Did Pope Francis misspeak?

[eomer]

Pope Francis today said that when “you don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to the worldliness of the devil.”

Did he misspeak? I've learned in this group (and I then found some church statements to confirm) that the Catholic Church has adopted a position that other religions worship the same god as Christians.

[Kalidurga]

1. I highly doubt it...

I am sure he chooses his words carefully.

[Dawson Leery]

2. A sad excuse of a Jesuit.

To fundamentalists: "Worldiness" means knowledge which equals freedom.

[cbayer]

3. Unless I am reading this incorrectly, this was a homily specifically for the cardinals

and not the general public.

In light of that, that remark makes much more sense.

[Jim__]

4. I agree with you. I don't see any other way to read it.

...

Without moving forward, building the church and professing the faith earnestly, the princes of the church are “like children on the beach when they build sand castles: It all comes down,” Francis said, rubbing his fingers together.

Francis’s own elevation to the throne of Saint Peter represents a great leap forward for a church whose future could well rest in the hemisphere from which the Argentine hails.

He acknowledged in his homily that “things aren’t so easy” and that “sometimes there are quakes and movements” that make the journey hard. But he warned the men arrayed in golden robes before him that when “you don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to the worldliness of the devil.”

Speaking softly, even kindly, to his cardinals in the Sistine Chapel, Francis nevertheless seemed to attack the hypocrisy that many believe has infected the governance of the church.

...

[eomer]

5. The other way to read it (in reply to you and Jim__)

obviously is to take the words at their face value - "When one"... "Whoever"... "When one" would seem to apply to everyone.

When one does not profess Jesus Christ – I recall the phrase of Leon Bloy – “Whoever does not pray to God, prays to the devil.” When one does not profess Jesus Christ, one professes the worldliness of the devil.

Full text of today's homily at the Sistine Chapel

Are the rules that complicated that an ordinary person not professing Jesus Christ would not be praying to the devil but a Cardinal would? Your interpretation seems a stretch to me - always a lot of wiggle room for theists to damn each other, no such escape clause allowed to us atheists who would be labeled bigots for the equivalent.

[cbayer]

7. I think I'm not being clear. If he is only speaking to cardinals then he is only

speaking to christians. Telling them to pray to Jesus is different than saying that everyone should do that (or they are praying to the devil). He is encouraging them to build the church and not become an NGO. He is speaking to the leaders of that church.

In short, if his audience is limited to RCC leaders by definition, he is not contradicting the position that you reference.

BTW, I presume that you are making assumptions about my beliefs or lack thereof which have no basis in fact. While it allows you to set up an "us" vs "them" scenario, it is not valid.

All I am trying to do here is understand what the man was saying and why he worded it that way.

[eomer]

8. He didn't just tell them to pray to Jesus, he said if they didn't then they pray to the devil.

Hard to see how a Christian who doesn't pray to Jesus is praying to the devil but then that wouldn't apply to all non-Christians. How is a Christian who doesn't pray to Jesus a Christian? Isn't such a person a non-Christian at that point? Is Christianity like the Mafia - once you join you can't quit? But a person who was never a Christian can not pray to Jesus and won't be praying to the devil? Hard to make any sense of this, other than that people, all of the them, who don't pray to Jesus are damned.

Also notice later in the homily the further qualification that once must pray not just to Jesus but to Jesus on the Cross. If a person prays to Jesus-not-on-the-cross, like some liberal sects that call themselves Christian, then that person too is praying to the devil. That would be the Christians who post in this group, for the most part.

And I don't think I'm the one who sets up an "us" vs "them" scenario. I think it should be fine for everyone to speak their beliefs, all of them, without being labeled a bigot. If Christians believe (which I think they do) that not praying to Jesus will damn you then let them say so. But likewise, if atheists believe that all religion is for fools then let them say so too.

[cbayer]

9. If you read this in context, he is saying that instead of being NGO's they need

to re-affirm their religious affiliations.

Many christians, including many catholics, do not believe that there is only "one way", so I disagree with your statements that christians in general believe that if one doesn't pray to their jesus, they are damned.

People can say whatever they want, of course, but when one makes blanket statements about other groups of people with whom they disagree (providing those beliefs do not infringe on the rights of others), they are displaying bigotry. Doesn't matter whether they are believers or not.

One can't escape being called a bigot if one is, in fact, a bigot.

I have no idea what "christians that post in this group" you are referring to and I've never seen anyone here post that people that don't pray to "jesus on the cross" are praying to the devil and going to hell. Where have you seen that?

[eomer]

12. Obviously it's not the Cardinals he's worried are praying to a Jesus not on the cross.

It would be liberal Christians, like my wife, who "pray to Jesus" not on the cross. They (many of them) are followers of the teachings of Jesus but do not profess him on the cross. Many Christians in this group would be, I think, of a like mind.

The Cardinals obviously do profess Jesus on the cross. The Pope was speaking to them about the growing numbers in the flocks who this would apply to, not about the Cardianals themselves to whom it obviously would not.

[cbayer]

13. At this point, I don't even know what you are talking about.

I've never even heard someone make a distinction between jesus and jesus on the cross.

And I just googled it and can't even find a different definition.

So you have lost me here.

[eomer]

14. Sorry, I was referring to another part of his homily.

This Gospel continues with a special situation. The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/03/14/full-text-pope-franciss-first-homily-in-the-sistine-chapel/

[cbayer]

16. I think the cross part is metaphorical.

Again, he appears to be making the argument that the cardinals need to turn back to the basic principles of christianity and away from the paths on which the church has strayed.

That, imo, is not such a bad message, because the RCC has definitely lost their way.

[eomer]

18. Yes, it's a metaphor for belief in the divinity of Jesus.

All of that is good. But saying, on the other hand, that whoever doesn't pray to Jesus on the cross is praying to the devil is about as bad as one could get. What could he say about someone that is worse than that?

[cbayer]

19. Again, I am going to maintain that he was speaking to a very narrow audience

and not making a blanket statement. You disagree. That's ok.

[eomer]

22. First homily of a new Pope, no reason to take care that his message will address, let's say,

hundreds of millions of people.

[eomer]

32. The homily was broadcast to millions.

And he was preaching about a general doctrine of the church that applies to everyone. To say that the principles laid out in Matthew 16:13-23 only apply to Cardinals would be ridiculous. Whomever he was preaching to, he chose to preach principles that say that if you don't profess Jesus on the Cross then you profess the worldliness of the devil.

[okasha]

20. Again, you are misquoting.

He doesn't say anything at all about praying to Jesus on or off the cross. He'talking about preaching Jesus without the Cross--ie., without facing up to the fact that preaching and living the gospel may well involve suffering, hardship, pain, even death.

If it's a slap at anything, it's at the name it and claim it so called prosperity gospel.

[eomer]

21. I've linked to the full text of the homily twice, here it is a third time.

Third, professing: we can walk as much we want, we can build many things, but if we do not confess Jesus Christ, nothing will avail. We will become a pitiful NGO, but not the Church, the Bride of Christ. When one does not walk, one stalls. When one does not built on solid rocks, what happens? What happens is what happens to children on the beach when they make sandcastles: everything collapses, it is without consistency. When one does not profess Jesus Christ – I recall the phrase of Leon Bloy – “Whoever does not pray to God, prays to the devil.” When one does not profess Jesus Christ, one professes the worldliness of the devil.

This Gospel continues with a special situation. The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/03/14/full-text-pope-franciss-first-homily-in-the-sistine-chapel/

Are you hung up on "profess" rather than "pray"? The result is the same - whoever doesn't profess Jesus (atheists) or doesn't profess Jesus on the cross (many liberal Christians) is one who professes the worldliness of the devil. Neither of those would apply to Cardinals - surely we can agree that they do all profess Jesus on the cross.

[okasha]

23. I am hung up on the difference

between what he said and what you say he said. Show me the quote--not another one of your paraphrases; the quote--where he speaks about either praying to or professing Jesus «on the cross.»

Then we can talk.

[eomer]

24. I just did give you that quote. Here it is again.

This Gospel continues with a special situation. The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

I've linked to the full text of his first homily several times, including on the post you just replied to. It's not very long. I would recommend you read it, if you have an interest in this debate, and then you'll be able to have an opinion based on knowing what he said.

[okasha]

29. I have read the whole thing twice.

There is nothing in it about praying to Jesus on or off the cross. You are raising a non-issue over somrthing the man never said.

Have a nice day.

[eomer]

31. Here is the part about professing Jesus without the Cross:

This Gospel continues with a special situation. The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

Still not sure if you're basing your argument on a distinction between "pray to Jesus" and "profess Jesus". The Pope used them interchangeably and so have I; they do seem to have the same underlying meaning in this context.

If you're not making that distinction then maybe you were just missing the phrase that I bolded above when you read the homily?

And I am not raising a non-issue. The Pope in his first homily preached about Matthew 16:13-23. The message of this passage, as interpreted by Pope Francis, is that whoever doesn't profess Christ on the Cross "professes the worldliness of the devil".

[pinto]

33. He's speaking to the representatives of the Church, not its lay congregations -

"When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord."

I take it as an allusion to a number of the Church's problems.

Profess here doesn't mean pray. It means taking the vows of a religious order, to declare, to stand for something.

And Christ without the Cross alludes to some sacrifice in the choice.

i.e. - When we stand for Christ without some sacrifice, we are not disciples. We are worldly...but not disciples.

I think he was calling the attendees on the carpet. I think it's a bit interesting that he included Popes.

[eomer]

36. I don't see how it is about sacrifices - it is about profession, about belief.

At the end he sums it up:

"to profess the one glory, Christ Crucified"

If one doesn't do that then one professes the worldliness of the devil.

This is the crux of Christianity according to the Catholic Church and the Pope. It is also antithetical to the idea that other faiths in the world are true and offer salvation just as the Catholic Church does.

[Jim__]

10. Just read the full sentence as it appears in the article.

But he warned the men arrayed in golden robes before him that when “you don’t pray to Jesus, you pray to the worldliness of the devil.”

[Phillip McCleod]

15. so then when non-cardinals don't pray to jesus

they *aren't* praying to the wordliness of the devil?

to what then, pray tell, do they pray according to the broggo?

[Jim__]

17. The article doesn't address the question.

If it's weighing heavily on your mind, you could try writing to the pope and asking him.

[Phillip McCleod]

30. it's not addressed by the article therefore it's outside the scope of discussion?

very well.. don't talk about it. the rest of us can discuss it amongst ourselves.

[okasha]

11. Except that he didn't say «one»

Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 09:00 PM - Edit history (1)

or «whoever.» The remark was addressed to the cardinals sitting in front of him. You--second person plural.

And unless he was speaking in English, this could not have been ambiguous. Other languages differentiate clearly between second person and indefinate third person.

Edited to add;

Scratch the above. I was responding to your first post on the assumption that you had provided an accurate quote. You had not.

The Vatican Radio translation does indeed use one and whoever, but he seems to be speaking strictly within the context of the Catholic Church and its mission («We.»)

[eomer]

35. Apologies for the confusion.

My intent of the quotation marks in a few cases was as scare quotes. I see now it is confusing in a thread like this so next time I will use italics or something similar, not scare quotes.

And the lesson he preached is the lesson Jesus taught^* in Matthew 16:13-23. According to Jesus^* it's not applicable just to Cardinals but to everyone.

^* As claimed by the writer of Matthew, whoever that was.

[Mariana]

6. I believe that position only applies to

other Christian religions - in other words, the ones whose adherents pray to Jesus.

[eomer]

25. He used his first message to condemn others who believe differently.

If you read the first homily in its entirety, clearly Pope Francis is referring to Christians who would follow the teachings of Jesus (and to secular humanists and other atheists who would) without believing in the divinity of Jesus. His insistence on professing Jesus "on the cross" clearly is an insistence on the belief in divinity of Jesus. And if you don't believe that then you "profess the worldliness of the devil".

I would expect the Pope to preach the divinity of Jesus. But supposedly the Catholic Church does so while also saying that other religions are valid, that they pray to the same God, which is incompatible with a statement that they "pray to the devil" or "profess the worldliness of the devil".

His first message, that obviously would be heard by the whole world, could have been a gesture of inclusivity and community with all people of the world. Instead it was a message condemning all who don't believe as he does.

Edit to add a link to full text of the first homily:

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/03/14/full-text-pope-franciss-first-homily-in-the-sistine-chapel/

Edit again for link to the text in Spanish:

http://www.romereports.com/palio/modules.php?name=AvantGoe&file=print&sid=9423

[eomer]

26. The Pope was referring to Peter's rejection of the cross, which would apply to us all.

The third reading during the service in the Sistine Chapel was Matthew 16:13-19, which includes the profession of Peter:

Matthew 16:13-19

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

And then the Pope in his homily referred to the continuation of the story, in which Peter rejects the cross:

Matthew 16:21-23

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter had "professed Jesus" but now he denied "Jesus on the cross". He rejected the idea that Jesus would die on the cross. Jesus responded "Get thee behind me, Satan".

Are we to interpret that Pope Francis says this verse applies to the Cardinals but not to everyone else? Clearly not. The Pope chose to say, in his first homily, that those who don't profess Jesus on the cross, like Peter in this story, are doing the work of Satan.

[Jim__]

28. "... we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord."

Yes, he was addressing the cardinals - from the exact place you are now citing, and he's specifically talking about professing Christ:

This Gospel continues with a special situation. The same Peter who confessed Jesus Christ, says, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. I will follow you, but let us not speak of the Cross. This has nothing to do with it.” He says, “I’ll follow you on other ways, that do not include the Cross.” When we walk without the Cross, when we build without the Cross, and when we profess Christ without the Cross, we are not disciples of the Lord. We are worldly, we are bishops, priests, cardinals, Popes, but not disciples of the Lord.

From the Chicago Tribune on the pope's first homily:

The Argentinian pope, addressing cardinals in the Sistine Chapel where he was elected pontiff on Wednesday, said the Church should be more focused on the Gospels of Jesus Christ.

[trotsky]

27. Yeah, you've gotten a lot of abuse in this thread but the translations are inconsistent.

From your first link:
When one does not profess Jesus Christ – I recall the phrase of Leon Bloy – “Whoever does not pray to God, prays to the devil.” When one does not profess Jesus Christ, one professes the worldliness of the devil.

Definitely reason to wonder, at least.

I find it disturbing how many DUers instinctively leap to the defense of a man who opposes so many progressive ideals.