"not all like that"

[handmade34]

http://notalllikethat.org

[rrneck]

1. That's nice and I understand but...

[handmade34]

2. but...

... I just posted something interesting I came across... I am a former seminarian and know all too well what's out there...

Christians come in all shapes and sizes and I still believe that fundamentalists (of all religions) are doing more than their share of destroying society and the environment

[rrneck]

4. I'm not necessarily bashing faith in Christianity,

well, not at the moment. But I am interested in why any religion strays from it's beneficial function in culture.

I don't see any real difference between the problems of religion in our culture and this issue:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023720586

[handmade34]

5. "beneficial function in culture"

I am not prepared for a lengthy discussion because work is beckoning but... you make a very discussion worthy observation (analogy: football/hazardous activity) and statement about "beneficial function" seemingly to assume that there is a beneficial function of religion (history tells us otherwise) ---or is there??

I thank you for bringing these things up... I am interested because the Conservative Christian vote (and money from same) are greatly altering society... ...anti-abortion, involvement in the Middle East, LGBT issues, etc...

...this little essay reminds me of the 20 page paper I wrote years back to get into Seminary "I Love My Story"


http://dcperry.com/2011/08/21/writing/the-rebirth-of-slick/

That’s when it all unraveled...I tried to hold it together. I spent my summers during high school as a counselor at a Protestant camp. I went to a Baptist college, where I studied English literature and tried not to get expelled for skipping chapel and listening to unwholesome music. I prayed and cried and begged, but I felt like I could see the wires. The illusion was shattered. I clung to the traditions I grew up in because they were my culture. They mattered to me because they mattered to the people I loved. But they were just stories. And the people I loved didn’t love my stories. And so I didn’t want to love theirs.

And we’re back...I’m not 12 anymore. Hell, I’m not 30 anymore. And those stories that I shunned for being nothing but stories still tickle the back of my brain. As a child, my world was undone when I recognized that the stories my parents loved were just as untrue as the stories I loved. As an avid reader and storyteller, I couldn’t accept the illusion. But stories only truly exist in the space between the teller and the listener. If the listener is cynical, the teller can’t get a word in. If the listener is gullible, any story will do. But if the story is good and the listener is engaged, whether or not the story is true couldn’t be less relevant.

I’m wrestling with what story is. And what a storyteller is. And what kind of storyteller I can be. I can’t be an honest broker unless I take some stabs at the stories I was told in my formative years...

[rrneck]

6. People have to believe in something

the question is not whether they believe, but in what and why.

I hear you about work. This whole sleeping indoors and eating every day thing really cramps my style.

ETA

And your excerpt is very interesting. People certainly need to wrap a narrative around everything.

[cleanhippie]

14. While it may be the fundamentalists who are causing the problems, do you not see the culpability of

Those with a more liberal view who use religion and scripture as the justification for their viewpoint?

[cbayer]

7. That's exactly the point of this program - no all christians are like "that".

The problem is the false extrapolation that, say, all christians are creationists by some. While the numbers are too high, your graph clearly shows that that is not true.

[rrneck]

9. Certainly not all Cristians are like that...

but it appears that 39% of the population is stuck in the fourteenth century. Whose fault is that?

It's not the fault of the Christian faith per se, any more than guns cause people to shoot each other. It has to do with how the faith is used, and in this country the vast majority of Christianity's cultural utility is the source of a revenue stream. Now, maybe a minority of Christians can turn that ship around, but I doubt it. Monotheism in general and Christianity in particular came along not long after we invented money, probably caused by the same cultural and environmental factors.

Although I obviously haven't' made an extensive study of the subject, the differences between the Christian faith and the Jewish faith are very interesting. Christianity allied itself with the rising power that was Rome while the Jewish people got the stuffing kicked out of them for about two thousand years. But my experience of the practice of the Christian faith leaves me, and a growing number of other people, cold. It's always some dude in a suit telling a bunch of people what to do. My experience of the Jewish faith, although not in the Jewish temple but the way it is practiced in Jewish homes, seems to me much more spiritually fulfilling and intellectually stimulating. I wonder if the defeat of the Jewish faith in competition for acceptance in ancient Rome and it's subsequent banishment to small secret gatherings of the faithful saved the faith from the corruption of money and power that has dominated the Christian faith for two thousand years.

It would be a rich irony indeed if Christianaty failed for the same reasons the Jewish faith continues to persevere as a source of genuine faith and hope for people. We may be on the cusp of the end of a kind of imperial mercantilism that began with Croesus and that fall may spell the end Christianity as any sort of viable faith, leaving the Jewish faith as it began, preserved in the amber of it's own persecution.

[cbayer]

10. Whose fault is that? I don't know that it's anyone's fault,

but whatever we can do to keep creationism out of the educational system is a positive.

This program is meant to combat one of the religious rights most egregious positions, and that is the one that would deny GLBT people civil rights.

While I appreciate your taking the time to provide this information, I remain more interested in what the liberal/progressive community can do to counter the harm done by the religious right. I think programs like this do just that and merit support from both believers and non-believers.

[rrneck]

11. I don't think the Christian faith can right the wrongs of the world until it gets its house in order

And the chances of that happening are pretty slim. It's marketing 101. The religious right has so polluted the Christian brand nobody can see around them. Progressive Christians are like New Coke. The people that didn't like Coke Classic won't give a shit, and the people that did like it won't buy it. Add to that fact that exigent circumstances related to international economics, resource depletion, the inertia of wealth, and changes in a zeitgeist that haven't happened for 2500 years may make the entire enterprise moot. The triumph of progressive Christianity may be stillborn.

[cbayer]

12. Here's the thing. There is no entity called the "Christian faith".

The religious right and liberal/progressive christians don't see themselves as part of the same thing at all. They would like to eliminate each other.

Progressive christians aren't like the new coke. They've been around a long time and have a lot of adherents. The mistakes they made were in not fighting back when the religious right began making political inroads and in being complacent about what was happening.

It's not stillborn, it's just recovering from a lengthy illness.

[rrneck]

13. A good question to ask is

"What is the nature of the conflict between factions within Christianity and what are those factions doing about it?"

The religious right and liberal/progressive Christians don't see themselves as part of the same thing at all. They would like to eliminate each other.

It doesn't matter how they see themselves, it matters how others see them. If either group is actually doing anybody any good, then it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. Now, by doing anybody any good, I don't mean political advocacy. Political advocacy is the exercise of power, and "trying to eliminate each other" is what has been getting religion into trouble for thousands of years. The practice of religious faith is about making people feel good about working together. That's it.

So if liberal/progressive Christians are engaged in an ideological struggle for control they are more interested in the ownership of the brand than in helping people. Not only can the public see it, they expect it because it's the same thing everybody else is doing. They can't tell any difference between Christianity 2.0 and 2.1, so why switch? Especially when there are much more interesting brands of emotional glue on offer in the marketplace of ideas. From the point of view of the public, there is no difference between Christianity, professional football, or Survivor. They are all just products that offer x emotional involvement for y price.

[cbayer]

15. I certainly agree about making people feel good about working together

and about how one religion trying to destroy the other being problematic for thousands of years.

And I see your point about ownership of the brand.

But I think that many people can see the difference in the way these two groups interpret the same scripture. One has used it limit the rights of others, while the other has used it to fight for the rights of others.

Most christians probably don't care either way, but there are clearly two camps when it comes to political objectives like civil rights and social justice. They break down pretty much along party based ideological lines.

It is often said that the religious left must accept some responsibility for allowing the religious right to intrude on the rights of others, and there is some validity to that.

That is why I think programs like NALT are important and have the potential to enlighten people as to the differences among different groups of christians.

[rrneck]

17. I (somewhat jealously) applaud your optimism

And indeed solutions can come from the most unlikely of places.

[LostOne4Ever]

3. Anything that helps bring an end to the religious right

and their hate filled attempts to legislate their bigotry is a good thing in my book!

More power to you!

[cbayer]

8. Excellent program. It's been posted about several times in this group, but gets little attention.

That's unfortunate, but not unexpected.

[trotsky]

16. What exactly would satisfy you, cbayer?

Every time this is posted, a chorus of "good for them!" replies appears. Is that not sufficient? Do you want all opposing viewpoints silenced - would that be OK for you then?

I cannot figure out what exactly you want to do other than divide and control. And since you refuse to communicate, I can only assume that's correct. But you'll never control others, no matter how much you try.