A Hypotheical Situation

[Quartermass]

Let's say the find Christ's remains and are able to identify it as his body without any sort of doubt what so ever.

How would it affect people's faith?

I think for the most part, most people would lose their faith because one of the biggest tenets of Christianity is his resurrection. This would mean that he wasn't resurrected, which would invalidate the faith.

But I'm also sure that there would be some never say die believers would try to twist it somehow or just deny it completely.

What do you think would happen if Christ's body was found and identified without any kind of doubt what so ever?

[Angry Dragon]

1. I think it would lead to holy wars

[Starboard Tack]

2. It would prove the man existed in a historical context.

Though, I think there are few who doubt that. In terms of the resurrection, I think few Christians take it literally, as in his body ascending. I know I didn't when I considered myself a Christian. The resurrection is about the ascension of the spirit. Kind of Buddhist, in a way. All the miraculous stuff is allegorical myth, just as it was with the Greeks, centuries before. I never met a Christian who subscribed to all that until I met some born again fundies here in the US. Funny how some atheists take the most absurd stuff from the bible and literalize it in the same way as fundamentalists. Both seem to miss the whole point.

[ZombieHorde]

3. In 2007, 43% of Americans in the US were creationists.

Last edited Fri Jan 6, 2012, 10:37 PM - Edit history (2)

According to a 2007 Gallup poll, about 43% of American believe that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." This is only slightly less than the 46% reported in a 2006 Gallup poll. Only 14% believed that "humans being have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process", despite 49% of respondents indicating they believed in evolution. Belief in creationism is inversely correlated to education; only 22% of those with post-graduate degrees believe in strict creationism. A 2000 poll for People for the American Way found 70% of the American public felt that evolution was compatible with a belief in God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution#United_States

In 2007, the percent of people in the US that were Christian was 78%.

So a little over half of the Christians in US in 2007 were creationists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country#Religions_by_country_as_of_2007_.28T-Z.29

Atheists are not literalizing the Christian Holy Bible, they're describing other people's literalizing of it.

"Both seem to miss the whole point."

To say you know the authors' intent better than the fundamentalists seems baseless to me.

[Starboard Tack]

5. I was talking about Christians as a whole, not fundamentalists.

First, the fundamentalists have no more to do with Christianity, than Hitler had to do with socialism. Calling oneself a Christian, co-opting the name, has nothing to do with Christianity. Born again evangelicals are the biggest bunch of delusional bigots this country has thrust upon the world. Doesn't make them Christian. They don't even consider Catholics or Mormons Christian.
The numbers you quote illustrate widespread ignorance and a poor educational system in this country. Those of us who grew up in more moderate societies were not subjected to the right wing, intolerant flavor of religion that permeates the airwaves in this country.
It is understandable that there has been a harsh reaction to this ignorance, but we should not let extremism on one side lead us to extremism on the other. They are doing a fine job of tripping themselves up. They don't need our help. I'm not afraid of them. Common sense will ultimately prevail.

[ZombieHorde]

7. I agree with you the main problem is education, but they are the majority of American Christians,

and therefor, they are not the extremists. Atheists are not pointing to a small group of ignorant Christians and claiming they represent the majority, atheists are talking about the majority.

"Born again evangelicals are the biggest bunch of delusional bigots this country has thrust upon the world. Doesn't make them Christian. They don't even consider Catholics or Mormons Christian."

I thought you were against this type of language toward religious people. I guess I really didn't really understand your "militant atheist" comments.

[Thats my opinion]

8. Why can't you all just leave the fundamentalists alone.

They don't post here. Maybe they are just an easy target.
Wouldn't it be more authentic to converse with the religionists who do post here, and stop nailing to the wall those who don't.

[ZombieHorde]

10. We're venting.

Many fundamentalist Christians really hate atheists, and they can be very open about it. They attack us and our loved ones in real life, so we get pissed off, and come here to blow off steam. The two main ways we like to blow off steam is to discuss their logic, and to make jokes.

Atheists are bound together by other people's hate for us.

[Thats my opinion]

18. But they don't show up here.

So your venting misses the mark for everyone. Those of us who gets hit in the flow of the vents are on your side!!.

Why not just respond to those who show up?

[ZombieHorde]

23. When my wife has a hard time at work, she tells me about it.

"Mr. X is such an asshole!" She can't always vent at work.

"Those of us who gets hit in the flow of the vents are on your side!!

True.

I read and post in the Feminist forum often, and some of the posts seem to attack my gender, but I know they don't mean me. Fact it, many men treat women extremely poorly, and men have the social/cultural advantage. Even on DU, sexist comments are allowed in the Sports Forum. I think atheist/theist conflict is similar.

I don't know what the solution is.

[cleanhippie]

24. TMO, do you believe that Jesus was killed, rose from the dead, and then ascended to heaven?

[tama]

19. That is understandable

and common psychological pattern, when hurt we easily slash out in anger in every direction. But when we do that and hurt others, who then do the same, we create a vicious cycle of revenge.

We have also capability to become conscious of this pattern and stop repeating it.

[Starboard Tack]

12. Even if they are the majority in the US they are still extremists IMO

I am against anyone who embraces racism, sexism, homophobia, or displays intolerance toward people of faith because of their faith. I have no love of religion or religious institutions, but there are good people who find fulfillment in religion.

[cleanhippie]

25. Is the belief that jesus was killed, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven at the core

of christianity?

[Starboard Tack]

27. Yes! Each individual Christian decides if it is metaphor or fact.

That's what I learned in confirmation classes. Obviously, nobody with any education would take it as fact.

[laconicsax]

13. You might want to edit your subject line so it matches the message text. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

16. Done. Thanks. nt

[Goblinmonger]

6. I have serious doubts about a historic Jesus

There is nothing, short of the Bible, that accounts for him having actually existed. Well, there's Josephus, but that's pretty much been debunked.

[Thats my opinion]

9. How has Josephus --or Tacitus been debunked?

But the main evidence is the earliest history of the followers of Jesus, and the multitude of stories that quickly arose.

[dmallind]

17. Really? Josephus?

The fact that early commentators (and church fathers) who wrote voluminously on Josephus never mentioned this strange passage that directly referred to the man-God they adored for about 250 years after it was written is pretty strong evidence it wasn't originally there. That and the fact that the language is uncharacteristic of Josephus and strangely redolent of the Lukan kerygma.

Tacitus, written decades after the first gospels and with no copy showing this inclusion for over 900 years, refers to Christianity and the purported origins of the faith. It is far from a contemporary account and far more concerned with the believers than the object of belief. Furthermore, since it could get the title of a long term high official of the Empire wrong you trust it to correctly identify the source of a despised sect? Sure it's conceivably there in Tacitus' original, but it's no more corroboration of facts about Jesus 80 years prior to its writing than any commentator on early Christianity is.

Nobody doubts Christians existed in the second century, or what they claimed as the origin of their religion.

[rug]

4. Corinthians 15:13-19

13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, then empty is our preaching; empty, too, your faith.
15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised,
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

[Leontius]

11. Thanks for posting that an author I read suggested that Paul did not

believe in a bodily resurrection and would find the idea silly and that it was not longstanding teaching of the Church but a more recent concept of modern evangelicals.

[ZombieHorde]

14. How do you interpret that passage? nt

[rug]

15. If there was no Resurrection there is no Christianity.

It is that event which makes this ethos a religion.

[tama]

20. What's your take on Gnosticism?

http://cryskernan.tripod.com/gnostic_jesus.htm

[rug]

21. I'm suspicious of movements based on secret knowledge.

The message of the Incarnarion, Crucifixion and Ressurection is pretty simple and straightforward: the direct love of God for each and every person. To add to it additional knowledge held by a select few is inconsistent with that. And the separation of Jesus from Christ would make the Passion and Crucifixion of Jesus a surrogate act for God, not Man. So, I don't think too much of it.

[tama]

22. "The only secret is

that there is no secret" - to my understanding Gnosis does not mean exactly "secret" knowledge, but ineffable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineffability).

[rug]

26. I'll look into it more.