Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

MineralMan

(146,298 posts)
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 04:40 PM Dec 2018

Imagine a World Where Not Believing in Some Old Myth

didn't come with threats of an eternity in Hell. I can imagine that pretty easily. I've been imagining it for over 50 years. Sadly, it's too late in our history to have that. How much farther would we have progressed? How many millions would not have died due to religion-generated genocide? How many would not have been executed for heresy or apostasy? How many children would not have been sexually abused by leaders of the dominant religion? How many indigenous peoples would still live where they did before Europeans arrived? It's worth thinking about.

29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Imagine a World Where Not Believing in Some Old Myth (Original Post) MineralMan Dec 2018 OP
How about just being able to rid ourselves of the notion that some unknowable entity... trotsky Dec 2018 #1
How about that, indeed? MineralMan Dec 2018 #6
Yes (n/t) PJMcK Dec 2018 #27
The answer to that is, we'd be far worse off. Glamrock Dec 2018 #2
Oh, no doubt, according to some, MineralMan Dec 2018 #9
Never understood that line of logic. Glamrock Dec 2018 #12
Maybe you should put some of those on your bucket list marylandblue Dec 2018 #15
You ain't right Glamrock Dec 2018 #21
Lots of people believe in eternal damnation, but also believe THEIR actions are OK. trotsky Dec 2018 #28
Good point Glamrock Dec 2018 #29
"Divine Judgement"... NeoGreen Dec 2018 #3
A very wise meme, indeed! MineralMan Dec 2018 #7
Wait a minute... MoonchildCA Dec 2018 #4
Yes. I believe so. MineralMan Dec 2018 #5
We would not have had certain wars. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #8
Ah...So the occasional good outweighs the massive evils? MineralMan Dec 2018 #10
"Occasional" good? The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #11
Did you balance in the centuries religious Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #14
A lot of the relics and buildings of those destroyed ancient cultures were also religious. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2018 #19
When I balance the positive contributions of religion MineralMan Dec 2018 #17
I look more to the first part qazplm135 Dec 2018 #23
Yeah but it wouldn't be perfect! Voltaire2 Dec 2018 #13
LOL! MineralMan Dec 2018 #18
What about believing in some new myth? Igel Dec 2018 #16
I am happy to be your inspiration. guillaumeb Dec 2018 #20
Your mood is not my concern. MineralMan Dec 2018 #22
Is this your mantra? guillaumeb Dec 2018 #24
No mantras for me. MineralMan Dec 2018 #25
Not sure how much difference it would make Raven123 Dec 2018 #26

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
1. How about just being able to rid ourselves of the notion that some unknowable entity...
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 05:04 PM
Dec 2018

has a specific plan for us, and that certain people know what it is, and we should listen to them?

Why not just analyze what everyone has to say, and sort out the good ideas from the bad ones, and embrace the good?

Why can someone say that because their imaginary friend has endorsed a certain rule, it is automatically good?

Glamrock

(11,800 posts)
2. The answer to that is, we'd be far worse off.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 05:23 PM
Dec 2018

Without the fear of eternal damnation, what incentive would people have to be decent?

Yeah man, I don't buy that shit either.

MineralMan

(146,298 posts)
9. Oh, no doubt, according to some,
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 06:21 PM
Dec 2018

who can, apparently, cannot restrain themselves from rank mayhem without the fear of eternal damnation.

Glamrock

(11,800 posts)
12. Never understood that line of logic.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 07:06 PM
Dec 2018

I have no fear of damnation, nor a belief in it. Yet, I've never raped, robbed, beaten, killed, or tortured for fun. I'm kind to animals and others, worry about my fellow man, and give to charity. Surely puzzling ain't it? Shouldn't, I be a downright son-of-a-bitch?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
15. Maybe you should put some of those on your bucket list
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 07:57 PM
Dec 2018

Just to make sure you aren't interested in doing them.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
28. Lots of people believe in eternal damnation, but also believe THEIR actions are OK.
Mon Dec 17, 2018, 09:46 AM
Dec 2018

The murderer of George Tiller, for instance, thought he was righteously visiting god's judgment down on a baby killer.

Belief in eternal damnation is no hindrance to bad behavior, and can actually increase its chances.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,686 posts)
8. We would not have had certain wars.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 06:20 PM
Dec 2018

Some scholars have opined that of 1,763 wars in recorded history, only 123 were motivated by religious causes, accounting for less than seven percent of all wars and less than two percent of all people killed in warfare. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-alan-lurie/is-religion-the-cause-of-_b_1400766.html It's true that many people have used religion as an excuse for behaving very badly. But it's too simple to say that none of these bad acts would have occurred if religion did not exist. Some clergymen abuse children, but so do some scout leaders, coaches and teachers. Would European settlers in America not have committed genocide against Native Americans if there had been no religion? Would our society be far more advanced if religion had never existed? I doubt it. We human behave badly because we are animals - like gorillas or lions - who are motivated, perhaps genetically (like gorillas and lions) to seize territory in order to maintain power, protect our tribes and our assets and further our genetic lines, not to establish the validity or supremacy of our "god."

Without religion we wouldn't have had the Crusades or the Thirty Years' War or the massacre of the Cathars. We also wouldn't have the great cathedrals of Europe, and maybe not even the engineering that made them possible. If you don't feel inspired by a belief in a god to build edifices that reach to heaven, why would you go to that effort and expense when your little mud hut is sufficient for your solitary, nasty, brutish, poor, short life? Without religion we wouldn't have the glorious music of Palestrina or Gabrieli or Bach's B-minor Mass. We wouldn't have the Sistine Chapel or Michelangelo's painting on its ceiling; we wouldn't have Van Eyck's Ghent Altarpiece (and maybe he wouldn't have bothered to develop the art of oil painting at all). We wouldn't have Angkor Wat or the Taj Mahal or the Izomu-taisha temple or the Great Buddha of Bodh Gaya. We wouldn't have the poetry of William Blake or George Herbert or T.S. Elliot's Ash Wednesday or the writings of Thich Nhat Hahn or Thomas Merton or the magnificent language of the King James Bible. Religion has inspired great art and great acts of charity as well as great evil. If nobody had a sense of any force greater than themselves or a desire to explore whatever that might be, would we nevertheless strive for some transcendently beautiful expression?

I'm not a believer but I'm glad to be living in a world that includes Chartres Cathedral and J.S. Bach. Religion has been responsible for great art and great evil. I think the evil would still have existed without religion, but I'm not so sure about the art.

MineralMan

(146,298 posts)
10. Ah...So the occasional good outweighs the massive evils?
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 06:23 PM
Dec 2018

I see...

Artistic genius will create, whatever the environment.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,686 posts)
11. "Occasional" good?
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 06:27 PM
Dec 2018

I don't think the enormous contribution to our culture to be just an "occasional" good, and as I said, not every evil (nor even most of them) can be attributed to a specifically religious motivation. I don't hate religion, although it's not my thing. I look at it as an attribute that reflects the psychology of humanity, good and evil, rather than controlling it.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,686 posts)
19. A lot of the relics and buildings of those destroyed ancient cultures were also religious.
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 08:47 PM
Dec 2018

For example: The Taliban obliterated the 6th-century Buddhas of Bamiyan. ISIL has destroyed at least 28 historical religious buildings. Henry VIII dissolved the Catholic monasteries in England and destroyed many of them. The Crusaders burned down the ancient synagogue in Jerusalem in the 11th century. The Maya codices, which were records of gods and rituals, were destroyed by the priest Diego de Landa. A large number of Hindu temples were destroyed during the Islamic invasions of India. Quite a bit of what remains of ancient culture consists of buildings, books, artwork and records with religious connotations. So does it matter if newer religions destroy relics of the older ones because they're all bad?

MineralMan

(146,298 posts)
17. When I balance the positive contributions of religion
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 08:38 PM
Dec 2018

against the harm it has done though out history, yes it's an occasional good thing. Art and music would still have been created, and might even have developed to be even more beautiful. Science would have flourished sooner.

I know something of history. On balance, I believe religion has done more harm than good in sum.

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
23. I look more to the first part
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:12 PM
Dec 2018

and the suggestion that the world wouldn't be much better without religion than with.

Religion is a tool, it's a symptom, it's a result...it isn't a cause or the disease.

Remove it and you still have the same humans doing the same fucked up shit, just with a different "reason" or "excuse."

Science was used to justify slavery. That's not science's problem, that's humans being humans.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
16. What about believing in some new myth?
Fri Dec 14, 2018, 07:58 PM
Dec 2018

That's the cause of most of the truly horrible things in the last century. New myths. Even Salafism to a large extent is a modern idealized view of how perfect society was, as most rump civilizations tend to do, to say why they should rule the world and they, among all peoples, show how humans should truly think, act, and believe.

The deaths under the Inquisition are usually exaggerated. They pick a couple of hotbeds of anti-heretical zealotry and expand it to include everywhere (picking a different 'random sample' leads to smaller numbers, but oddly it's always the same random sample that's picked).

Tribal genocide over women, land, and perceived (or real) slights probably accounts for more. But that not only doesn't feed a new myth, it counters a new myth and is therefore completely unfactual. Whatever the evidence.

MineralMan

(146,298 posts)
22. Your mood is not my concern.
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 11:16 AM
Dec 2018

Try shifting your focus outside of yourself. It would be an interesting exercise, and possibly informative.

Raven123

(4,837 posts)
26. Not sure how much difference it would make
Sat Dec 15, 2018, 08:00 PM
Dec 2018

While I agree that it is a sad observation on the the humane race that religious beliefs or lack thereof have led to atrocious behavior, I’m not sure that a world where non belief in a myth would result threat to spend eternity in hell would prevent the ills you mention. I think one would have to do a rather in-depth hsirotical study to draw any kind of conclusion.

Living in a world of “alternative facts” makes me suspect that “myth making” simply be one of those characteiistics the human mind.

Just a thought

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Imagine a World Where Not...