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enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:53 AM Jan 2013

A question about what my (college) students are saying - help would be appreciated.

Obviously, I have no close familiarity with what is being taught in churches these days, so admit I'm perplexed about the following.

I teach history. Naturally, the topic of religion comes up and often - usually in the survey US history classes - when we turn to discussing the Reformation (sometimes it doesn't pop up until we're discussing the Puritans/Separatists) a student will say something like:

"But Catholics aren't Christians, are they?"

The first time I heard it I was gobsmacked. Since then, I've learned how to address the question; how to explain it in a way that they understand (or at least accept). What I am curious about is WHY they believe this?

Usually, I will gently probe to see if I can determine if the student is ignorant of all religion or has been raised in a particular faith - sometimes they'll volunteer the information. Broadly, it appears that most of the students' who believe this come from one of the more modern (in historical terms) Protestant denominations. I don't recall ever having a student who was not religious ask the question - nor a student who professed belonging to one of the "original" Protestant denominations ask the question.

Does anyone have any insight into why some of these young people (they are always traditionally aged students - late teens to very early twenties) would believe this?

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A question about what my (college) students are saying - help would be appreciated. (Original Post) enlightenment Jan 2013 OP
Some extreme protestant evangelicals teach the catholic church is of satan CBGLuthier Jan 2013 #1
Saint Peter was the Antichrist? DetlefK Jan 2013 #2
I know, it is crazy. CBGLuthier Jan 2013 #3
Interesting - and odd. enlightenment Jan 2013 #6
Official Protestant doctrine: the Pope is the Anti-christ bananas Feb 2013 #36
Those Churches' current position is rather different. okasha Feb 2013 #37
Fascinating. enlightenment Feb 2013 #38
If the Pope is the Antichrist No Vested Interest Feb 2013 #39
Products Of Fundy Nut Religion TheMastersNemesis Jan 2013 #4
This is pretty much what I've gathered over the years, enlightenment Jan 2013 #7
College students? Alameda Jan 2013 #30
Yep. College students. enlightenment Feb 2013 #32
I used to say "Catholics were Christians before being Christian was 'cool'" SharonAnn Jan 2013 #5
Interesting method! enlightenment Jan 2013 #8
It's Not Just Modern Evangelicals On the Road Jan 2013 #9
Thank you - enlightenment Jan 2013 #11
Essentially, they are saying the Catholic Church apostasized many centuries ago. rug Jan 2013 #10
Thanks, rug. enlightenment Jan 2013 #12
This is one area where the Catholic Church has actually improved. white_wolf Jan 2013 #13
I remember hearing this as a child, but have not heard it in many years. cbayer Jan 2013 #14
Oi. Been there, done that, got several t-shirts. okasha Jan 2013 #15
You sound like a good friend of mine. enlightenment Jan 2013 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author okasha Jan 2013 #16
You want to know how the "modern" denominations think? intaglio Jan 2013 #17
Jack Chick does not represent mainline protestants or "modern" denominations. cbayer Jan 2013 #19
I agree about Mainline but in relation to the OP intaglio Jan 2013 #20
As I said above, I heard this as a child (which is a long, long time ago, lol), but cbayer Jan 2013 #21
Anti-Catholicism is a popular enlightenment Jan 2013 #31
Yes, rug pointed me to some of those. enlightenment Jan 2013 #29
I'd ask "What do you think?", "Why?", "Define Christianity and Catholicism in your own terms." pinto Jan 2013 #18
Oh, I do ask why - enlightenment Jan 2013 #24
And thank you. It is interesting all around, even from this layman's pov. Kudos. pinto Feb 2013 #34
I first ran into this when I moved to the bible belt..... truegrit44 Jan 2013 #22
Now that is sad. enlightenment Jan 2013 #25
i have encountered this with a couple libertarianish friends.. Phillip McCleod Jan 2013 #23
I don't think you need to be a teacher to enlightenment Jan 2013 #26
P.o.p.e pkdu Jan 2013 #27
Michelle Bachmann belonged to such a church Freddie Feb 2013 #33
Eh. Ask what they mean by it. Igel Feb 2013 #35

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
1. Some extreme protestant evangelicals teach the catholic church is of satan
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:56 AM
Jan 2013

I first came across this 20 years ago on the radio and was floored. There is one asshole preacher who has a regular infomercial on Sunday mornings whose entire sermons are about nothing more than the catholic church being created by the antichrist.


Sad, isn't it.

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
3. I know, it is crazy.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:01 PM
Jan 2013

They actually believe that for 1500 years there was no true church until Luther banged a note on a door.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
36. Official Protestant doctrine: the Pope is the Anti-christ
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 06:31 AM
Feb 2013
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-antichrist

The claim that the pope is the Antichrist has been part of anti-Catholic rhetoric since the Reformation, when it was needed to justify the Protestant Reformers’ desire to leave the Catholic Church.

Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord states, &quot T)he pope is the real Antichrist who has raised himself over and set himself against Christ . . . Accordingly, just as we cannot adore the devil himself as our lord or God, so we cannot suffer his apostle, the pope or Antichrist, to govern us as our head or lord" (Smalcald Articles 2:4:10, 14).

The Presbyterian and Anglican Westminster Confession states, "There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and that son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God" (25:6).

<snip>

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
38. Fascinating.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:08 PM
Feb 2013

Thank you for the citations - I obviously need to read further.

I understand the rhetoric as functional legitimizing statements for the early reform faiths; they obviously needed something pretty powerful to argue - but I wonder if that attitude is still prevalent. There are a lot of "laws" on the books that aren't enforced anymore.

I was raised (until eleven when I told my parents I wasn't buying it) in the Presbyterian church - Sunday school and chapel every week. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that the Catholic church was the embodiment of evil . . . I may not have been paying attention, though. I'll have to ask my Lutheran raised (confirmation classes and all) friend if that's what she was taught.

 

TheMastersNemesis

(10,602 posts)
4. Products Of Fundy Nut Religion
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:07 PM
Jan 2013

Evangelicals and fundamentalists do not seem to believe Catholics are Christian. In fact the Catholic religion is more Christian than any of them having been established by the apostles. Read the new Testament and the epistles to the first Christians and it should be obvious unless you are on something.

I am a recovering Catholic and have not practiced in 47 years. I spent 16 1/2 years in the Catholic school system and even though I think the Church is now way off track there is more legitimacy in one priest than there is in all the preachers of all these pseudo religions, which are businesses selling the Bible and not faith or spirituality.

These kids have been brainwashed for virtually all their life and all the hear is RW religion which is a fraud.

My reply to these kids would be the Church is more Christian than you are.

Now regrettably the Church has acted very badly on the sexual abuse issue. And I do not understand why they have not addressed that issue correctly.

Even though I make no apologies for the actions of the Catholic Church today, I know they have legitimacy as a Christian religion. And you have to remember that the American churches came from the Elmer Gantry tent religion.

I do not know how you handle the question for your students because you did not state it. They cannot cite 2000 years of tradition like the Church can.


enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
7. This is pretty much what I've gathered over the years,
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:25 PM
Jan 2013

that it is something coming out of particular denominations. A colleague often discuss it. Their perspective is that many of the "new" churches are so much more about community then instruction that there are young people who simply don't have a clue.

I would argue your perception of where American churches came from - yes, a lot of revivalism in the second great awakening, but plenty of other roots to the branches as well (all that just being a scholarly disagreement, though, and not really relevant to the current discussion!)

As to how I handle it? I ask them where we get the word "Christian". They know the answer to that. Then I ask them what the first church was - sometimes they know that; sometimes they need a little help (usually the rest of the class assists). Then I ask them to put two and two together.

Then the light comes on for most. The kids who have been raised in hard-core fundamentalist faiths will just nod and accept that they're not going to win the argument in a history class, but the others . . . well, often it looks like they are experiencing a revelation and that's what learning is about. Turning on a few more lights in a room and seeing some different things.

My European history students sometimes ask this question, but we spend much more time on the role of religion in Western history, so for the most part I think those that don't understand begin to by the time we get to the Reformation.

Thank you for your reply.

Alameda

(1,895 posts)
30. College students?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:30 PM
Jan 2013

amazing.....

cath·o·lic (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: "The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found" (Scientific American).
2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: "what was of catholic rather than national interest" (J.A. Froude).
3. Catholic
a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
32. Yep. College students.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:18 AM
Feb 2013

Traditional age. I've never had a mature student (i.e., older) make the statement. They do tend to sit and roll their eyes when they hear it, though . . .

SharonAnn

(13,772 posts)
5. I used to say "Catholics were Christians before being Christian was 'cool'"
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:10 PM
Jan 2013

Or, "Catholics were Christians before anyone else was."

Or, "Remember the Christians vs the Lions? The Christians were Catholic."

Not that it has much effect, but I enjoy saying it.

Oh, and one more thing. Near Christmas a clerk very belligerently said "Merry Christmas!" to me and went on to say "They can't prevent me from saying that". I responded, "Thank you. And Merry Christmas to you. It's a very Catholic thing to say". Left her very confused. But maybe she'll think about it. Then again, maybe not.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
8. Interesting method!
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 12:27 PM
Jan 2013

I try to turn it into a learning moment, since we're in a classroom . . . I don't think I've ever run into it otherwise!

Thanks for the reply (gave me a chuckle!)

On the Road

(20,783 posts)
9. It's Not Just Modern Evangelicals
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:01 PM
Jan 2013

Some traditional fundamentalists have had the same belief. It really goes back to the Reformation, although it might have been expressed differently.

The rationale is that the Christian gospel involves salvation by faith in Jesus alone, which is spelled out in Paul's letter. Catholicism, ooh, teaches a different gospel, one in which good works and obedience to the church are important, and amounts to little more than Christianized paganism. Reformation-oriented Protestants hold that believing in sola fides and sola scriptora (only faith and only scripture) are essential to true Christianity.

There is a whole host of associated criticisms of the Catholic church which highlight the stranger elements and those that do not seem to be in keeping with specific Bible passages. These includes having a pope and a hierarchy, praying to Mary and the saints, and placing church tradition on a par with the Bible. Some of these are surprisingly similar to anti-historical-Jesus arguments such as incorporating elements of Mithraism into the church.

There is a whole spectrum of attitudes towards Catholicism. Simply dismissing it as a non-Christian religion is kind of an extreme one, but it's prevalent. If you live in an area of the country with no Catholics, you can go years without having your views disabused.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
11. Thank you -
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:53 PM
Jan 2013

fascinating stuff! I can see (if I squint - *grin*) how those criticisms might lead to the belief that Catholicism isn't Christian - it is a very extreme position, however.

I've never met an "old school" Protestant that expressed such a view, though that only reflects my experience. My colleague was raised Lutheran and doesn't recall ever hearing anything like it in her religious training; I have friends who were raised Anglican and Methodist - same thing. I was raised (until I was eleven and told my parents I wasn't buying it) Scottish Presbyterian; I don't recall any criticism of Catholicism in my Sunday school classes . . .

It's interesting, definitely. I live in the Southwest and there are many Catholics (both Roman and Eastern Orthodox) and a boatload of Protestant denominations. So many "storefront" churches that I couldn't begin to tell you how many different kinds. They seem to spring up like mushrooms.

This phenomenon seems - in the broad view - to be more of a general ignorance of religious history than a deliberate denial. Yes, I have had students who obviously have been taught that their faith is the only true faith, but more that seem genuinely baffled.

It's odd - and since I experienced it again yesterday (two students in one class this time), I thought I'd ask!

Thanks again.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
10. Essentially, they are saying the Catholic Church apostasized many centuries ago.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:40 PM
Jan 2013

When that occurred varies. It is most often put on Constantine, some say Pepin.

The RCC is often referred to in those quarters as the "Whore of Babylon" that does not teach what Christ taught (hence they are not Christian), that it is unbiblical and engages in the idolatry of Mary, wafers and statues.

My impression is that this line of criticism gained force in the last century or more as "Biblical Christianity", focused solely on the Bible, splintered from the tradional Protestant churches.

As always, Jack Chick has more:

http://www.chick.com/default.asp

Maybe your department can send him the 16 cents.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
12. Thanks, rug.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 01:55 PM
Jan 2013

I appreciate the thoughtful reply - and the links.

My department wouldn't spring for a nickel, much less 16 cents - I consider myself fortunate to weasel a whiteboard marker out of them once a semester and they buy those in bulk!

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
13. This is one area where the Catholic Church has actually improved.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:21 PM
Jan 2013

I know it used to be fairly common for Catholics to call Protestant "heretics", but I believe they have backed away from that view and now consider Protestants "brothers."

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. I remember hearing this as a child, but have not heard it in many years.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:24 PM
Jan 2013

I always thought it represented some sort of bigotry against catholics.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
15. Oi. Been there, done that, got several t-shirts.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 03:28 PM
Jan 2013

I used to run into this fairly regularly in the Brit Lit survey course. I taught the Scottish Play for Billy Shakes because I'm permanently burned out on Hamlet, and invariably when I was doing the historical background--Henry VIII and his break with Rome, portions of the play meant to flatter the Protestant James VI/I, Lady M's wickedness as a reference to his Catholic mother, etc.--someone would pop up with "Catholics aren't Christian." The students making this "contribution" were always, no exceptions, young members of independent evangelical and usually fundamentalist congregations. They were convinced that Catholics pray to images, indulge in unspeakable practices in the confessional, and will be Left Behind when all the righteous are hoovered up to heaven at the second coming, which was scheduled for no later than the following Wednesday.

Whereupon the second half of the period would be devoted to explaining, with appropriate Biblical and other references, how Christianity developed after the destruction of the Jerusalem church leadership in CE 70, and how Catholicism Roman and Orthodox was the only Christianity before the Reformation. (Glancing mention of the Cathars and other exceptions.) It was such a frequent thing that I considered actually putting the discussion in my syllabus. Fortunately, and especially in evening classes, there were usually one or two older Catholic students who could help explain not only what Catholics do but why they do it. The kicker in all this was that there was I, a pagan, teaching remedial catechism to Christian kids.

I think what we've got here in the mega- and independent-church movement is a sort of Reformation of the Reformation. The leaders of such congregations have in many cases not only not done the M.Div. at a seminary, but have not had any kind of formal training in Bible, church or other history, or scriptural languages. Most of them come from either fundamentalist or Pentecostal traditions that use only the KJV, whose 17th. Century English they don't fully understand--or worse, the so-called "Living Bible"--and are riding their own particular doctrinal hobby-horses. And as you say, one of those poor nags is anti-Catholicism.

*Self deleted following post because it was an accidental duplicate.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
28. You sound like a good friend of mine.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:18 PM
Jan 2013

She was about ready to gnaw off a limb before teaching Hamlet again, so she also switched to the Scottish play and Titus (which, interestingly, the kid's love). I haven't asked her if she gets this question much - I'll have to do that!

I have thought for awhile that we are in the midst of another "great awakening". Religion seems to get to a certain point and then requires fairly substantial change. That change often comes from the bottom up. I recall the first time I read a "letter" - a portion of an auto-biography - written by a female ancestor. She was born into a Quaker family in 1794 and describes in interesting detail how after the death of her father, various members of her family were attracted to different new Christian sects. Some were very odd, indeed; the only thing they had in common was that their leadership apparently came up with the concept on his own and was convinced that it was the next best thing to paradise.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Response to enlightenment (Original post)

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
17. You want to know how the "modern" denominations think?
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:03 PM
Jan 2013

Then check Jack Chick
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

Some of the rancid cuts from this bigot include:
Saying that childhood baptism is not Christian;
Saying that Catholics are not true Americans because they are also of the Vatican;
Saying that the penance of the confessional is not true repentance;
Saying that Priests, nuns, monks and the Pope are not Christian.

There's much more but I cannot be ars ... bothered to delve into the sick mind of this obnoxious fool

intaglio

(8,170 posts)
20. I agree about Mainline but in relation to the OP
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 05:49 PM
Jan 2013

I think that Chick counts as being in a modern denomination - though perhaps recent might be a better word. I do not think that Chick and his boosters are representative of Protestant thinking, but venture into some of the wilder MBs and blogs and you will see his views are not uncommon.

An afterthought ...

After I began this post it occurred it may be that this demonisation (so to speak) of Catholicism is both an older and more widespread undercurrent than is commonly recognised. I know that in the UK anti-catholicism was responsible for the restrictions on public office only lost in the late 19th C and that the monarch has only recently been allowed to marry a catholic; additionally much of the violence in Northern Ireland is founded in such prejudice. Think also in the USA about how Jack Kennedy had to issue a statement that his religion would not take precedence over his duties as President.

This afterthought is not complete and I am not even sure how real the phenomenon is but it is food for further thought.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
21. As I said above, I heard this as a child (which is a long, long time ago, lol), but
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 06:03 PM
Jan 2013

have not heard it since then. Agree that it really got stirred up during Kennedy's run for president.

The fact that Chick is still pushing it is not surprising. He and his publications are pretty despicable.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
31. Anti-Catholicism is a popular
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:41 PM
Jan 2013

sentiment in many periods since the Reformation, which makes sense in a way. Undermining the authority of the established Church would have been necessary to establish legitimacy of the newer faiths. As far as the UK is concerned, there was an actual issue with who the monarch married, since they are officially the head of the the Church of England. It's not really prejudice, but doctrine, I'd think. Ireland is such a convoluted issue . . . I'm not sure I want to tackle that one on a message board!

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
29. Yes, rug pointed me to some of those.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:19 PM
Jan 2013

Pretty vile - hard to believe they are meant as "genuine" and not satire.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
18. I'd ask "What do you think?", "Why?", "Define Christianity and Catholicism in your own terms."
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 04:20 PM
Jan 2013

Or some such within your professional framework and see where the discussion led.

(aside) My guess is this stems from an old distrust of "Papism". Some Protestant sects saw the Catholic church structure as apostate and heretical, un-Christian. Essentially they saw the Pope displacing the role of Jesus in Christianity. In extreme rhetoric, the Pope was the "anti-Christ".

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
24. Oh, I do ask why -
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:01 PM
Jan 2013

and then try to help them understand the basic (very basic) historical context for Christianity.

It's not a problem; it was just intriguing and I thought I'd ask for some perspective from outside my academic community - which I am getting . . . and it is interesting and valuable.
Thank you.

truegrit44

(332 posts)
22. I first ran into this when I moved to the bible belt.....
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:26 PM
Jan 2013

Grew up Catholic (let it go and try to not think of it years ago) but was raised in the Los Angeles area and at that time Catholic was king. Even when I moved to some of the western states CO, WY, NM it was no problem. THEN........I moved to OK and at that time was still practicing and one of my kids came home about in tears and said all the kids at school were calling him names for being Catholic because he wasn't a Christian. I was speechless.

This was in a very small rural community and 90% of the folks went to the same Southern Baptist church. We had to drive a good distance to find the Catholic church in our area. I don't think to this day I have gotten over the 5 years of basic hate that we were shown while living there because of our religion and the fact we weren't from there. If you want to be hated in small rural areas of the south try telling them your from CA and Catholic!

I think it is due to the same thing that gives so many the racial hate.........it is passed down and just brain washing from from low effort thinking parents.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
25. Now that is sad.
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:03 PM
Jan 2013

Making the comment in a classroom is one thing. Using it as a cudgel to beat another kid over the head is awful. You have my sympathies - my son was bullied for a lot of things and it was a terrible time for all of us.

 

Phillip McCleod

(1,837 posts)
23. i have encountered this with a couple libertarianish friends..
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 10:33 PM
Jan 2013

i am no professor so no class experience and they are about my age (40). one friend was adamant and not the brightest bulb so explaining the history wasn't going to help so i just explained 'christian' was a self-identifying label and if they called themselves christian then so they were.

the other guy a bit younger not particularly religious was more interested in discussing the history of christianity and especially heresies. as rug pointed out upthread the apostasy of the rcc is an old bone. isaac newton was absolutely obsessed with the arian heresy (no relation to aryans) and predicted the apocalypse somewhere around 2060 when the rcc would get its just reward in his view. he decided the 'true church' died when charlemagne was annointed and the holy roman empire was born.

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
26. I don't think you need to be a teacher to
Thu Jan 31, 2013, 11:05 PM
Jan 2013

turn on a few lights. Sounds like you have a good way of dealing with this. Thank you for sharing your approach.

Freddie

(9,265 posts)
33. Michelle Bachmann belonged to such a church
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 12:23 AM
Feb 2013

Thought Catholics believed in Satan or some such idiocy. Wisconsin Synod Lutheran I think. Please don't confuse that with the ELCA (the "normal" Lutherans); we certainly do accept Catholics as our fellow Christians and they're even starting to accept us, except for the communion thing.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
35. Eh. Ask what they mean by it.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 12:26 AM
Feb 2013

You want to know what they mean, probing to figure out why they mean what you think they mean isn't the way to to do it.

A good friend when I was in high school adamantly denied he was Christian. He said he was Catholic. I was curious and asked.

He knew the Church's history. He knew about the Reformation. Protestantism. He defined "Christian" as what all the born-again evangelicals and charismatics were. They went around calling themselves "Christian." He wasn't one of them. He accepted their self-designation and was saying he failed to meet that definition. It didn't bother him. He was ableo to process a fairly complex and overlapping set of meaning.

When push came to shove, yeah, he said he was Christian. And the evangelicals and charismatics would almost all admit he was Christian. Didn't stop him from saying that he wasn't "Christian." The scare-quotes might make it clearer. But we only have scare-quotes and no-scare-quotes, while we'd need a few more levels of "scare-ness" in the quotes.

A lot of folk in Protestant and post-Protestant denominations can handle the same complexity. They can keep the levels of meaning straight, for the most part. Outsiders have trouble understanding them. And some insiders do, too.

My old church openly said that the Catholic church wasn't "Primitive Xianity" but was apostate. Protestantism was Catholicism warmed over lightly. Perhaps a bit better. Other churches of more recent vintage were also more recently apostate. Depending on the context, either all of them failed to be Christian; Catholics and Protestants failed to be Xian; just Catholics failed to be Xian; or all of them were Xian, but Hindus and Taoists weren't Xian.

Just ask. When you get things that don't make sense, continue to ask. Don't point out contradictions to confuse them. Learn to pose examples and see how they describe them--and be sure to get contexts straight, or ask whether they could say something and get them to provide the context.

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