Pope blasts abortion after decrying focus on rules

[trotsky]

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-blasts-abortion-decrying-focus-rules-131410774.html

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has encouraged Catholic doctors to refuse to perform abortions, issuing a strong pro-life message after blasting at the church's obsession with "small-minded rules" that are driving the faithful away.

Francis appeared to be offering an olive branch to the more doctrine-minded, conservative wings of the church by citing Vatican teaching on defending the unborn during an audience Friday with Catholic gynecologists.

He denounced today's "throw-away culture" that justifies disposing of lives. He said: "Every child that isn't born, but is unjustly condemned to be aborted, has the face of Jesus Christ, has the face of the Lord."

In an interview published Thursday, Francis urged the church to show more mercy and preach less about rules in a radical shift in emphasis for a pope.

It's a great PR campaign the new guy is running, but at this point that's still what it is - PR. He is turning right around and assuring the conservative power structure that nothing is different.

[mwrguy]

1. He's still a religious tyrant

The iron fist is simply inside a pretty velvet glove.

[atreides1]

2. He's not as good as some think!

I was waiting for the other shoe to drop!

[Goblinmonger]

3. Good for the Pope. Thank you Pope Francis.

Oh.....wait......wrong thread.

Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.

[rug]

4. And?

Of course he declares abortion to be a moral wrong, as do many people. The only political issue is whether it should be legal, not whether it's morally right, morally wrong, or morally neutral.

[Goblinmonger]

7. So

was the RCC correct in withholding sacraments from those politicans that supported abortion? Knowingly helping to cause the murder of an innocent baby would be a mortal sin so they shouldn't be taking communion. You're OK with that?

[rug]

8. That's a different question. Why do you care who the Church gives sacraments to?

Do you have difficulty separating moral theology from social legislation?

How do you feel about this group? Nary a sacrament among them.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

[Goblinmonger]

9. No it's not.

That's the church trying to affect politics. I doubt they go out of the way to find out who else in the congregation has worked to support abortion in some tertiary way and then publicly deny them a sacrament.

Hasn't gone unnoticed that you didn't answer the question.

So you don't complain about my lack of answers:
1. I don't give a shit about who the Church gives sacraments to if it is private. Once they make a deal about it in the media, then I get to voice my opinion.
2. I have no difficulty separating moral theology from social legislation. Apparently the church does. And absent an answer from you, it appears that you may as well.
3. I have no problem with that group at all. They can think and believe and do what they wish. If you can't see the difference between that group and the RCC and the Pope, then you probably need to do some reflection.

I'm done answering your questions until you answer mine. Do you support the RCC in their withholding of sacraments to those politicians that have supported abortion?

[rug]

11. Of course it is.

But this will not be the first stupid question I've answered.

Only a handful of diocesan bishops have pronounced that so-called "pro-abortion" Catholic politicians should be denied Communion. But that, you already knew. As to those few who have made such declarations, its classic overreaching, unsupportable in both Canon Law and Church documents on conscience.

Now, if you do in fact have "no problem at all" with that group, I can only assume, charitably, that you have not read the link.

Though I am a Republican and a conservative (both social and economic), I intend for this site to be nonpartisan and nondiscriminatory. AAPL is for all nontheists regardless of political affiliation, political alignment, age, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, etc.; the more diversity, all the better. Even so, there are three requirements (explained in further detail on the Membership Form page) for AAPL membership; one must:

1) be an avowed atheist, agnostic, or other nontheist
2) oppose abortion and desire its abolition (with or without exceptions)
3) support nonviolence as the sole legitimate means of achieving the goals of the pro-life movement

[Goblinmonger]

12. Why would I care what they do?

Hell, for a pro-life group, I think item #3 makes them incredibly good. I don't agree with their stance and wouldn't support them with my time and/or money, but I have no problem with them as a group.

[rug]

13. Then I presume you have "no problem" with Number 2.

2) oppose abortion and desire its abolition (with or without exceptions)

[Goblinmonger]

14. I am aware that you are looking to get a jury to vote to hide my posts, but no, "no problem"

People have the right to think that abortion is bad and they have the right to try and get it to be illegal. I don't agree with them. I won't and don't support them. But why would I argue that a group like that can't organize in this country. That's fucking insane.

But since we're on it, why do you support an organization with your time and money that opposes abortion and actively (as indicated by the most recent declaration from your Pope) tries to make it illegal? Why don't you have a problem with that organization to which you belong since you seem to think it a major sin that I feel groups can form that have different opinions than me? At least I don't support them with my time and/or money.

Good luck with the alert on this one. This will be my last shot I give you.

[rug]

15. You have extremely inconsistent standards.

People have the right to think that abortion is bad and they have the right to try and get it to be illegal. I don't agree with them. I won't and don't support them. But why would I argue that a group like that can't organize in this country. That's fucking insane.

You've completely contradicted yourself.

Don't worry, I'm not alerting. I hope it stays.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Again

If you don't see the difference between private citizens organizing and a religion of the magnitude and power of the RCC using their bully pulpit to force their moral standards on everyone, then we really have nothing to discuss.

So, again, you avoid the question. How do you reconcile your support of the RCC and their overt stance on abortion? I just said that group has the right to do what they want. I don't support them with my time and/or money. Same can't be said for you and your support of the RCC.

[rug]

17. So you see it as a matter of degree.

What was that about enabling extreme groups by not denouncing them?

[niyad]

5. just like the gop--he wants to change the wording, but not the ideology behind it. quit talking

so much about gays and abortion, but do nothing to actually change position.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Thanks for pointing this fact out. He's a duplicitoius self promoter who says things his

supporters think are 'positive steps for gays and women' then always says the opposite just as casually within a few days. His comments that were so 'pro gay' do not make his vulgar, vicious and religiously exploitative attacks on gay people any less repulsive.
Those who promote this man promote a hypocrite.

[trotsky]

10. Even his "positive steps" messages are hollow once you parse them properly.

He said "who am I to judge" homosexuals. But the context in which he said it reaffirmed exactly the same policy - he wouldn't judge gay people who behave according to what the church teaches about it: you can be attracted to someone the same sex as you, you just can't ever marry that person and/or have sex with them. As long as you don't try to do either of those things, he won't judge your homosexuality! Ain't that nice?

[skepticscott]

18. The pope should have been a politician

He's a master at manipulating gullible, needy people by telling them what they desperately want to hear, and letting them believe what they desperately need to be true. Reality notwithstanding.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. "Catholic doctor"..."Catholic gynecologists", words that don't belong together...

if you can't put your patient's health and interests first, you should NEVER be in the medical field in any capacity.

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. Hysterically enough, The Catholic League agrees

Bill Donohue certainly gets Pope Francis' scheme:

“The pope is a reformer, but not a revolutionary,” Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Civil and Religious Rights, told CNN’s Chris Cuomo.

“This is the problem with the left," Dohonue continued, "they are trying to take what the pope said and then run with it.”

Donohue, a caustic and sometimes controversial critic of people he perceives as anti-Catholic, said the pope’s remarks won’t silence him.

“There’s nothing the pope said that should give relief to people who say all of a sudden now that conservatives should shut up,” Donahue said. “We’re not going to shut up because we’re in consonant compliance with what the pope said. “

After all, conservatives say, it’s not like the pope changed Catholic doctrine in Thursday’s interview.

As much as it pains me to say it, Donohue is right. For whatever reason, our friends on the left really want Francis to be the good guy who wipes away all the embarrassing doctrines of the RCC, so much that they are practically doing all of his PR work for him. All he has to do is stand in front of a microphone and babble some half-hearted platitudes about treating people with dignity and respect and half the posters on this forum will practically trip over themselves to praise the man as a goddamn hero.

My frustration knows no bounds.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

21. Rome shocker! Pope against abortion

Dozens amazed!