If you were to go from a believer to un-believer do you think your life would be much different?

[hrmjustin]

I have to say for myself not really. Obviously I would not go to church and I would not pray but in the end my life would not be all that different. My values would not be all that different.

For nonbelievers who did believer how did your life and values change?

For Believers how do you think your values and life would be different if you lost your faith?

[rug]

1. Probably not much, other than having considerably less patience.

[hrmjustin]

2. Why less patience?

[rug]

3. 2 Corinthians 11:19

[LiberalAndProud]

29. Wow, that's patience?

See, I would translate that as, you think you are wise, but you are in fact an idiot.

And for some common ground, a parallel in science:

Your certainty that you are right has nothing to do with how right you are.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/on-being-certain/

I must edit this to point out that this truly is my understanding of this verse, as a following verse says this:

20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

[rug]

34. There's also scholars who say that is one of the most sarcastic verses Paul wrote.

[Wait Wut]

6. Oh, what do you know?

I got tons of patience. That's why I still have friends and a husband ('cause, yeah...they can push it). Try again, buddy.

[rug]

14. Bless you, sister.

[Wait Wut]

25. Yeah, yeah.

[Betsy Ross]

4. It did happen to me.

My values did not change. But I really miss what had been a very satisfying sense of spirituality.

[Wait Wut]

5. Oooh! I know, I know!!!

'Cause I done it mahself!

I didn't change one bit. The only thing that changed was what I believed and how I viewed holidays. Other than that, I was still the same sweet, lovable, compassionate person as always.

You see, the thing is, people with true 'values' or 'morals' don't learn them from a book. They feel them. I didn't need someone to tell me that kicking the little boy in the shins was wrong. It made him cry. Making people feel bad is bad. On the other hand, sharing a giant chocolate chip cookie with him made him happy. I got it. I liked it better when people were happy so I went out of my way to make people smile.

Jesus was just a good friend. Kind of like a big brother. He and his dad didn't teach me anything that I couldn't figure out on my own. When I gave up Christianity, I didn't give up on myself. I just found other books to read.

[okasha]

7. It would mean repudiating a huge part of my cultural heritage.

It would mean becoming white.

[Phillip McCleod]

10. bullshit. how does not *believing* make you 'white'.

that's a fairly offensive statement to make on a progressive discussion board.

[okasha]

12. Perhaps I should have said

European, or European-American.

But the fact is that atheism is a largely white, male phenomenon. I have no desire to lose my identity as a Native American woman by adopting more of white culture than I already have. Take it as offensive if you choose.

[dimbear]

15. Most atheists are Asian. n/t

[okasha]

17. I'll modify my statement.

Most atheists in the United States are white and male.

[Phillip McCleod]

20. keep modifying. you'll get there.

i have *faith* in you.

..

fact is, i live in the west. i know what you *meant*..

..many on this site may not.

it's alright. in the sense that you meant it, you are no doubt correct. doesn't change that even your beliefs are probably warped by now. look at the Taos pueblo.. still beholden to colonial spanish traditions that don't permit women to vote in sovereign elections. boys as young as 13 can vote, but grandma aged 113 cannot.. sure she can vote for u.s. rep. & sen. & prez. and all that. but not for the colonial spanish catholic governor.

that's today. indian country. u.s.a.

there is no black.

there is no white.

only human.

[okasha]

21. That's not all Indian country, Philip.

My people are matrilineal and--official pronouncements to the contrary-matriarchal. Nor only do women vote, we elect women to office. Our late Principal Chief was a woman, Wilma Mankiller. (Her actual title in Cherkee was «Head Beloved Woman.»)

The tradition I grew up in was passed down from the remnant of the Eastern Band that escaped the Removal. My grandfather and great grandfather were shamans. I can't swear that it's in pristine pre-Columbian form because some things have become pan-Indian. But that's more cross-pollination than corruption.

[Phillip McCleod]

19. i choose to take it as offensive.

how does that make you feel?

[okasha]

22. Since we seem to be beginning ro communicate,

it makes me feel like withholding the response I would otherwise make.

[LostOne4Ever]

24. Atheism has no culture

European-American culture is theistic. I have had it forced on me so I think I would know

The only thing that unites atheists is a lack of theism. We have no culture, we have no common morals, we have no common political ideology.

We can be liberals, libertarians, and even....wait scratch that last one I was about to mention. I can't see any of us being socially conservative

What makes atheism in North America seem to be a mainly white/male phenomenon is that atheism is highly connected to being economically well off. When you aren't on the verge of starving from day to day you are more likely to doubt. In America, this niche is primarily going to be white males due to the privileged that comes with being on top of the food chain.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. Wtf?

Only white people are non-believers? Seriously?

[Mariana]

38. And all non-believers are white, too, I guess.

No matter what color they may appear to be, or where they originate from, or who their parents are.

What I got from that post was that non-belief in and of itself isn't a bad thing. It's only a bad thing because it's associated (by that particular poster) with white people.

[LiberalAndProud]

26. I understand how you would feel that way.

I attended a Lakota wedding ceremony as a member of the wedding party. It was beautiful and moving ritual, and I understand how traditional religious ritual would be a cherished part of your heritage.

I have to wonder though, to what degree has your heritage already been diluted by European culture? Everything in the wedding ceremony and the setting had meaning, I was told. 13 poles for the teepee symbolizing Christ at the center and the 12 apostles. So ... one tradition merges with another and a new heritage is born. Still, it was lovely to be a part of. If I were still religious, I would want to worship there.

[rug]

35. I'm going to a sweat lodge ceremony next month run by a Lakota.

He is literally a card-carrying member of the Native American Church and has an exemption for peyote.

The destruction of Native American culture by Europeans is a very real thing. I admire those who are defending every remaining fragment.

[LiberalAndProud]

36. My brother has been adopted by a member of the tribe.

That, too, is deeply meaningful. Still, not without some measure of controversy within the tribe, I'm sure. Peyote was a part of wedding ceremony as well. The ceremony and reception lasted 24 hours. I was deeply enriched by the experience.

[rug]

37. Wow, 24 hours. Congrats to them both.

[Phillip McCleod]

8. now there's a good question.

having tried it both ways, all i can say is, 'yes and no'.

inwardly, one's experience of one's own inner rumblings *feel* different, but what had changed in me was not my interests.. clearly i'm still interested in religion, right? here i am. i still read cryptic mystical writings, though i believe not a whit of it.

what has changed, inwardly, is perspective. point of view, looking inwardly at the same person, with the same skills, talents, etc. the real question then is what does that change of perspective change? the change of POV cascades down the chain of one's train of thoughts.

for instance when i was devout, i had many thoughts about gods..

/**digression**
as i mentioned elsewhere, i tried religions on for size, and some of them were pantheistic, so lets be fair.. there's more than one god, no matter *what* you believe. you might believe there is only one god. in fact there are lots of them. you might not believe in them, but you can't deny they exist as ideas in other people's minds, the same as your god. there *are* in point of fact, many gods. whether they exist outside the minds of believers is another question altogether.
**end digression**/

..now gods occur to me only when that's the topic of discussion with people, and they are qualitatively different.

..

iow, 'yes and no'.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. I think the lack of actual difference between the two groups of people is the main proof

that religions are without actual merit. If a faith really had divine nature,surely that divine quality would lead to something that is not found in those who are interested in something other than codification of beliefs. Should there not be some evident superiority in some area if one group is practicing The Way and the other is just shacking up? One would think so. People run about saying they have a personal, one on one dialog with the construct of the divine from their faith, but that and a dollar seems to buy you a doughnut. Are they kinder? Nope. Are there jobs they will not do? Nope. Are they living longer, are they divorcing less, are their kids more successful? Nope. Are 'believers' free of alcohol or other addictions? Nope. Criminal activity? Nope.
If 'having God' means you are just like those who 'have no God' perhaps there is not really a there there....

[goldent]

13. I think I would change a little over time - perhaps like a "death of 1000 cuts"

I always feel very good about our world, and what I could do to improve it, after mass. I think not getting this weekly "pep talk" would have long term effects. More immediately, I would be less involved in service activities.

[Shadrach]

16. The change from belief to non-belief is likely gradual

I'm sure the change is not overnight. So I would assume the person changes gradually as he/she evolves.

Whether you change from believer to non-believer, from atheism to faith, or not change religious position, you will change through the years anyway in a process known as growth.

[Still Blue in PDX]

18. It's a lot easier now that I've given up on religion.

I won't say I'm a nonbeliever.

I went from nonbeliever to ardent Christian to wannabe Jew to Pantheist, and I don't really do much about my spirituality these days.

I'm not as happy as I was, but my husband, who IS a nonbeliever, is happier with me since I don't make him uncomfortable.

Nothing in my morality has changed. If anything, I feel more a sense that we are all in this world together than I did when I thought I had a handle on the one true religion.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. My lifestyle

Changed very very slightly. Stopped praying at night and such.

The way I thought about morality and right and wrong changed a lot. I was forced to consider what makes something good "good" and what made something bad "evil." Did i believe something was wrong just because that was the way I was brought up? Or was there a legitimate reason for it being considered bad?

I would often think "if this was a perfect world how would things be and why?"

[Newest Reality]

27. One option is available

but it certainly is not popular or prevalent in the modern vernacular of mainstream religious and secular thought and behavior.

Belief and non-belief can be seen to be related. They have a relative relationship, especially when it comes to comparison and debate.

Having believed and not believed in many views and attempts to simply reify various levels of higher-order abstract thought and interpretations of emotional reactivity to them, it seems that there is a basic space that contains such activity.

In fact, believing, seen for what it is, can be a creative and enjoyable experience when the views involved are not dogmatic or authoritarian concerning the control of the lives and behavior of others. The correlative negation of believing is also very useful in the sense that, not only can it break-down dogmatic, fundamentalist views--as a solvent, so to speak--it also comes to a point where it is potentially able to explore the negation of itself as a methodical antipode to the realm of abstraction-at-large which our species is prone to in the sense that we tend to obsessively fixate on ideas and definitions and contrive a sense of existence that trades direct experience for concepts.

It is very possible and refreshing, to see the nature of opposites and their interactions and then, gain a perspective where extreme views, (theist vs. atheist, et al) do not require one to subscribe fully to either side of the polar nature of the debate. In that sense, one can neither be a theist, atheist, agnostic, or even a gnostic, but rather, aware of their various aspects and relationships in the collective arena of dynamic debate and counterpoints.

I call that Basic Space.

[Vinnie From Indy]

28. Well, it sure has cut down on the amount of time I spend

carefully examining my toast!

Cheers!

[cbayer]

30. I consider myself closest to an apatheist.

I don't know if there is a god or not. I do not expect to ever know that and I don't think the existence of lack thereof would change my life much at all.

OTOH, having been brought up in the church, I would say that it had a substantial influence on who I am at this point. Would I be that much different if I had not been? Hard to say.

Hope you are doing well, my friend.

[CrispyQ]

31. I got to sleep in on Sunday monrings.

Seriously though, the real benefit for me was I started questioning all the other bullshit I'd been told since birth.

[Deep13]

32. Less stress, anxiety over hell, inability to conform to an impossible standard,...

...the impossibility of reconciling religious claims with reality. More freedom to question things.

[rurallib]

33. went from believer to non-believer and things got decidedly better

for one thing the reason for our lives became much clearer, there was almost no reason to hate people based on beliefs. I could go on. for instance - trying to say I believed in a lot of hocus-pocus went out the window.
I was on the a waffling wire for a long time until one day things just cleared up and have stayed clear for years.