Local Business Refuses To Print Shirts For Atheist Group

[rug]

Monday, May 6 2013, 10:52 PM MDT

(KUTV) An atheist group says they are being discriminated against by a local business.

The Atheists of Utah wanted a local printer to make shirts that say “Gotta Be Real Cuz God Ain’t!” They planned to wear them in the upcoming Pride Parade, but the printer said, “No way.”

The owners of TIKI Printing in West Valley are Christian and found the message a personal attack on their faith. “We weren’t going to be the delivery method for that message that demeaned our beliefs,” TIKI Printing owner Sam Saltzman said.

Atheists of Utah say refusing to print the shirts is discrimination.

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_4851.shtml

[Shadowflash]

1. Uh huh.

Let someone, somewhere, refuse service to someone because they are christian and see what happens. The whole “We weren’t going to be the delivery method for that message that demeaned our beliefs,” tune will not apply, then, I'm sure.

[mr blur]

3. Absolutely correct, as we've seen may time.

No-one has ever - ever - been as discriminated against as christians. Just ask some. (Of course they have to be "True Christians&quot

[struggle4progress]

13. Would it be your theory (say) that a printing company owned by a staunch Democrat

was obliged to print campaign literature for a Republican candidate? or that a printing company owned by African-Americans was obliged to print recruitment banners for a white supremacist group? or that a printing company owned by a gay couple was obliged to print anti-marriage-equality teashirts for conservative activists?

[LostOne4Ever]

22. What if it was

A group refusing to sell gas to a family because they were of a different religion. Further, lets say its the only gas station for miles and the family need to get to a town for a medicine thats greatly needed for their child.

Absurd hypothetical is absurd, but still what if something along those lines happens?

Just as in the case of the florists who doesn't want to do business for a gay marriage I don't think they should have the right to discriminate. Yes the shirts go against their beliefs but its not them who are advocating those beliefs, its just them filling an order for a customer.

So yes, in all those cases I think they should have to fill the orders. Just because you printed the T-shirts does not mean you endorse the message. Just like how the ACLU representing the KKK did not mean they supported their views.

[struggle4progress]

23. In this case, did the printer refuse any and all service, on grounds that the potential customers

were atheists, or did the printer simply refuse to print t-shirts with a particular message, on the grounds that the printer found the message offensive?

Your hypothetical gas station example would not be on-point, unless the printer here were refusing service to atheists simply because they were atheists

I might expect media and the promotion of ideas to represent a special area of law. Most people will probably regard freedom of speech and press, as including the right not to promote messages that one does not support. So, for example, it's certainly established law that newspapers are free to reject any particular advertisements; and I should guess the same applies to other media, such as radio, TV, or billboard companies. If that weren't the case, hate groups would save their pennies, and we'd regularly see billboards or hear radio spots with poisonous messages like "Thank Hitler for warning us about the Jews! Now let's finish the job!"

I think, of course, that Atheists of Utah has an absolute right to produce and wear such t-shirts. Rather more than that, I think the ACLU is correct in supporting the rights of hate groups to publicize their disgusting philosophies. But I do not think anyone can reasonably expect somebody else to help promote a particular message, and I doubt the ACLU has ever taken the position that anyone has a right to expect somebody else to help promote a particular message

[LostOne4Ever]

27. You raise some good points

I concede that you raise some good points, but I still think this falls into the category of discrimination.

What if the newspaper/billboard regularly ran ads for catholic churches and synagogues but refused to run an ad for a mosque. Wouldn't that be a case of religious discrimination? Regardless, I don't think the comparisons are apt in any case, as in those examples the owner could turn down the sale to hate groups because their billboard/ newspaper would have their names attached to a property and it would hurt future sales.

The printers does not have that issue as the customer's own the shirts and the company's name is not associated with it. It could not hurt their sales.

As for the free speech side of the argument, I don't see it as them helping promote a message they oppose; but, rather as the printer denying service to someone because of their religious beliefs. Printing the shirts in no way means that they endorse the shirt. Its their customer's slogan, one which states only the customer's opinion upon the existence of god. It does not make disparaging remarks against theist, only states the opinion of the customer.

If the shirts said, "Gotta keep it real Like Bathsheba" or simply "Gotta keep it real like God" would the printer of turned them down? I don't know, but i have my doubts. If they would turn them down, then that would be fine as they are treating all religious beliefs equally. However, if they would print those but not this one, then they are singling out atheists. How is that not religious discrimination?

Further, what actually do they object too? Is it the part about god not being real? If so their objection is against atheism itself. The shirts say nothing against theists. Its like the florist example. Does a florist have the right to refuse service if their flowers are going to be used at a gay wedding?

I admit, in both cases it is a case with a fine line that our government needs to walk between free speech and the right to not be discriminated against.

[hrmjustin]

2. Aren't there laws against discrimination?

I am not a fan of the shirt but don't we have laws against discrimination?

[2ndAmForComputers]

4. "Laws, schmaws. People I don't like don't count."

Seems to be the general attitude towards some groups.

[hrmjustin]

19. Maybe I went overboard on that one.

I do find the shirt offensive but I would still print it.

[Mariana]

24. Why do you find the shirt offensive?

It doesn't insult anyone.

[hrmjustin]

25. Got to be real because God ain't is not my cup of tea.

Maybe I am taking it wrong but it makes me feel that I as a believer am not being real.

[struggle4progress]

7. There are unlikely to be laws telling printers they have to print any message anybody wants

[struggle4progress]

6. They should probably just drive into Salt Lake City: the yellow pages

there list over a hundred local businesses that screen-print shirts, and the City itself is much more liberal than the rest of the state

[dimbear]

8. TIKI missed an interesting chance. They could have just claimed the shirts were eaten by seagulls.

Win win.

[backscatter712]

9. I wonder how people would perceive this story if...

the group refused service was Jewish...

[Meshuga]

12. I'm sure the Jewish group would be refused service

...If the Jewish group wanted to print something the business owners/managers see as an insult.

For example, if the Jewish group wanted to print something like "Jesus ain't the messiah," it would likely get turned down as well.

[Goblinmonger]

14. How does this "insult their faith"?

Sure, it says god isn't real. That isn't insulting to anyone's faith. It just says they're wrong. Would a shirt that says "Thunder comes not from Thor's hammer" be insulting? The worst thing that happens from that shirt is the ones that actually believe it end up in hell.

Additionally, do you conversely contend that any shirt about Jesus or god is inherently insulting to atheists? Would you be saying the same thing if an atheist printer refused to print a "Jesus saves" t-shirt (though, I don't see that happening)?

[Meshuga]

15. In their world view it is insulting

Given their way of thinking, saying that God does not exist would be just as offensive to them as I would be offended if someone requested to print homophobic t-shirts through my t-shirt printing business. I would refuse to print a t-shirt with a homophobic message because it is abhorrent to me in the same way that printing a "god does not exist" t-shirt is abhorrent to these people. I would guess.

I am not saying they are right for refusing service to this group since in my world view that message is not offensive. But the bad reaction is due to the way the business owner/management see the world.

[rug]

20. Welcome to DU.

[hrmjustin]

17. You make some good points.

I would be uneasy printing that shirt but I would do it for free speech issues. I would stand with the group to say while I disagree with you very much I will help you make it.
Besides I don't care for discrimination.

[hrmjustin]

18. Welcome to DU and welcome to the religion room.

[goldent]

21. I know someone in the tee-shirt printing business

and it is not rare for them to turn down work. He'll simply say "that's rude and I won't print it" - end of story.

[kysrsoze]

26. They should order some shirts that say, "Gotta Be Dickish 'Cause That's How I Am."

To me, this is as much of an asshole move as printing shirts that say, "Fuck Everybody," and being upset when someone won't print it. There are much better ways to get your point across. I'm sure some other business will think nothing of it and print their shirts for them, but nobody has to be forced to do it.

How about they stop crying about it and buy a silkscreen kit, and print their own? Obviously they don't need God to print a shirt.