Not All Like That (Dan Savage, NALT video)

[pinto]

NALT homepage -

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/2013/09/introducing-the-not-all-like-that-nalt-christians-project/

[cbayer]

1. This is a great project and I am glad you are posting it.

It was posted the day the program was released, but by someone who was not very friendly towards it.

[MellowDem]

2. Avoids the real conundrum for liberal Christians...

that is, how their personal beliefs contradict with their religion. The Bible is a terribly regressive tome. Having liberal Christians tell conservative Christians that they're wrong on gay marriage leads to a theological argument based on that very conservative tome, and those arguments are useless, given they are based on irrational thinking to begin with.

It is the type of thinking promoted by most all religions everywhere (faith) that is the source of such people as Pat Robertson and ignorance, hatred and fear of groups of people like homosexuals. The only difference is in how seriously people take the claims they assert. That is, how honest they are with themselves. Most aren't too honest.

Personally, I'm tired of tip toeing around people's intellectual dishonesty on this topic and ignoring the crux of the problem as a result.

I've seen the theological arguments of liberal Christians using the Bible to back their positions on homosexuality, and they're just as illogical and irrelevant. Sure, I'm glad they're on our side, but it's based on bad reasoning that is really no different than their conservative counterparts. I suppose we should take any help we can get etc. etc., but the crux of the problem is not being addressed.

I find taking a position based on "faith" to be morally repugnant, because taking positions without reasoning or logic can lead to many bad things, even if the position happens to be one you agree with for different (or any) reason.

The real problem is that anyone is taking a book as the word of god in the first place. While I could try to finger through the Bible, as contradictory and nonsensical as it is, to come up with some Biblically based reason to support my position in responding to those that use it against my position, doing so surrenders logic or reasoning in any following discussion and supports that morally repugnant way of thinking.

[pinto]

3. I see your points about religions overall. Yet is support for equality "morally repugnant"?

Personally, I don't take the bible as the word of god. It's a series of pieces written by numerous individuals. Over quite a long period of time. And I find the stories about Jesus, among others, supportive. I'm not real conversant in other religions.

Yet, I am conversant with many atheists, nones and none of the above who recognize the humanistic take that runs through the "New Testament" stories. They, as I, don't find them morally repugnant.

I don't take a position based on faith. In regards equality, I take a position based on the voices who support that. My own included.

[MellowDem]

4. I find faith morally repugnant....

If someone believes in equality just because a book says that equality is good, then that is not a critical way of thinking and is open to a lot of abuse.

Basically, the reason NALTs are usually quiet and whisper their support of gay marriage etc. is because they're bumping up against cognitive dissonance and know their position is not strong. They know the Bible says a lot of backward things. They know they pick and choose what they like form the Bible, which is not consistent or intellectually honest, and yet they still claim the title of Christian.

They want all the perceived benefits of Christianity, the community, family tradition, the massive societal privilege, etc. without having to actually own up to what Christianity is defined by, it's belief system based on the Bible. They don't want to be accountable, and really, what liberal person would want to have to defend the Bible as part of their ideological framework? It would take some seriously poor apologetics and terrible logic, so I don't blame them for wanting to be discreet, I just wish they would get the outrage to be honest with the,selves and drop the title of a belief system they do t believe in.

I don't really care about coddling privilege and comfort for people who are intellectually dishonest. The name of the campaign is unfortunate, as it seems more like a whine (don't associate me with those conservative Christians!) addressing the shame of liberal Christians rather than an allied organization of the LGBT community.