. That is all. And it is their opinion. Yours is not better than theirs, it is just your opinion. If someone believes in god, what skin is it off your back? Let them worship in peace.

[NeoGreen]

38. Good for them and so what...

...it does not change the fact that inspiration in-of-itself is not evidence of god.

[ollie10]

39. You can't prove it one way or other

You just think you are right and others wrong

[NeoGreen]

41. There is nothing to prove...

...I think the god hypothesis (for any god) is highly unlikely, and is improperly defined and thus cannot be properly tested within a proof.

[ollie10]

49. Same worn out argument

Got anything original?

[NeoGreen]

51. It is not an argument...

...it is the rejection of a highly implausible, factually unsupported claim.

[ollie10]

54. Have a good night

[NeoGreen]

55. (nt)

[NeoGreen]

47. If I had snide intent, I could copy your post #39 word for word...

...and it would be just as true for you as you think your post #39 is for me.

Fortunately, I am not of snide intent.

[ollie10]

48. But your post was snide!

[NeoGreen]

50. That is just...

...your opinion.

[ollie10]

42. Do you enjoy?

[marylandblue]

44. Who is stopping them from worshipping?

[Mariana]

46. Of course no one is doing that.

The poster is dishonest to suggest anyone here is doing that.

[MineralMan]

45. DU's Religion Group is not a church.

Nobody here is prevented from worshiping.

[edhopper]

24. You misunderstand what I said

I wasn't deriding what you wrote. that people are inspired by may things. Religion included.

I was making a distinction, based on what others have posted here, that feeling inspired does not mean the source of that inspiration is real. The inspiration is, but it does not offer evidence for the source.

If that was so then we would have to accept the great Roman and Greek temples as evidence for Zeus and Jupiter.

[ollie10]

28. OK, fair enough

But, still, when I look in the eyes of my wife I can't help but believe there must be a god after all....

My wife doesn't think that is incorrect

[edhopper]

33. You should give thanks

to Athena for that.

[ollie10]

37. Works for me!

It is best to be thankful

[True Dough]

3. Oh, for God's sake

only a Higher Power could have possessed you to write this!

[MineralMan]

6. LOL!

Actually, I'm in an unusually foul mood this afternoon. That was my inspiration, I think.

[saidsimplesimon]

9. Thanks for the chuckle

How about those lights over, where else, New Mexico and Phoenix? Beam me up, but no probes

[Binkie The Clown]

7. I'm not saying it was aliens that built the the pyramids.

Really.

I'm not saying that.

[MineralMan]

8. Well, I have it on good account that the ancient Egyptians were

not U.S. Citizens, so they were, by definition, aliens, according to our laws.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. It wouldn't be illogical if it was consistent.

I mean, God either affects the world or does not. If he does, it makes sense to praise God for giving us Bach... but it also makes sense to take his ass to task for giving us Duran Duran.

But it's always unidirectional. The believers praise God for the good, but always attribute the bad to something else.

[MineralMan]

14. Exactly.

[Voltaire2]

40. Some Christians claim their gods cause bad things too.

For example their gods made Katrina devastate New Orleans because of the gays.

So some Christians are consistent in this respect.

[Mariana]

43. But when they say stuff like that

a bunch of other Christians always jump up to insist that those consistent Christians aren't really Christians at all!

[guillaumeb]

15. Perhaps you missed the point of my post.

[MineralMan]

16. Perhaps not.

[Igel]

19. It's illogical to ascribe to the president

what his employees and what those who aren't his employees do. But we do it all the time.

To some extent, inspiration matters. To some extent, the person who sets the stage for what others are to do, and who gives them direction, matters. What was done by Obama's folk under the direction of folk who didn't necessary take direct orders from Obama but who acted with his authority was attributed to Obama. Quite illogical. The government didn't create a single job except those for new government workers. And yet we followed the illogic and, assuming the illogic true, praised Obama.

My superintendent gets credit for raising or falling test scores in my school. I get credit for raising test scores in my class (or, conversely, the blame). But they're not my test scores. Ultimately the test scores depend on the students, but, oddly, they never get the credit or the blame. When most of them stay out late working, partying, or come to class after 1 hour of sleep or high, it's my fault. When I get a class where most of them get to bed by 10 pm, don't need to work, and whose parents monitor them for drug use so they at the very least don't show up in class and get high in the bathroom, I get the credit for their work.

It's stupid, but you know, it's what most people do, it's what the press does, it's what the idjit in the Dept. of Education thinks, whether Duncan or DeVoss, whether installed by Obama or Trump who believes that the position somehow increases or diminishes student achievement.

So here's a question. Paul argues that Israel paid tithes to Melchizedek via Abraham. In other words, there's an example of agency being done by proxy. Rather like "I cut my hair" can leave out the actual person who wielded the scissors and comb. How does *that* even work, since we apparently are beings that exist purely in logical terms, only direct cause and effect being allowed?

[trotsky]

20. So god is like a president?

Just a human like the rest of us, with no real control over anything, just the ability to tell people to do stuff?

If you're going to try and use an analogy to cover for your god, you need a better one.

[edhopper]

21. The question isn't if

people are inspired by a God they think exists.
The question is if that God actually directs people to build these things?
The President is real and we can see how he sets thing in motion.
We can say, the President said this and then that happened.
On the other hand people with psychosis do things because they are inspired by purely imaginary things.
So are these Gods real and do their actions cause these creations?

[edhopper]

25. Why don't the people who see God

in all these buildings, don't also acknowledge that Zeus, Jupiter and Athena must also be real because of the amazing Temples they inspired?

[MineralMan]

26. Well, see, some people like to use the word "Creator," because

it is inclusive of all deity figures. That way, they don't have to focus in on one God, since there are and have been so many.

It's a way to diffuse the discussion.

Really, it's just about a sense of "awe" in experiencing some complex and impressive human engineering or artistic accomplishment. It's important to somehow give the credit to the invisible deity for some reason.

It's all pretty much nonsense, really. Humans are the creators of all human-made things. No deities required.

A person who has created nothing of importance cannot imagine anyone creating things of importance. I think that's it in a nutshell.

[Major Nikon]

29. The idea was popularized by many of the Founding Fathers

Much like today, it was pretty unpopular to be an atheist. Deism was essentially religion for atheists as it professed a non-interventionist god.

[MineralMan]

30. Yup. It's too hard to explain, otherwise.

Deities are very useful at times. It's good to have one to fall back on, especially if it's a vague one. "Creator" is a vague word. It's a useful word if you don't want to get into a theological discussion at the moment.

[Major Nikon]

31. It was a brilliant stroke for the times

I suspect the idea what hatched in a brainstorming session. Something like, hey people have been inventing self-serving deities throughout history. Why can't we do that? OK, we'll invent a god that doesn't give a shit about what we do so organized religion is completely unnecessary.

[edhopper]

34. You mean the same people

who think the God of the Bible told a small group of the right people about the Big Bang and bio-chemistry?

[uriel1972]

35. but not about microbiology? ... nt

[Doodley]

52. If I built a robot and that robot built things, I think it would be fair to give me some credit.

[rickford66]

56. If they were God inspired they would have been designed better.

There was a sort of competition to build the highest cathedral in the world. A few collapsed as building techniques were modified and improved. A few today are help up with steel beams and most are under constant repair. There's always a donation appreciated for those repairs. I studied these in college art history and have been lucky to visit those in England and France while on business. Awe inspiring but man designed and built. Most have amazing acoustics and if anyone has the chance to hear a choir in one, don't miss it.

[MineralMan]

59. I played in an orchestra, accompanying a choir, in Canterbury Cathedral.

The acoustics were remarkable. Either performing or listening is quite an experience in such a place. It was a high point in my years playing the oboe.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

57. I really object to people attributing

cures for diseases or successful surgery to God, not medicine. Excuse me? It was the doctors, the nurses, the researchers, who cured or fixed you, not an invisible friend.

[3catwoman3]

58. I agree. On a related but much more trivial...

...note, it always irritates the hell out of me when athletes credit God/gawd for their victories