Religion
Related: About this forumScientology Is Not a Religion
Germany treats L. Ron Hubbards movement as a cult and a threat to democracy. The U.S. should follow its example.
By James Kirchick|July 24, 2012 7:00 AM
In the 1930s it was the Jews. Today it is the Scientologists. So read a full-page open letter, published in the International Herald Tribune on Jan. 9, 1997, to then-German Chancellor Helmut Kohl. Signed by 34 prominent figures in the entertainment industrynone of them Scientologists and many of them Jewsthe letter went on to accuse the German government of repeating the deplorable tactics of Nazi Germany against the self-proclaimed religion started in 1952 by science-fiction author L. Ron Hubbard.
This initiative, endorsed by the likes of Goldie Hawn, Larry King, Dustin Hoffman, and Oliver Stone, was orchestrated not by the Church of Scientology but by Bertram Fields, lawyer to the sects most famous member, Tom Cruise. Yet it conformed to the Churchs campaign, started several years earlier, to brand modern Germany as akin to the Third Reich. A Scientology-sponsored ad that ran on Sept. 29, 1994, in the Washington Post, for instance, declared that 50 years after the Holocaust neo-Nazi extremism is on the march in a reunited Germany. In 1996, a Scientology advertisement in the New York Times stated, You may wonder why German officials discriminate against Scientologists. There is no legitimate reason but then there was none that justified the persecution of the Jewish people either.
By likening the German governments treatment of Scientologists to Nazi barbarism, the Church of Scientology didnt just draw a vulgar comparison: It turned the countrys official anti-Scientology posture on its head. Since the Church established itself here in 1970, the German government has waged a long-running legal and political battle against it. The government makes its logic plain: Because of its history of Nazism, Germany believes it has an obligation to root out extremists, and not just those of a political flavor. In the eyes of most Germans, Scientology is nothing more than a cult with authoritarian designs on the countrys hard-won pluralistic democracy.
While several governments around the world have set up commissions to study Scientology in order to determine whether it qualifies as a religion, Germany broke new ground when, in 1992, the city of Hamburg set up a Scientology Task Force to monitor the group, assist members who have left the Church and are thus cut off from their families, and discourage citizens from joining it in the first place. (That office, which maintained a vast and extensive archive of official Scientology documents, many of them classified by the Church, was closed due to government budget cuts in 2010.)
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Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It's all about numbers and political power.
Put the Scientology story and the story of Jesus side by side and tell them to a child that has heard neither and they will see both as ridiculous stories. Or equally possible.
ilikeitthatway
(143 posts)Scientology is as much of a religion as Catholicism, Baptist, Judaism, Mormonism, and so on.
The level of danger perpetrated by each of these religions, that's debatable.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)but technically, I think you are correct.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)but since the Scientologist say they are a religion they must be a religion just like if someone calls themself an agnostic and not an atheist they can only be an agnostic and it would be insulting to some people to say otherwise.
longship
(40,416 posts)I think we all know what a religion is here. Each religion can fairly be defined by their beliefs. And, in this respect, maybe Scientology qualifies as a religion.
However, although the definition of cult seems to overlap with that of religion, I firmly believe that in this context, what people mean by cult is in a negative sense. In that sense I prefer to defer to one of the experts on this subject, Rick Ross whose vast compendium of data on cults (at link) is probably the most complete on the Net.
Ross uses a definition that's more restrictive. A cult is not defined by its beliefs, but by its behaviors, its actions.
By Ross's criteria (again, at link), Scientology clearly qualifies as a cult. They disconnect members from non-cult family and friends. They are secretive of their true beliefs. They control members' lives in ways that mere religions do not -- particularly within Scientology's secretive SeaOrg. They have a business model which extorts money from members to advance in the church. And don't get me started on their denial of psychiatry.
In short, Scientology is a dangerous, destructive cult.
And, yes, Tom Cruise is an idiot.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I have had difficulty articulating the difference, but this is good.
And I agree that Scientology is a dangerous, destructive cult and that Tom Cruise is an idiot.
See you in church!
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I was raised Roman Catholic. Let's check out your indicators:
My mother would have had a stroke much earlier in life if I had married a non-Catholic. My sister-in-laws Christian church told my neice at graduation that they shouldn't hang out with non-Christians when they go away to college.
Just ask some people on here about their belief in transubstantiation.
That's pretty subjective. The RCC tries very hard to control people to a very small level of detail.
Perhaps not for advancement in the church but my mom's parish convinced her to donate many thousands of dollars for church improvements before her death and it was very clear that they made her feel as if it was an indication of the type of person that she was.
longship
(40,416 posts)Again, it's about behavior.
Maybe you could look into exactly what Scientology does to what they call SP's (suppressive persons). Look at how they demand disconnection from all family members who quit the church. The Catholic church doesn't do these things. Nor do the Catholics hide what they believe. There's no silly Xenu hiding in Catholicism which you have to pay millions to learn about. I was raised Protestant in a Catholic neighborhood and even I knew about transubstantiation.
I will stand by my post.
Plus, I will go further. L Ron Hubbard was a drunkard, and a tax criminal. I know, ad hominem. So be it. Scientology should come under the RICO statutes.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)A saint as pure as the driven snow when compared to a lot of popes and the pedophile priests they've protected for centuries, if you want to go that route.
I think part of what GM was pointing out is that the elements are there in different religions - it's just a matter of degree. Where you want to draw the line between "cult" and "religion" seems to be pretty arbitrary.
longship
(40,416 posts)1. Paying big bucks to become "clear" of the alien body Thetans infesting your brain. Of course, it's only after paying big bucks that you learn about Xenu, the space DC-8's, the volcano sacrifice, all of which are the origin of the evil body Thetans infesting your brain. Sheesh! Scientologists really believe this.
2. Psychiatry denial. No! All brain science is wrong. It's the body Thetans causing your problems! Sheesh! You might as well say that it's bananas in your brain. Scientologists really believe this.
3. Disconnection from friends and family. This is classic cult behavior. No, I am not talking about Mom not approving your marriage. I am talking about disconnection! You have no family who are not Scientologists. Cult!
4. SeaOrg where typical cult indoctrination is practiced.
But don't take my word for it.
You can find out all about it at Operation Clambake which reveals all.
Also, in my above post, Rick Ross's cult awareness site (which is a definitive source) on how cults can be defined.
By any rational interpretation, Scientology qualifies.
And L Ron Hubbard was still a drunkard and he was a tax criminal.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)1. Indulgences, anyone? Especially as they were used in the past.
2. The Catholic Church in particular has been extremely hostile toward science in general for a good portion of its early history, continuing in certain areas today. There are certainly Catholics (and many other Christians) alive today who would say that mental illness is caused by demonic possession, etc. This is fundamentally different than Thetans in what way?
3. Again it's a matter of degree - and that degree has varied over time. Look at the segregation of Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, for instance.
4. Priest class? Vatican?
I'm not arguing that Scientology *isn't* a cult, but that the line is a lot harder to draw than you seem to think.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Yes many Xian groups try to restrict access to nonbelievers, shun apostates, squeeze for money and have some reluctance to be specific about some beliefs without being forced to talk about them. But none I can think of does all those things, and none does any of them to the extant of Scientology (Mormon apostate treatment and inner temples come closest). Even the Mormons however don't have a price list for secret dogma accessible to different levels of believer, and the trick in that faith is to avoid getting forced to talk to nonbelievers who will challenge your beliefs all day. Pained reminders from the pulpit of St. Brigid's that tithes are 10% of gross income and that roofs dont re-lead themselves for free ae a little bit different from $10,000 to find out more about Xenu we haven't told you yet. So are disapproving gasps from the blue-rinse set when you marry a Protestant a bit different from guarded confinement to Scientology property for listening to nonbelievers talk about brainwashing.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And Christianity has had roughly 1950 more years than Scientology to evolve and adapt. Take a look at some of the stories in the book of Acts to see if you recognize more cult-like activity in early Christianity.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)There is no bright shining line of course, and there are quite a few very cultish sects of Christianity even today. But on an overall and even a statistical basis I don't think you could call very much of today's Christianity a cult as we understand it, a few snakehandler shacks or prosperity gospel swindles notwithstanding.
To me though cult and religion are not mutually exclusive, but not inclusive really either. To get back to the OP yes Scientology is very much a religion (and a cult too) by any but the most tortured definition.
Belief system codified?
Set of constraints on necessary held beliefs to be a member in good standing?
Connection of humanity to the spiritual or supernatural?
Explicative of basic origins and/or purpose?
Essential narratives and symbols?
Yep it has them all. It even has the optional trappings - sermons, clergy, meetings, texts, behavioral strictures, life-stage rituals, evangelism.
Sure it's possible to write and legislate a specific defintion of the word "religion" that excludes it, just like you can define and legislate any term for a specific purpose. But unless you set out trying to define religion to exclude such examples, any dispassionate and objective review of what constitutes a religion throughout history would definitely include them.
Observant readers will note none of the criteria apply to atheism (attempts to come up with a single universal symbol haven't even worked out, let alone the rest).
trotsky
(49,533 posts)dmallind
(10,437 posts)I think this will work.....
I tried to get scales close but probably made cults too big
longship
(40,416 posts)That is a different discussion altogether and one I would happy to indulge in an appropriate thread. But this one was about whether scientology is a cult.
But, yes, Catholics have acted like thugs.
Okay?
Please do check out the Rick Ross site. It is very informative.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'm not arguing that Scientology *isn't* a cult, but that the line is a lot harder to draw than you seem to think.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Is the size of the congregation.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Seem pretty polite.
The marquee behind them reads "Scientology Church." That might be a clue to whether scientology is a religion.
I myself prefer the ancient definition: a cult is a religion which hasn't yet attained political influence.
sakabatou
(42,174 posts)How many were beaten in the streets, the businesses burned and run-out of the country?
Yeah...
trotsky
(49,533 posts)From Wikipedia: "The Church of Scientology promotes Scientology, a body of beliefs and related practices created by L. Ron Hubbard, starting in 1952"
Do you think that if Scientology HAD been around in Nazi Germany, they wouldn't have been rounded up along with all other groups?
sakabatou
(42,174 posts)But in today's time, it an great exaggeration.
dmallind
(10,437 posts)You really think Scientologists wouldn't have had their own.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)And an even harder one is who wore the black ones?
dmallind
(10,437 posts)Gypsys were brown I think. Red? Something to do with military. POW? Spies? Gays were pink of course. I think there was a green too but no idea who. Rather stereotypical Teutonic approach to so rigorously organize groups seen as human garbage.
FWIW, red triangles included liberals, trade unionists, royalists, & Freemasons (amongst others).
I remember being mildly horrified when I saw the article below and realised quite how many
categories of "undesirables" were sent to their deaths in the camps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badges
2ndAmForComputers
(3,527 posts)So subjective, in fact, the term becomes kind of pointless. It ends up just being code for "I don't like that religion."
That's why I think all religions ARE cults. (But no, not all of them are EQUALLY toxic. Far from it.)