I Really Hope You Accept The Beauty Of The Christian Message Someday.

[cleanhippie]

[rug]

1. Where did you get that cartoon

version of Christianity?

No wonder you're an atheist.

[longship]

2. If you don't believe that cartoon you are so going to Hell!

My pastor told me to tell you that.

[rug]

5. If the pastor believes that he probably believes Hell is in Bakersfield.

[longship]

8. Let me tell you, Hell IS in Bakerfield.

Just couldn't resist.

Some would say it's Detroit. But that's my home town. So...

Okay, okay. Hell is Bakersfield and Detroit is Hell.

Soright?

[Phillip McCleod]

27. Tulsa OK?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. I've been to Tulsa....gak.

Only redeeming thing I've seen is the Philbrook Art Museum. Oil money used to buy good art. And the museum is the mansion the Phillips family used to live in.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

74. Obviously you have not been to Hoboken, New Jersey

[longship]

75. ROFL! Touché.

I would nominate Needles, CA, but it would probably fall on deaf eyes, so to speak.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

116. Do you know about the three layers of a black hole?

Limbo, Escrow, and Fresno.

I've been to Fresno. Gak. I assume it's as bad as Bakersfield from what you said.

[cleanhippie]

4. From the Christians that knock on my door, for starters.

Maybe if they would keep their beliefs to themselves...

[rug]

6. I am proud to say that the last time the Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door,

they ended the visit by saying, "We have to go now."

[patrice]

10. .

[cleanhippie]

11. Oh, I have no problem with the JW's, it's the other christians giving your religion the bad name.

The JW's stopped coming by after I asked to be put on their do-not-knock list. They have respected my privacy for a few years now.

But the rest of them, the christians that knock on my door, ask me if I know jesus, try to give me tracts, invite me to their church, then look down their nose at me and call me names for politely explaining that I do not subscribe to their belief system. Ghandi would be proud at the restraint I've shown.

Yeah, where could I have gotten this idea about Christianity? Perhaps instead of admonishing me for pushing back against the nonsense, you could redirect that energy toward those who are painting your religion in a light you don't care for. Come talk to me when that's done.

[rug]

13. Frankly, I have yet to be cowed by pushy Christians.

Tell me, assuming your description is accurate, is there any other area of your life where you find it difficult to say "Fuck off"?

[Phillip McCleod]

28. that would be rude.

at least in person. at least to people not like cheney or boehner. it seems much easier online where the physical element is removed.

[rug]

39. Well, simply expressing that rudeness online to perfect strangers hardly seems an improvement

[Phillip McCleod]

96. i concur. but it is *easier* so more likely to happen anyway

[cleanhippie]

41. Sure, right now.

[MrModerate]

105. Where do you live?

I've lived all over the world (and all over the States), and the JWs are the only proselytizers who've ever come to my door.

[madrchsod]

17. i told them my ideas of christ`s message is different than thiers

they politely said thank you and walked away...

[gateley]

51. That's good -- and pretty much how I feel.

[hrmjustin]

21. We Episcopalians do not go door to door.

[Phillip McCleod]

29. might explain something about your dwindling numbers.

mcdonalds discovered they lost millions by not advertising for just a few hours. consumptive growth is an unending treadmill spinning p.r. into the mentalverse. if your not on it your just another non-celebrity.

congratulations on your faiths accomplishment.

oops: on 2nd reading that sounds dismissive. actually i mean it. congrats. in this tabloid age just *not* getting on the treadmill of lies requires effort.

[larwdem]

101. is it true

mc d's advertising

i have a business

[Schema Thing]

102. It might. But I can tell you both from experience and data that Jehovah's Witness door-to-door

work is just "busy work" that keeps them occupied and obedient (or more likely, feeling guilty for not liking it and not doing it as much as they are supposed to and therefor not as obedient as they've been conditioned to believe they should be). They record literally millions of hours in the door-to-door work per convert.

And that fairly rare convert? He or she almost never comes from the door to door work.

[earthside]

7. 'Original sin.'

It is standard doctrine in virtually all Christian denominations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

[rug]

9. I'm familiar with it and it doesn't say a thing about filthy disgusting worms.

It describes pride and concupiscence which, looking around, pretty well sums it up.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

24. It says you are sinful and flawed from birth. God is a crooked prosecutor

You are hit with a criminal charge for an offense you didn't commit. You just were born, that's all.

Due to a couple of fruit munching naked idiots in a fairy tale.


Creates an imaginary problem which has an unnecessary solution:Substitutionary atonement.


Absolutely, it's emotional abuse and destroys millions of childrens' and adults' self-esteem. And it's unnecessary. It's NOT reality.


Read John Bradshaw, Ph.D.'s "Healing the Shame that Binds You" for further information. He's an ex-Priest.


It takes a lot of strength to get up and walk out of a church with a preacher, who knows nothing about you, spewing hatred of you and condemning you to eternal damnation, just because you're a human.


One of the most ridiculous and harmful ideas ever accepted by the human race.

[kestrel91316]

31. While I don't froth at the mouth over it like you,

I consider that the primary reason I am not a member of any church.

God supposedly made us, and God is perfect. But God made us imperfect, and then punishes us eternally for being imperfect.

The logic there escapes me. It's mean. I don't believe in mean deities. If somebody can show me one that isn't crazy-mean, I'll consider it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

33. There are several kind ones in Hinduism.

And in Buddhism, which has no dieties unless you want to believe in them, has some that are all goodness, like Kwan Yin, the Goddess of Mercy, and the Taras.

The historical Buddha himself is NOT worshiped as a God. Christians don't understand the concept of a philosophy that is based on the sayings of a real person that actually lived, who is not a god.

It's perfectly fine to be an atheist and a Buddhist. Prince Siddhartha, Gautama the Buddha, basically kept the concepts of dharma, karma and reincarnation and threw out the dieties from Hinduism, so his is a distilled version.

Hindus have kind dieties and wrathful dieties. Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer are the main ones.

There are many others: Ganesh, the remover of obstacles, Hanuman the perfect devoted servant; Lakshmi, goddess of wealth; Saraswati, goddess of learning and music(holding a sitar) and Kali Durga, goddess of kicking ass and taking names. Metes out divine revenge.

You can have your favorite diety, called an Ishta Devata, much like Catholics have a patron saint.

I find the Asian religions much more interesting than the Abrahamic ones. I think of the Hindu dieties as archetypes representing specific qualities in people.

There are many good books by native English speakers now on Buddhism.

I "froth at the mouth" because I had to get up and walk out of church and leave Christianity completely. Every time I heard one of those sermons about how we are all filthy sinners, I just wanted to crawl in a hole and die. My first mistake was taking the hateful controlling bastards clothed in righteousness and having the title of "Reverend" seriously.

They stood around and congratulated themselves on their fine, uplifting sermons, while I was feeling like my soul was being destroyed by their lecturing. It was a stark choice: Get the hell out or go crazy. I decided that if Christians were helping god do his work on earth, then god didn't give a shit whether I starved to death or not. I don't mean charity or free handouts, either.

I don't let anyone else's uninformed opinion control my opinion of myself anymore. Yet most people let a minister define and defile them on Sundays, and they never think to ask questions or leave. You're right; there's no logical or consistent morality in the Bible. It's a huge mess put together and edited under the orders of the Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicaea.

[rug]

38. Let's take a look at that.

Can you honestly say you have never chosen to do harm? That you have never chosen to do what you want regardless of the consequences to others? You can't put that on a god. You are no more and no less than Adam or Eve. Now multiply that by billions and you'll get a sense of what the consequeces of original sin are. That's the doctrine, essentially, stripped of the melodrama people like to put on it.

[white_wolf]

100. Original Sin claims that even babies are tainted.

A new born child has never chosen to do harm, lie, steal, or commit any wrong act and yet according to the doctrine of original sin they are as damned as Charles Manson.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

77. No, that is not what original sin is

Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologica, I-II, question 82 says that original sin is a tendency towards evil. Do you deny that such a tendency exists in people?

[tama]

91. I did not see

such definition in the text of your link.

[Phillip McCleod]

30. no but it does say we are flawed at birth.

it makes an unjustified assumption that behavior is entirely congenital which isn't borne out by research. sure nature has a lot to do with who we become but its not the whole story. nurture counts too. the story of eve and adam does seem to dismiss that possibility altogether.

[rug]

37. And so we are.

The classic iteration of the doctrine is that human nature after the Fall is not how human nature was made. Nor is the world.

[tama]

53. All of us?

How about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people

Still in Eden?

[rug]

54. Some are better than others but none are perfect.

[tama]

55. IF

you compare. If you stop comparing...?

[rug]

58. That's interesting, sort of like the question that was put to Eve.

[tama]

61. In other words

as long as you keep measuring your distance to God, won't there be some, however close you get?

[rug]

64. Exactly.

That's why the goal of religion is generally described as reaching some version of the presence of God.

It is possible to seek God without comparing or measuring.

[tama]

67. Planck scale

I find it interesting that what in science is considered limit of measurement does not limit imagining structures beyond the limit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_scale

[SarahM32]

89. The concept of "original sin" is flawed and not consistent with Genesis.

That's what the author of Real Prophecy Unveiled and other books containing the message that is now published by the AFCPF here submits.

In more than one article on that site, it suggests that the "fall of Adam and Eve" was not about sex, not about "eating an apple," and not about any physical act. The disobedience was mental, and it was about the separate-self human ego indulging in "the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

It was about ignoring and disobeying God and acting AS a god, acting as if one was a wise judge of what is good and what is evil -- or what is "right" and what is wrong. It was about being self-righteous and judgmental, which is why Jesus of Nazareth said: "Judge not, lest you be judged."

I like that interpretation, because to me it makes sense. It exposes the myth about a woman's "curse" (menstruation) being a punishment from God, and the myth about the "original sin" as Christians perceive it.

Egotism is the original sin, and the ongoing sin, which is caused by egocentric delusion and the illusion of duality that enables people to indulge in the perception of their superiority and the inferiority of the other, which is why Jesus said: "When your eye is single your body shall be full of Light, and you shall see the kingdom of heaven that comes not with observation in the world, but from within."

It all makes sense when you know what it means.
.

[tama]

90. Very good point

I'm also aware that gnostics - who existed also in prechristian times - had very different version and interpretation of the genesis story, snake etc., than that of Bible.

There is a a Finnish cartoon Moomin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin) which has been animated by Japanese and maybe familiar also to some Americans. There is also a book written about philosophy of Moomin books, which contained simple but IMHO very deep view of the Fall, or "original error" (I prefer translating Greek 'hamartia' in the original meaning 'error' to avoid the judgemental connotation of 'sin'):

Out of love and empathy we become attached to objects of love, and attached love leads to fear of losing loved one, worry over the loved one and need to control. This view is just observational causal theory, not judgmental norm, as even knowing the turmoil of "heaven and hell" of e.g. strongly attached sexual love from earlier experience, we often seek and choose it also consciously over non-attached loving kindness and calmness.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

118. Then God should have made Adam and Eve incurious.

He messed up if he wanted obedient, stupid humans.

Stupid, incurious sheep is what he wanted. God messes up a lot; he has to slaughter all life on earth and start over.

[SarahM32]

119. I have a different concept of "Creation."

God is not a person or a Superman Magician in the sky who waves a magic wand to make everything happen and manifest all things. That's an erroneous concept.

I see evolution as God's method of Creation, and I see the creation story in the book of Genesis as an allegory that expresses much wisdom even as it expresses antiquated, dated concepts and ideas.

I am a Deist who recognizes the universal truths within all religions, but also recognizes that religions were the creation of Man, not God. I perceive God as the Divine Light-Energy-Source of our existence and the Essence of all life and form. And I believe God's Universal Cosmic Consciousness regards Man's religions as potentially divisive and conflicting, as they certainly have become (even though they could serve to produce unity and harmony if they served their true purpose).

God cannot "mess up," but Egocentric Man certainly has messed up. He just needs to realize it, and make amends. And I believe we will.
.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

120. First you say original sin is "not consistent

with Genesis", then you say you're a deist.

[cleanhippie]

57. We are flawed at birth? By what measure?

[rug]

60. By the capacity to hurt one another.

[cleanhippie]

63. That's a flaw? Again, by what measure?

[rug]

65. Tell me under what circumstance it is desirable to hurt one another.

[cleanhippie]

70. I'm not sure it is ever, but you claimed it was a flaw. So I ask, by what measure?

[rug]

80. That is a principal measure. You don't consider causing conscious harm to be a flaw?

[cleanhippie]

81. Kindly refrain from answering the question with a question, and just answer plainly.

You stated that we are flawed at birth. By what measure do YOU make that claim?

[rug]

83. I did answer it. You simply don't like the answer.

Refute it if you can.

[cleanhippie]

85. Bullshit needs no refutation.

[rug]

87. Oh, that's persuasive!

[cleanhippie]

92. More persuasive than the bullshit you provided.

And to think, we were making such progress.

[rug]

95. I can't possibly refute that.

I can't find my mop.

[earthside]

76. Those babies are going to hell ...

... unless they've been 'baptized' or unless they have 'accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.'

That's the other big problem with 'original sin' -- by the orthodox Christian measure it is a sentence to eternal damnation.

I'm failing to see the beautiful message in Christianity.

[rug]

79. No but they're sure to live in a world where worse things happen than fighting over toys.

[cleanhippie]

82. You claimed we are flawed at birth. That we are inherently flawed from the start. By what measure?

[rug]

84. Kindly refrain from asking the same question in two different places.

See 83.

[cleanhippie]

86. Kindly refrain from giving bullshit questions as answers.

[rug]

88. Kindly refrain from asking bullshit questions.

Particularly when you don't like the answers.

[cleanhippie]

93. Is it bullshit to ask by what measure you use to say we are flawed from birth?

Perhaps a mirror is where you should be looking for the source of the bullshit.

[rug]

94. Yes, when you ask it twice.

[cleanhippie]

98. Were done.

I've tried. I've really tried with you, but at nearly every turn, you offer nothing but obfuscation and intentional frustration. To what end, rug? Why? Don't answer that. I just don't care.

[hrmjustin]

3. There is a beauty to the Christian message.

The shame is that many right wing Christians turn people off to the religion.

[Freddie]

12. Indeed there is

It's the Fundies who have it wrong

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. How do you know they're wrong?

Who gets to decide?

[tama]

46. Who else?

[patrice]

15. +++1 It's a little limited, but this is an analogy I used a bit ago: Just because a whole bunch of

people are saying 2 + 2 = 100, that doesn't mean that 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4.

Christianity has the same sort of problem, but in different terms.

I think one of the biggest errors we make is that, if you look at the life of Lord Jesus, Christianity is a very physical thing because it has to do with BEHAVIOR, i.e. what people are DOING. Behavior has effects upon everyone and everything, the entire world; that's why we say Jesus is lord of all, but his message was himself, what he did, how he did what he did, not all of these words that everyone has been grinding out about all of that for so long.

There's a beautiful concrete simplicity in it. That's also very exciting, because of where it could lead us. Just the doing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. What about the many hateful things Jesus allegedly said?

"I come not in peace but with a sword...I come to set families apart" etc.

Cussing out a fig tree for not blooming and fruiting in the winter.

Condemning people to hell for not liking his preaching.

There are hundreds of examples of Jesus' own words from the NT that are cruel and hateful.

I learned this in religion courses at a Christian university taught by Christian professors, by the way.

Jesus didn't exist historically anyway. There is no proof. He's just like Osiris, Mithra, Apollo, and many other ancient gods, all born on December 25th of a virgin and workers of miracles. There is nothing original in Christianity. It's a synthesis of pagan mystery cults.

[Phillip McCleod]

97. thank you. esp. that last bit about 'synthesis'

its part of the issue since not only does finding a lovable god in the bible take considerable cherry picking it also takes cherry picking from history and distortion to justify the assumed historicity of key events in the bible. like the existence of jesus christ. it's not that different from what david barton does.

[deutsey]

18. I saw this today...it reinforces what you say here

[rexcat]

22. I would disagree with you on this...

It is just not the right wing christians that turn people off to the religion. It is the message no matter who says it, right wing, left wing or middle wing!

[hrmjustin]

23. Well some people just find it odd or just not believable.

My father who is not a believer asks me all the time why didn't God just give us a boil on our ass for our sins instead of sacrificing his son. I still have no good comeback for him.
It is not a logical religion but I still believe it.

[rexcat]

121. So you believe in something...

that you admit to being illogical. Okay!

As far as your father's comment I doubt you will ever find a good comeback but that is my basis.

[hrmjustin]

122. Christianity has never been logical, but as i said i still believe in it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

34. Starting premise of ALL xtianity is original sin; therefore harmful.

We all make mistakes and do things that are wrong. Some people figure this out and some don't, and some don't care. Sensitive people certainly don't need the unearned guilt and shame that original sin puts on all people as a heavy burden.

God is a prison guard that watches you all the time and records your every sinful thought or imagined sinful action.

George Orwell called it "thoughtcrime". Thinking the wrong thoughts, but not actually doing anything wrong. The law doesn't recognize thinking without action as a criminal offense. And yes, I am a lawyer.

What's beautiful about "You have free will, you can worship me or not as you choose, but if you don't, I will fry you in hell for all eternity"??

Besides, if I don't have a body in Hell, I'm just a soul, how can you torture me? I don't have a brain or a nervous system.

And how can a finite human be tortured infinitely?

What's beautiful about those principles? No thanks.

[Thats my opinion]

73. Where did you learn abcout Christianity?

If your have ever taken any class in Christianity, you should ask your teacher for your money back. If I thought that what you presented is what Christianity is all about, I wouldn’t want anything to have anything to do with it either.

Pickup any scholarly book written in recent history and you will find that the doctrine of original sin is not even around, let alone the starting premise of all Christianity.

The rest of the post may be about something, but it is not about anything remotely Christian. If you are going to talk about something, it might be a help to have a remote grip on the subject.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

99. "doctrine of original sin is not Around"? What does that mean?

OS wasn't part of the original doctrine but it is now.

I don't know of any Christian group that does not have as its starting premise OS, and thus the need for substitutionary atonement.

The Universalists, now part of the UU church, believed in universal salvation, but that still implies that you have the doctrine of original sin. If you did not have the doctrine of original sin, you would have no need of salvation and substitutionary atonement.

[Phillip McCleod]

103. true the xtian concept of salvation rests of original sin

other religions when they have an idea of salvation at all (nirvana anyone?) it rests on other concepts (suffering anyone?). the two ideas are sides of a coin in abrahamic religions though.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

107. Would somebody answer my question?

Nirvana is not salvation, and there is no savior or substitutionary atonement. According to Hinduism and Buddhism, you are supposed to live a moral life, and there are no contradictions in the morality, unlike the many contradictions in the incoherent bible.

I took religion courses at a very highly rated Presbyterian college. My religion professors had doctorates from Princeton University (Presbyterian) and Harvard Divinity School. That good enough?

This was not some unaccredited snake-handling holy roller Bible thumper college.

[tama]

108. Nirvana

"The word literally means "blown out" (as in a candle) and refers, in the Buddhist context, to the imperturbable stillness of mind after the fires of desire, aversion, and delusion have been finally extinguished."

More simply, liberation from attachment and the ignorance caused by it. And you would have no problem of finding Christian scholars who would agree that that is what also original sin and Christian salvation mean, or scholars that agree only partially or fully disagree.

[Phillip McCleod]

109. ok but i could do without the appeal to authority

[Manifestor_of_Light]

115. The person asked where I learned about Christianity,

and I answered them. They were assuming i got no education in religion.

I did not go to some unaccredited bible thumper college. They would not teach textual analysis at some unaccredited bible thumper college. They would be force-feeding their doctrine.

I don't think the half-assed preachers who are unaffiliated with any denomination could even PASS any of the religion courses I took, or any of the religion courses offered at my college. At the time every undergraduate had to take two religion courses and there were many choices.

We learned about textual analysis with computers, which was just starting in the 1970s, the J,E,D and P sources. Chapters written by different people but stuck together as if by the same author. First Isaiah and Second Isaiah are written by 2 different people.

Stuff like that.

[Thats my opinion]

110. The substitutionary theory of the atonement was introduced by a guy named Anselm in the 11th century

It is still popular with fundamentalists, but hardly with any modern main line or liberal Christians.
Why don't you try reading what most modern Christians are saying? It just may beat unadorned prejudice.

[Goblinmonger]

114. "Unadorned prejudice"

Wow. You have read the Nicene Creed, right? Do you not realize that is the basis for all modern Christianity? How do you deal with this line, then:

Who for us humanity and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate, was made human, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.
By whom He took body, soul, and mind, and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.
He suffered, was crucified, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven with the same body, [and] sat at the right hand of the Father.

I'm sure bringing up something pesky like the Nicene Creed is just more "unadorned prejudice."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

117. The Christians here keep denying the cruel & punitive doctrines of their religion.

They say they are all about sweetness and light. When you put the words of THEIR bible in front of them, they deny it and reject it.

Questionable mental gymnastics.

[dimbear]

16. Without certain magical rites, baptism etc. you are eternally irrevocably scroomed.

That's the takeaway.

Beautiful indeed.

[Thats my opinion]

111. Try having an honest look at what modern Christians are saying.

But then that may disturb your prejudices.

[dimbear]

112. I try to keep up.

I'm surprised a little that that doesn't show.

[kestrel91316]

19. I never believed in that part.

The part I believe in goes sort of like this:

Love thy neighbor.
Turn the other cheek.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man or woman to get into heaven.
Go in your closet and pray privately.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
etc.

Fundies say people like me will burn in hell. Mainstream nonfundie christians shrug their shoulders and mostly agree with my viewpoint.

I think Jesus, or whoever the Jesus of the bible was modeled on, was a great teacher. And I don't need to believe in God to believe that these words are true.

[Demo_Chris]

20. Pretty accurate actually

All men, according to Christianity, are incapable of living a life worthy of anything less than damnation. They are incapable of being worthy on their own, all are corrupt and disgusting in the eyes of their loving father.

It is ONLY through the sacrifice of Jesus that man can be redeemed, and even then this is not enough, man must accept this sacrificial offering in order for the magic to apply.

It's goofy as hell, but no more goofy than chucking virgins into volcanoes or burning witches.

[Angry Dragon]

71. That is why it is good to be a Dragon

[another_liberal]

26. Put a twenty . . .

Put a twenty in the collection plate too.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. "God ALWAYS needs money!" -- George Carlin

He's really bad with money.

[another_liberal]

40. True that!

And "the Lord" doesn't delegate authority very damn well either.

[tama]

36. Cartoonish exaggeration

of something that is common to all missionary religions, from Christian "original sin" to First Nobel Truth of Buddhism - idea and message that there is something missing, life is incomplete, not fully happy; there is a need and the message of the missionary religion is answer to that need.

Oldest marketing trick is creation of need, and the missionary strategy both speaks to our genuine needs and creates them so that the whole bundle becomes inseparable. "Bipolar" mood swings seems to universal phenomenon, we all have crappier and happier days when we compare days, and many of us feel genuine need or curiosity for deeper meanings and experiences and/of peace of mind. So when a missionary asks, are you 100% happy and content, very few of us can honestly answer yes. And no doubt the various missionary traditions in many cases deliver what they promise and benefit our lives. And in other cases prove to be various disappointments.

But what ever psychological and spiritual need missionary religions may create, and what ethical answers they offer, this pales in comparison to purely commercial advertising to create consumer needs. If we want to develop sustainable ways of life and cut down consumption to be able to live within means, we simply can't afford artificial creation of consumerist materialistic needs. How does that weigh against abuse of freedom of expression by commercial advertising?

PS: see also http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525089

[cleanhippie]

42. No, it's not cartoonish.

It's a cartoon. No -ish about it.



Dude, not everything is some philosophical dichotomy. You can just accept things for what they are. Relax, you'll live longer.

[tama]

44. On the contrary

the conclusion of rational inquiry is that every thing is a philosophical dichotomy, and rational mind likes to think rationally. Accepting that thing-objects are empty of intrinsic properties can be quite relaxing.

[cleanhippie]

47. Have you ever been told you can be difficult to talk to?

[tama]

48. Don't worry

I know I'm easier to talk with than to talk to.

[cleanhippie]

49. By think, do you mean the rational attempt to quantify

The quantum necessity of thought or the inclusion of primordial processes to arrive at the philosophical conundrum of relativity?

[tama]

50. Just this babble in the head

but since you mention quantum necessity, I found this Feynman quote about Schrödinger equation fascinating:

Where did we get that (equation) from? Nowhere. It is not possible to derive it from anything you know. It came out of the mind of Schrödinger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation

[cleanhippie]

56. *

[tama]

59. What I see

is gesture of self-blinding. What I imagine is feeling of frustration.

[cleanhippie]

62. *

[tama]

106. *

[mr blur]

66. Do you get this drivel from a book or do you just make it up?

[tama]

68. Do you really want to know? nt

[DryRain]

69. Not even Sarah Palin's books have this much

word salad in them.

[tama]

72. Tibetan Buddhists like big hats

There is currently big discussion between scientists and Buddhist thought going on (link on this forum), just finished watching day two, and at the end of discussion Tibetans suggested that also quantum physicists should be given a honorary big hat with lots of holes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. I've NEVER seen a Buddhist, a Hindu, or a Jew proselytizing.

Where'd you get this idea that Buddhism is a "Missionary religion"? You don't need to worship Buddha. In fact, I had a Buddhist nun tell me she used to pray to Buddha and it was WRONG.

He is NOT a God or a savior. There is no original sin or substitutionary atonement. He explained a philosophy of looking at the world and explained the causes of suffering. And offered the Eightfold Path as a guide to behavior.

Only ones i know about are Christianity and Islam.

Both extremely violent and inconsistent. I already said that Christianity creates an artificial crisis, original sin, and is ready with an unnecessary solution, substitutionary atonement.

[tama]

45. I meant no negative connotation with "missionary"

or need to worship Buddha. Just the quite obvious fact that Dharma is being actively spread and taught around the world.

And certainly, First Noble Truth does not need to be blindly accepted but can and should be taken as hypothesis for philosophical discussion, but Fourth Noble Truth is really needed only if First Noble Truth is considered true, either in given situation or as universal truth.

Suppose there are some sentient beings, e.g. a tribe of humans living free of dukkha? Would they need Dharma, and would they invalidate First Noble Truth as universal truth and make it situational truth?

[gateley]

52. Haha! It's really sad how most organized religions (greedy men) have distorted the messages of

peace and love great teachers tried to share with us.

[wandy]

78. And you wonder why their are Agnostics.......

Given enough time, one may find the Creator in their own way.
Raised as a catholic one may tire of the sniveling, hurtful things people do in the name of their god.

In the morning, here it comes
I taste the warning and I am so amazed
I'm here today, seeing things so clear this way
In the car and on my way
To Stonehenge.

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral
Sunlight pouring through the break of day.
Stumbled through the door and into the chamber;
There's a lady setting flowers on a table covered lace
And a cleaner in the distance finds a cobweb on a face
And a feeling deep inside of me tells me
This can't be the place

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral.
All religion has to have its day
Expressions on the face of the Saviour
Made me say
I can't stay.

Open up the gates of the church and let me out of here!
Too many people have lied in the name of Christ
For anyone to heed the call.
So many people have died in the name of Christ
That I can't believe it all.

And now I'm standing on the grave of a soldier that died in 1799
And the day he died it was a birthday
And I noticed it was mine.
And my head didn't know just who I was
And I went spinning back in time.
And I am high upon the altar
High upon the altar, high.

I'm flying in Winchester cathedral,
It's hard enough to drink the wine.
The air inside just hangs in delusion,
But given time,
I'll be fine.

Graham Nash / CSN

[MrModerate]

104. OK. That was funny. And not what I was expecting when I read the headline. n/t

[Odin2005]

113. This Atheist likes Jesus, it's his followers who drive me crazy.