Religion
Related: About this forum‘Intelligent Design’ Not Enough For Creationists, Now The Push For ‘Divine Mathematics’
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/08/08/intelligent-design-not-enough-for-creationists-now-the-push-for-divine-mathematics/August 8, 2012
By Nathaniel Downes
For years now we have seen people seeking to push the bible into the science classroom. However, the move in recent years to push the religiously based charter school system has opened up a new front in the war to erode critical thinking skills. No longer satisfied with pushing the rubbish of Creationism or abstinence only health education, now a new model is out, attacking the foundation of mathematics itself.
The A Beka Book company provides a great deal of the literature for these religious schools. We come to expect dominionists to push for their lies about science and history, but the A Beka Book company produces a whole range of dominionist school textbooks, including a revisionist form of mathematics not based on logic nor reason but instead mathematics are a creation of God and thus absolute.
Here is an example, taken from the A Beka Book piece titled The Christian Approach to Elementary Math originally published in 1980 and still used in their latest titles:
Note they call their Divine Mathematics traditional math in order to make it sound acceptable to a particular group of people. They are targeting the easily deceived who then feel that they are trying to restore tradition. They even claim that a student does not need to understand 2+2=4, only to accept it as a sign of divinity.*
more at link
DCKit
(18,541 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)ashling
(25,771 posts)the exchange (1st 3 numbers of the "traditional" 5 digit phone number - after the "non-traditional" atheistic area code - notice that the word "atheism" begins with the letter a and the name of this new, i.e., "non-traditional" code in front begins and ends with the letter a)
Anyway, our new telephone number starts with 666.
When Ms. Ashling got the phone set up the lady gave her our number, my wife chuckled. The lady immediately said "we can change that if you would like". My wife said no, that it was perfectly fine with her.
Last week we got the first call here from my mother in law. My wife hd left her cell phone in her purse in the kitchen and I heard it ring about 5 time in a row. Then the land line rang. It was my mil.
I told Ms A. that she finally had to get up the nerve to dial the 666.
HeiressofBickworth
(2,682 posts)A dozen or so years ago, I (a corporate paralegal) filed articles of incorporation on behalf of a client with the Secretary of State's office. When they receive documents for filing, they are stamped with sequential numbers (you can see where this is going). When the filed document came back from the State, the client had a medium-hissy fit and demanded that I change the offending 666 portion of the number. I explained that the number was issued by the State and that I wasn't the one to change it. I said I would call the State and see if there was any method of changing the filing number. To my great surprise, the clerk I talked with had no problem, changed the number, mailed a new cover-sheet with the new number and the client was greatly relieved that the mark of the devil wasn't on the new business venture.
ashling
(25,771 posts)When I was working for a title insurance company in D.C. there was in the local legal news rag a legal notice filed of a request for name change. Some guy wanted to change his name to "666"
That was a real hoot for me and another title examiner there. One of the record books that frequently came up in our searches was book 666. When I used it I would leave it on his desk and vice versa.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)It's an article called What do Christian fundamentalists have against set theory? by Maggie Koerth-Baker.
She says its symptomatic of a deeper conflict with the modern world.
Instead, they see modernism as the opposing worldview to their own. They are all about tradition (or, at least, what they have decided is traditional). Modernism is a knee-jerk rejection of tradition in favor of the new. Obviously, they think a very specific sort of Christian God should be the center of everything and all parts of society, public and private. Modernists prefer ideas like secular humanism and think God is something you should be doing in private, on your own time. They believe strongly in the importance of power hierarchies and rules. Modernism smashes all of that and says, Hey, just do your own thing. Nobodys ideas are any better or worse than anybody elses. Theres no right and wrong. Go crazy, man! [Insert obligatory bongo drumming session]
I am hamming this up a bit, but you get the picture. Modernism, to the publishers of A Beka math books, is sick and wrong. The idea is that if you reject their specific idea of God and their specific idea of The Rules, then you must be living in a crazy, dangerous world. You could kill people, and you would think it was okay, because youre a modernist and you know theres really no such thing as right and wrong. Basically, theyve bumped into a need to separate themselves from the almost inhuman Other on a massive scale, and latched on to modernism as a shorthand for how to do that. It doesnt matter what you or I actually believe, or even what we actually do. They know what we MUST believe and what we MUST be like because of the tenets of modernism.
I understand this. Theyve been brought up to think the godless world is a deeply dangerous threat to everything they hold precious, and its simpler to just shut down any thing that has to do with it. Its like somebody has been told that some mushrooms are delicious, and others are deadly poisonous, and theyve been told that they can, if theyre very careful, tell the difference between them and they choose to never, ever eat mushrooms because they dont want to go to the bother of learning how, and they also dont want to put anyone they love at any risk at all. So theyre very, very cautious about new ideas, because their social structure is both important to them and sensitive to external perturbations.
I can even sympathize with this conclusion.
If this sounds crazy ... youre right. Its pretty crazy. In fact, its this kind of thinking, and my realization that it was based fundamentally on lying about everybody who wasnt a member of your religious tribe, that led me away from religion to begin with. Ironically. But there is a coherent thought process going on here, and I want you to understand that. If all you do is point and laugh at the fundies for calling set theory evil, then you are missing the point. This isnt about them being stupid. Its about who they think you are.
I read Koerth-Bakers piece and had no problem putting myself in their shoes: if someone were making a serious challenge to my social and intellectual framework, if I were concerned that some blundering clod could come along and with some thoughtless nudge, knock it all down, Id be protective and suspicious, too. I would be building fences around my world to keep those evil insensitive assholes out.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)the idea that somebody just wanted to make their fortune selling math textbooks in Texas.
Set theory and basic mathematics are not "new" ideas, and I struggle to see how they threaten the fundamentalist's beliefs.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)So, it appears that the major objections are:
1) Math as currently taught is not absolute enough.
2) They can't deal with the concept of infinity.
3) "Modernism" (as defined in the article) is a serious threat to them
Wow, this is even crazier than the evolution deniers.
Great article, and worth reading twice.
Thanks.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)but others are not?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)In order to accept the fundamentalist view, one must reject biology, astronomy, geology, much of physics, some significant parts of chemistry and even mathematics.
In his De Genisi Ad Litteram -- "On the Literal Meaning of Genesis" is about as close as English can come to a translation, the literal meaning is "On Genesis to the Letter" -- Augustine of Hippo wrote
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, which people see as ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.
The shame is not so much that an ignorant person is laughed at, but rather that people outside the faith believe that we hold such opinions, and thus...are rejected as ignorant and unlearned. If they find a Christian mistaken in a subject that they know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions based on our teachings, how are they going to believe these teachings in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think that these teachings are filled with fallacies about facts which they have learnt from experience and reason?
Reckless and presumptuous expounders of Scripture bring about much harm when they are caught in their mischievous false opinions by those not bound by our sacred texts. And even more so when they then try to defend their rash and obviously untrue statements by quoting a shower of words from Scripture and even recite from memory passages which they think will support their case "without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions." (Timothy 1 )
Augustine is saying that denying science is both bad science and bad religion.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"In order to accept the fundamentalist view, one must reject biology, astronomy, geology, much of physics, some significant parts of chemistry and even mathematics."
Many non-fundamentalists, right here in this very group, believe that Jesus Christ was physically raised from the dead. One must reject biology, physics, and chemistry to believe that. Does that make their belief in a physical resurrection crazy? Am I allowed to say that?
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Many non-fundamentalists, right here in this very group, believe that Jesus Christ was physically raised from the dead. One must reject biology, physics, and chemistry to believe that. Does that make their belief in a physical resurrection crazy? Am I allowed to say that?
Since Christ's resurrection (which was a one-shot deal and a miracle in the literal meaning of the word) does not deny biology, physics and chemistry, your question is meaningless.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)which involved a one-shot deal, be a way to deny biology, physics, and chemistry then?
Seems to me you're just engaging in special pleading.
onager
(9,356 posts)Don't you believers ever bother to read your own fan-fic before you post in here?
According to the Buy-bull, Alleged Jesus himself raised 3 people from the dead:
1. The daughter of Jairus (Mark 5:22-43)
2. The widow's only son (Luke 7:11-14)
3. Lazarus (John 11:1-44)
So by the time Jesus re-booted, resurrected corpses should have been pretty ho-hum.
Not to mention all those walking dead in the streets of Jerusalem that Jesus resurrected...after he was dead!
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. - Matthew 27:52
Impressive! Well, it would be, if one of the hundreds of literate people living around Jerusalem at the time had bothered to mention it. Which unfortunately they didn't. As usual.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)is the "literal" meaning of the word "miracle"? I defy you to demonstrate that that notion even has any meaning.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)And mention, in the same breath that, "denying reality is crazy".
As Beano Cook would say: "Unbelievable!"
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)Stop Press News! Avowed Christian believes in Christ's Resurrection! Several amazed!
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I remember someone saying that.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)That there is a vast difference between God performing one (1) miracle, and saying that the universe is 10,000 years old.
Or is your intent just to sneer at my faith, and you actually have no interest in any sort of meaningful contribution?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Both contradict vast fields of science, which you admit is crazy.
My intent is to expose your hypocrisy and make you think.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)There is a vast difference between the two, and YOU are the one being hypocritical when you say there is not. There is also a vast difference between fundamentalists and non-fundalmentalist, a difference that either you refuse to see or you refuse to admit.
I think we are done talking to each other. You obviously have nothing concrete to put into the conversation, you just want to sneer at all believers.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)to create the universe and make it LOOK like it's ~15 billion years old. (That is actually a position many creationists hold.)
So yeah, there's no difference. That you won't acknowledge your special pleading when it comes to the religious beliefs YOU hold means that yeah, we're done.
Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)The main reason the fundamentalists claim that the universe is ten thousand years old is that they insist that everything in the Bible is literally true, since God would not lie to us. Yet if God did create the universe ten thousand years ago, but made it look as if it were actually older, then God is lying to us. Hence, there is a logical contradiction.
In the resurrection of Christ, there is no such contradiction. See? A vast difference between the two. Perhaps your bigotry against believers has clouded your ability to do logical thought.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)What you are doing is creating a exception to justify the beliefs that YOU hold which go counter to the fields of physical science so they won't be classified "crazy" by the definition you already agreed to. This is called special pleading, and it's a logical fallacy.
If you argue that a one-time magical intervention by your god can happen without "breaking the rules" (of having crazy beliefs) then you've justified ANY religious belief.
In the alleged resurrection of Jesus, the same contradiction exists. You just don't want to acknowledge it because those are YOUR beliefs and therefore by definition can't be crazy.
At any time, feel free to drop the personal attacks (accusations of bigotry, insulting my intelligence). I think that's what Jesus would want you to do. You know, love your neighbor and all that silly stuff.
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)that a man died then magically came back to life three days later? It's not realistic at all, and yet you deny that it's "crazy", even though one post back you state that, "denying reality is crazy". The doctrine of resurrection is no less silly than the young-earth fundamentalists' belief in a world less than 10,000 years ago.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)because they claim that there is a "deeper reality" more important than the reality of empirical data that can only be found through blind faith and superstition.
exboyfil
(17,862 posts)Must be hard to handle differential Calculus. We can just throw away all the physics and mathematics since Newton. Seems like a rational approach to me.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Mainly because of Zeno's Paradox. I tried to explain to his that Zeno's Paradox wasn't really a paradox and it went all right over his head.
* redundant, I know...
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Or do you feel differently about your beliefs?
Loudly
(2,436 posts)Teaching math by invoking God puts a big bulls eye on teaching biology the same way.
Moostache
(9,895 posts)This is the American Taliban writ large and nothing more.
People who advocate for this kind of crap do so for one reason and one reason alone - POWER. The power that they seek is not in "heaven", it is right here on Earth and it is the power to control the minds of the young and to fight not modernity but the scientific method itself.
They have a losing logical and scientific argument - to fully buy the brand of Christianity these snake oil salesmen peddle, you have to literally believe in talking snakes, suspension of the law of conservation of matter, an Earth centered universe (to be able to command the sun to stop in the sky), superhumans (who can live for 40 days without water, who can survive inside fish without oxygen for days on end, who can live to ages in the 700-800 year range without breakdown of the DNA telomeres apparently), engineering feats like gathering 2 of EVERY surviving species into a single boat and then managing to feed and keep animals for 40 days and 40 nights of tempest...
I could go on and on and on, but the point is not the total absurdity of these beliefs, it is WHY their power players want to flip the board and indoctrinate children without providing them a proper education until well AFTER their minds are molded and formed into good little foot soldiers and drones. Their aim is NOT to educate but to indoctrinate and in that aim they are no different at all from the "radical" mosques that take young Muslim boys and force them to memorize the entirety of the Koran without question or comparative analysis. It is no different than abusing a child daily. It is no different than a sick parent who sexually molests their own child, only instead of sexual abuse, these children are the victims of mental abuse and intellectual rape.
I find it abhorrent that we sit by idly and whistle at the wind politely while these crazies continue to mount ridiculous challenges to the foundation of civilization itself. Without the technological advances of the scientific age, we would have about 1 Billion people total, we would have average life expectancies in the mid-40's (possibly as low as mid-30's in many areas). We would be continual victims to disease all while praying for the demons to leave and performing exorcisms to fight 'Satan'. We would be without electricity and running water and sewage treatment and sanitation.
But we would have a lot of zombified drones spouting the "word of the lord" at every turn. And we would have those at the top of this religious pyramid lording over the ignorant masses with their book of fairy tales and dark foreboding warnings of eternal damnation for anyone with the temerity to suggest otherwise or to dream of a better world built through the use of the brain and reason and a method of critical thinking that they find intolerable.
It is time to call a spade a spade - if you are a sincere "believer" in god or religion or both, you have the same responsibility here as those "peaceful Muslims" that are pilloried for not speaking out against the radical jihadists - this kind of American Taliban activity that takes private religious beliefs out of the home and church, and into the public square with state approval and backing, is dangerous and should be stopped for the benefit of all, but especially for the protection of the innocent children being abused in such homes and churches now. I would not stop at telling these people that they cannot teach MY CHILDREN their pap, I would go a step further and remove THEIR CHILDREN from the abusive and manipulative environment they are suffering in now.
And I do not care who doesn't like that - if I saw a man raping a young boy in the showers, I would not simply "report it", I would stop it. This is no different - the sexual rape of children is horrifying to us all, and the mental rape of them should be no less horrific.
pokerfan
(27,677 posts)And of course we can't teach that Muslim mathematical discipline, what's it called.... oh yeah, Algebra (al-jebr).
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Away with that pagan Muslim and Hindu math!
If we want students to have the authentic flavor of the traditional math from the Holy Land in New Testament times, they need to be taught a hodge-podge of Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Hebrew, and Roman notions and notations!
Then students will more clearly appreciate the significance of early question: Shall I study math today or be thrown to lions in the coliseum?
dimbear
(6,271 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)To them there is only one infinity and that is God.
Basically it's the same mindset that caused the Pythagorean to kill a guy who let out the facts about irrational numbers.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)then they must certainly reject the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. It was not given to us by Gawd at creation, but is an invention of Satan in the guise of those nasty non-Christian eastern people with brown skin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system
Gawd didn't need no stinkin' numerals.
YankeyMCC
(8,401 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)God made the whole numbers; all the rest is the work of Man
Das ist nicht Mathematik. Das ist Theologie.
This isn't mathematics. This is theology
Gordan and Kronecker were nineteenth century constructivists, not particularly sympathetic to mathematical proofs that relied only on logic without being reducible to explicit computation