Abide in Darkness: China's War on Religion Stalls Vatican Deal

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

A landmark agreement aimed at healing a nearly 70-year rift between Beijing and the Vatican is in limbo as the Chinese government tightens control over religion.
The Vatican had hoped to clear the biggest hurdle to the deal—intended to bring together China’s state-backed and unauthorized Catholic communities—at a meeting this month, people familiar with the talks said, but it has yet to be scheduled.

To read more:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/abide-in-darkness-chinas-war-on-religion-puts-vatican-deal-in-doubt-1525858496

More intolerance for religion by the non-theists who run China. Please remind me that some intolerance is allowable.

[Major Nikon]

1. How much of the RCC's intolerance should be allowed?

[Eko]

2. Maybe Jesus didnt really like organized religion?

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

[Major Nikon]

3. He still relied on the collection plate for his livelihood

One can only miracle up so much fish and bread.

[guillaumeb]

4. He did organize His disciples.

And called Peter the metaphorical rock upon which the church would be built.

[Eko]

5. Chruch is not used in a lot of translations

especially in the most accurate ones, they use assembly. Besides, Im sure "church" or "assembly" were just metaphors.

[guillaumeb]

6. Neither of us can sat what form Jesus envisioned,

but He did suggest that we pray in secret. But He also prayed with His disciples on occasion, and He taught large groups, suggesting a public component.

[Eko]

7. Do you think Jesus would like the RCC?

I think he would look at the huge churches, all the wealth and bureaucracy and wonder what went wrong. Just my opinion though. Yours?

[guillaumeb]

9. An interesting question.

Would a teacher from a small town envision a small group growing to have many millions of members?

I think Jesus would recognize and applaud the good, and condemn the bad, while understanding that the bad is part of being human.

[Lordquinton]

33. That's just your opinion

And aligns with your views exactly, interesting that.

[guillaumeb]

36. As do yours.

[Lordquinton]

40. That makes no sense

Can you elaborate?

[edhopper]

28. How many of the quotes in the Bible

are the actual verbatim words of Jesus?

[guillaumeb]

35. I am old, but not that old.

You might look at Jefferson's red Bible for his opinion.

[edhopper]

37. I asked for yours

not TJ's.

Why do you quote Jesus' words as an explanation for something if you don't if know he said them?

[guillaumeb]

39. If I quote them it can safely be assumed

that, while not perhaps literal quotes, I consider them to be valid in substance.

[edhopper]

41. But none of them might be

from the man known as Jesus?

[guillaumeb]

42. No, they might be from His cousin John.

Except that no one in 2000 years has suggested that. And they might be quotes from an alien visitor as well.

[edhopper]

46. Or

that words written decades after the supposed events for which we have actual text only from centuries later might not be accurate at all.

We really have nobevidenceca man named Yeshua said any of those things. Let alone they are the words of God.

[trotsky]

32. So in other words, you've found an interpretation to let you do whatever you want.

Just like every other Christian.

Neat how that works.

[Mariana]

8. Maybe the church is supposed to be as metaphorical as the rock. nt.

[guillaumeb]

10. The earliest churches were small groups who met in houses.

Is a church the building or the people?

[Mariana]

11. Like the underground churches are doing in China.

If the Catholic Church would refrain from interfering in countries' political and secular affairs, the situation in China might be very different.

[guillaumeb]

12. The Chinese leaders are authoritarians.

They are also atheists, but it is the authoritarian part that is the issue here. They will not tolerate any opposition, domestic or foreign.

[Mariana]

13. The Church doesn't have to be in opposition.

Church officials could just concern themselves with the religious lives of Church members, but they don't do that. They insist upon trying to control the lives of everyone else, too.

[MineralMan]

14. The Roman Catholic Church hierarchy is also authoritarian in nature.

I see precious little difference, historically.

[guillaumeb]

15. All hierarchical institutions are authoritarian.

Inherent in the concept.

[MineralMan]

16. So, then, why should the Chinese authoritarians not reject

the Roman Catholic authoritarians? I say that it makes sense for them to do just that.

Personally, I dislike both forms of authoritarianism, and the concept of authority in general.

Is it, in your view, bad that the Chinese don't want Catholicism in their country? It appears that such distinctions are rather common out there on this planet. Cultures wish to preserve their culture and keep ideas that are not in line with that culture from gaining a foothold.

That pretty much describes every culture, really.

Is China in "darkness?" Really? Is Roman Catholicism not in "darkness" from the Chinese point of view.

This is all silliness, really.

[guillaumeb]

17. So Chines authoritarians should engage in intolerance because it is expected of them?

An interesting rationalization on your part.

[MineralMan]

18. Oh, dear... Authoritarians are intolerant.

It's part of the job description.

[trotsky]

22. Keep in mind, gil's go-to example for real, actual atheist "intolerance"...

is when Boston Atheists kicked a Trump supporter out of their group, because they identified Hillary Clinton as the better candidate to protect church-state separation.

That's the best he's got. Really. "Intolerance" of a Trump-humper.

[MineralMan]

23. I had forgotten that one.

Either that, or I had attributed it to another anti-atheist former member. It's hard to keep track, really.

[Major Nikon]

24. Best to put a lid on shit like that right away

The next thing you know atheists will be getting laws passed that codify their intolerance and direct tax dollars to their causes.

[guillaumeb]

38. "Mansplaining".

[Major Nikon]

43. ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283979

[guillaumeb]

44. And, for those who might wish to read your own words:

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=12711

I have yet to see one person on DU reasonably quantify how men are more advantaged than women

When asked, the standard answer is, 'men make 23%(actually 19.5%) more than women'. Naturally they don't want to hear that when relevant sociological factors are applied, the actually gender pay gap which could possibly be attributed to discrimination is statistically negligible. They also don't want to hear that men spend 29% more time working. Neither do they want to hear that men are disparately impacted by 14 of the 15 leading causes of death. So our 'advantage' is that we are wage slaves and get to die 5 years sooner.

[Major Nikon]

47. Stalking

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283961

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283964

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283960

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283987

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=283703

[Mariana]

29. He bought into the Trumpeter's side of the story 100%, too.

We all know how honest and trustworthy Trump supporters are, right? In fact, we know the booted Trumpeter is a liar, because he accused the Boston Atheists of violating his right to freedom of speech. Of course, they didn't do that even if the Trumpeter's account is correct. So Gil took the word of a known liar as gospel, so to speak.

[trotsky]

31. Gil has shown a consistent willingness to link to and defend some pretty nasty sites.

To be fair, it's mostly because of his initial sloppiness in finding something condemning atheism or promoting religion and excitedly posting the link here, only much to his chagrin later discovering the true nature of the author or site.

Sadly though his initial reaction is always to defend and deflect rather than just admit error and delete the post.

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. The Is-Ought Problem giving you some trouble this morning?

[MineralMan]

21. Even on a very small scale, some people believe they should

have the ability to control what others say and believe. Isn't that odd?

[guillaumeb]

45. Yes, and the 11th Commandment devotees are evidence of that.

Amazing that you brought that one up, but thank you. It is obvious that the 11th Commandment devotees wish to discourage positive posts about religion. So we agree on that.

[Lordquinton]

34. It's what the RCC does

And we are informed that we should be tolerant of their intolerance.

Really funny how defensive you get when people use religion's methods against them.

[trotsky]

19. Accuracy matters, gil.

More intolerance for religion by the Communists who run China.

Religion competes with the Communist agenda, gil. Nothing about atheism says that religion must be controlled or eliminated.

[Major Nikon]

25. Whatabout their atheism belief system?

[trotsky]

26. That they learned from the atheist bible?

Oh yeah, that one!

[Major Nikon]

27. Yeah, the one that tells them to kill all the non-believers

[trotsky]

30. Ah yes, the book of Dawkins!

Chapter 5, verse 14.