The dividing line between laity and Church, a Catholic primer...

[Humanist_Activist]

I want to nip one thing in the bud, most Catholics are superior, morally, to the Church they claim, at least in the United States, most are beginning to support Marriage Equality, most have used some form of artificial birth control, and many are pro-choice. Also, most of them don't go to church, at least not often, and of the ones I know personally, mostly family, none give money to the Church.

What I truly hate is this bullshit assertion of "Anti-Catholic bigotry" when ANYTHING the Church does wrong is pointed out. The most fucked up part is, what I usually say on these things is mild compared to my very Catholic mother who gets into really colorful language when talking about the Pope or the local Archbishop. What is she, a self-hating Catholic?

[rug]

1. Are you referring to your comparison of the Patheos Catholic Channel to Stormfront?

[Humanist_Activist]

6. Have you read that fucking channel?

Seriously, I've read many of them, the most popular, and most populous of the bloggers on Patheos Catholic Channel are homophobic, bigoted assholes.

[rug]

9. Of course. I also read Hermant Mehta on Patheos.

I have firm control over both knees.

[cbayer]

2. Except that the attacks here are not limited to the church's hierarchy.

It is frequently targeted at the laity who are routinely accused of being apologists, enablers, etc.

[skepticscott]

3. Do you have a problem with the accusations

or with the fact that they are true?

[Humanist_Activist]

4. Those who knowingly, materially support the church are enablers...

how much of Rug's money was put in to defeat same sex marriage equality in Maine? How much of his money is going to try to defeat it in Washington state right now?

[cbayer]

7. Many may limit their contributions to specific programs within the church,

but that wouldn't be anyone else's business.

Are your hands completely clean? Does our government do some things your strongly disagree with? Do you have any investments in companies who may support causes which you would find repugnant? Do you buy any products that use production methods which are counter to your beliefs?

[Humanist_Activist]

11. Too poor for investments, comparing voluntary contributions to taxation is disingenous...

and causes I support I vet first. What I do buy whose methods run counter to my beliefs are things I can't do without, such as gasoline. I avoid stores that offend my sensibilities(Wal-Mart), and try to support companies that I feel I can with a somewhat clear conscience.

Also, Church is completely optional, hell you can show up and never give them a dime, that I don't care about.

[cbayer]

14. I guess you, like everyone else, could find reasons why the way you spend your money

are ok, but the way others do are not.

Church may be completely optional for you, but not for others. I would be willing to bet there are things you buy that you feel are essential and others would find completely optional.

And how in the world is it anyone else's business?

Don't like the church? Don't support it.

Your mother doesn't like the church. She doesn't have to support it.

Again, your argument is that attacking the church hierarchy should be distinguished from attacking the laypeople, but it sure sounds like you are attacking the lay people.

[Humanist_Activist]

15. It becomes my business when they interfere with the rights of my friends and family...

that should be a no-brainer.

[cbayer]

16. And that's the hierarchy. Rage against them, not the members.

As I heard one of the LCWR nuns say today, it's her church and she's not leaving.

But she going to fight the powers that be every chance she gets.

I'm pretty sure she's not interfering with the rights of your friends and family.

As you so accurately pointed out in your OP, those currently in charge do not represent the position of most of the members.

[Humanist_Activist]

17. Its rather weak opposition when they materially support the hierarchy...

Not to mention the power disparity involved, will that Nun still be able to claim its her church if they excommunicate her?

[cbayer]

21. I guess she can claim it no matter what they do.

That's up to her.

What I object to appears the same as what you object to. Just because the leadership of something you are a member of is doing some reprehensible things does not make you individually responsible for those things.

I was a US citizen during the Bush administration. It was technically optional. I could have moved to another country or refused to pay my portion of taxes going toward an immoral war (something my parents in fact did during the Vietnam War), but I chose to stay and fight from the inside.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. Citizenship is something you are born with, and unless you have the means...

moving to another country is impossible, as far as tax protests, if you are willing to go to jail and don't need to take care of anyone, I guess that's a viable option, if you can call it that.

But really, any comparison between this and voluntary donations to a Church is just inaccurate.

[cbayer]

23. We will just have to disagree, I guess.

I think people's religious choices are complex and personal. I bristle at other people's attempts to control them. Give them information and let them decide.

Despite her anger, your mother still calls herself a Catholic. Whether she attends mass or gives money is not the issue.

I think being connected to the power grid is optional and those that do it contribute to the demise of the planet.

Are you connected to the grid?

[Humanist_Activist]

24. I never said for them to change their beliefs, just don't donate...

the Church has no absolute requirements for salvation related to donations. You can attend and have a blast, just don't give them a dime.

I have absolutely no respect for people who talk about supporting gay rights, then give money to those who actively lobby to oppose them, they are quislings and backstabbers.

[cbayer]

26. I feel the same (well perhaps not as strongly) about those that consume more

power and water than they actually need.

Which is pretty much everyone in this country.

[skepticscott]

27. People's choices about who to marry

Last edited Fri Aug 17, 2012, 05:34 AM - Edit history (1)

are complex and personal, too. And yet people get divorced all the time, from people that at one point they thought they would spend the rest of their lives with. People could separate themselves from the "power grid" of the Catholic church and connect to another one that doesn't fight against equality for all people and that doesn't protect and enable child rapists, if they really wanted to. All it takes is allowing courage and principle to override habit and inertia.

[rug]

10. I put $1.50 in the basket at Mass last night for the Assumption.

You do recall it's a holy day of obligation don't you.

[Humanist_Activist]

12. Shit I forgot, I hope you are proud, I just hope the money you gave them...

wasn't sent to those NOM affiliated groups in Washington state.

[rug]

13. And suppose one cent of that dollar fifty went there?

[Humanist_Activist]

18. If we are to assume any of your donations went towards such activities, well then you don't...

belong on this board, where opposition to same sex marriage is a bannable offence.

[rug]

29. Lol. Do you realize how idiotic your statement is?

Anyone aserting a Catholic throwing a dollar into a church basket is an enabler of homophobia has violated the ToS for bigotry.

[Humanist_Activist]

30. No they aren't, that's just stating a fact, that word you keep using, it doesn't mean what you...

think it means.

[rug]

31. You have the same problem with the word fact.

[Humanist_Activist]

32. Question, if someone donates, either directly or indirectly, to the National Organization for....

Marriage, are they supporting homophobia?

[rug]

33. Are these people homophobes?

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/vatican-attacks-us-nuns-for-fighting-poverty-instead-of-gay-marriage/politics/2012/04/19/38255

They've donated not simply money but their lives to the RCC.

[Humanist_Activist]

34. They could be supporting homophobia indirectly, as far as their personal homophobia, I don't know...

is there an interview with some of them about same sex marriage or gay rights?


ON EDIT: Oh, and you didn't answer the question.

[rug]

35. "They could be supporting homophobia indirectly"

Oh, I don't answer stupid questions.

[Humanist_Activist]

37. I'm so glad you make light of what your Church is doing.

So glad it amuses you. Why are you on this board again?

[rug]

39. I take everything it does seriously.

Seriously enough to rebut cartoonn posts about what it dies right and what it does wrong.

Why are you here again?

[tama]

40. By analogy

those who knowingly, materially support the US gov are enablers, and hence war criminals and torturers by guilt of association. How much of your tax money and other material - and emotional/psychological/spiritual support for US state is going to wars, murdering, torture and many other evils?

State as religion or substitute for can be just as bad and even worse than worst religions.

[ButterflyBlood]

41. Taxation is not voluntary

Giving money to a church is. It's like arguing that it's OK for someone to voluntarily invest with the mob because that's not any different from people who are extorted by them.

[tama]

42. Passive resistance

Don't make any money nor own anything, so can't be taxed by the the State mob...

More seriously, those who preach for freedom from religions and against state religions should preach also freedom from states as religions - 'religion' at least in the sense of social group identity, some shared ideology and hierarchic power structure. Or at least for state free zones.

[Marrah_G]

5. I come from an Irish Catholic family

I have no problem saying out loud that I would like to see the vatican burnt to the ground and all the people there dropped onto their own deserted island where they can't continue to harm others.

"the church" has massive amounts of blood and pain on its hands and it is not sorry about it one bit.

[Humanist_Activist]

8. My mom wants them to raid the Vatican and capture Cardinal Law, with military force...

even I said that was slightly extreme. But she really HATES the way the church has handled the abuse scandal.

[Marrah_G]

19. I despise cardinal law...

are you from MA?

I think he should be in jail here and not in a place of high honor as an arch bishop of rome.

fuck the pope, the vatican and every single person there that helps run that corrupt business built on the blood of innocent people.

[Humanist_Activist]

20. No, St. Louis, MO, we had our own problems with Archbishops. n/t

[dimbear]

25. Do American Catholics ever wonder why the RCC doesn't care what they want?

It seems like a natural question. Does it even cross their minds?

[Dawson Leery]

28. .........

[Starry Messenger]

36. My mother, a life-long Catholic, left the Church over Maine's recent anti-marriage equality law

and the Church's role in helping there. My whole family are devout Irish Catholic. (I was too until the age of 19.) My mother was sickened finally by focus on bigotry being funded in lieu of greater help for the poor and homeless. She switched her charitable giving to more direct funding for anti-poverty organizations that are not connected to the Church. She is also very "colorful" in describing her feelings on this.

[ButterflyBlood]

38. I'm not fond of describing such people as "Catholic", it's even a little offensive...

the offensive part is that you're basically defining "Catholic" as "anyone raised Catholic" which means someone who has actively disaffiliated from the church (as I have) would also be "Catholic". That's also why I HATE the term "lapsed Catholic". If you don't attend Mass or have anything to do with the church now, you're not a Catholic, just as you can't be a Democrat if you never vote even if you registered a long time ago. You're also not a Democrat if you registered as one a long time ago but still vote but vote mostly for Republicans. FWIW I actually have gotten into a different church so to basically say "Well that doesn't matter you're still Catholic" is pretty disgusting.